Website Design Complaints/Suggestions

[nickson104]

Originally Posted by Ryan Zelazny

As for the hidden keywords on the RWS site, I have no clue with that. On my original copy on my hard drive I don't even have any meta tags added.

Perhaps someone thought it would be a good April Fools?

[Aro_]

and i didnt have any troubles you stated there except waiting when i first come there

I'm viewing this through the perspective of a first-time viewer. No doubt you've had time to figure out and get used to this website; the casual visitor won't be as friendly or forgiving.

The Text is fine in size... It is not hard to see, and if you are experiencing troubles you could easily zoom in OR just above your post that you are typing there is a size and font buttons see? we could type them bigger if you like?

I'm not thinking about me here; I'm thinking about the folks who venture into Reverie and have no idea how to zoom, or those large groups who use IE5-7 and still have to deal with a "Text Size" option. A majority of net users, including the people who Reverie are trying to market their game towards (teens), don't know these things; they aren't experts, and you shouldn't expect them to be.

A web designer should understand that most people could care less about how to use or figure out the browser; they just want to look at the website without squinting or without having trouble getting to the next page. If they can't do that, they leave. Who's losing a customer? Reverie. Professional game studios should care about their *entire audience*; excluding people when you don't have to is careless and lazy.

however, the flash is staying, I believe. People who can't view flash simply haven't downloaded flash. Many companies are using flash these days, most of the sites for new games use flash, like Mass Effect 2 and Assassin's Creed 2.

If every game studio roster jumped off of a bridge because they thought it was cool, would you? That's the thing here; this isn't about who else is jumping the bandwagon *pretending* viewers or markets care about flash. It's not even about what *you* think; it's about your customer. You're hurting your website by making it entirely flash-driven; there's no link-colors to show users where they've clicked, no back button, poor site indexing (it can't properly index if there's only one page), no print option, and users with disabilities are screwed. You kill usability for what... goofy animations that nobody except you cares about? You'll find that *very few* willing to wait for the site to load to view a website that they don't need to view, while also trading in the fundamentals of their browser experience for it. This site takes more than it gives.

Regarding your examples: MassEffect is far more usable than the Reverie sites, because they use both flash and XHTML -- you don't even have to view their stupid, slow-loading video if you don't want to, because plenty of information is conveyed through text alone. (I still regard it as a usability nightmare, but less of one than the two Reverie sites I've listed.) Only design with flash if you know how to use it. Whoever designed these websites clearly has no idea how to design a website, much less a flash variation for a video game.

There are dozens of gaming sites that use flash sparingly, and prove to be more useable because of it, like 0AD, BigHugeGames, the Age Community, and heck, the entire HeavenGames network. All of these sites are more usable *and* do a better job at conveying their message than Reverie, hands down.

On some forums, you can change the layout, colors and other things of the forums for your own personal preference.

With the default preference as something that's easier on the eyes, sure. If people enjoy small text, minimal visibility and low-contrast colors, they can switch it back to this theme if they like.

We do have a website designer, a very good one IMO (Ryan Zelazny).

I haven't seen his new site, but flash is a bad medium unless you can remedy the problems with a pure flash design; give users a way to increase the font size, give them the ability to use the back button, and provide an HTML alternative to the flash design. The goal of designers is to make websites accessible to the largest audience possible; if they fail that, it doesn't matter how pretty the images are or how advanced their site looks, because they aren't doing their jobs. Appearances *aren't* everything, and if you have yet to understand this, I'm a very sad panda. For a website like Reverie, which is petitioning for a Heaven at HG, I'd expect them to dedicate time towards accomodating the largest audience possible; or else, how could they expect HG staff to dedicate their time to a game that is being very, very poorly marketed?

A forum's main purpose is not to entertain you with its visual effects but to inform you and help a community form and discus subjects like this.

I understand the purpose of an internet forum; but pretending that new viewers will tolerate a visually-intolerant forum, just to get informed, is selfish and stupid.

If a design company is willing to lose a large percentage of their audience for a tedious, stupid reason like "using flash to stay competitive", what does that say about your company's development skills? How many user-friendly features *in the game* will you kill or what audiences will you alienate just so your game looks cool?

[Andy Joslin]

Aro, you are assuming one thing: almost everyone agrees with you. Every person I've shown the Dawn of Fantasy site too (even non-techy people) love it. I thought it was great the first time too, it gave me a good impression and made me want the game.

We do care about the public, but we also care about making a lasting first impression. If we push away the 2% of non-flash users and the small amount of dialup users (most of which don't play online games anyway) but at the same time draw in many many people because of a really high-quality website, so be it.

Oh, and I had absolutely no problem with the colors on the Reverie forums when I first joined..In fact I liked them. So have other people I have forwarded to this site.

If a design company is willing to lose a large percentage of their audience for a tedious, stupid reason like "using flash to stay competitive", what does that say about your company's development skills? How many user-friendly features *in the game* will you kill or what audiences will you alienate just so your game looks cool?

We do not use flash to stay competitive. We use flash because we believe it is a very good medium.
Aro, you are getting heated up and starting to insult us because you want to prove your point. Calm down a bit. Also remember that not everyone agrees with you. You are trying to speak for the average user who visits this site when you are not the average user. You are a very internet-savvy user who has dialup, two huge differences with a majority of people who will visit our game's site.

[Kire]

Originally Posted by Aro_

Whoever designed these websites clearly has no idea how to design a website, much less a flash variation for a video game.

Ok you gone little too far now here, you know other ppl out here are also humans just like you and have feelings (so it is not proper to insult everyone around if you feel so)..... how would you like/feel if someone who think just because he dont like you/your work comes on some forum or in real life, in front of ppl and starts to flame you, again just because he didnt like your idea and thought he can do better or have better ideas? like in school you have a presentation and teacher gives you good mark and your schoolmate points at ya and says it was crapy, you dont deserve the mark just because the same reasons as before? i bet you wouldnt feel good (well teacher/ppl would not change their opinion just because that nor the person who flame ya, but you would feel bad).

As for the point, where in your opinion he has no idea... well Reveire has their own choice who will create specific thing and if they like that than its ok... no you and me or anyone other have the right to insult or flame him that he suck if they like him (tho if he really dont have idea he would been fired or not hired at first place). As here me and MANY others think that, even now that we dont have new version of webside out, it is good one and the work of an talented person/s. And bdw noeone can do a thing that will make ppl like it 100%.

Here you just show as how much inmature you are in your own constructive post.....
And for the last i expect your apology to them and to take your words back.
(tho you can just say you would do it different and not insult if ppl arent doing as you want)

And some moral story of the day which doesnt stack to this post. Isnt nice if you smile to someone or just say he is good even if he didnt do something good and make than his whole day better ?=). if i remember i can recal if someone said how good i did somethin or how good i was in something it made that day 100% better or even for few days i was like sunflower. In these times there is too little meaning in relationships between ppl and knowing how little we can do to make one persons day better (even if you just smile to him when you are passing him on the road, you never know how much it would mean that to him or what kind of problems he have). And no money or our selfish thoughts should mean more than other ppl.
And isnt better if someone do something bad that than you help him that he will do it good instead just of flaming him and making this way yourself looking more important? Ppl nowdays just look how to be competitive, make money and make themselves more important than others or just showing how good they are and others bad.

And for the end i at least always before i am not sure if something will hurt others, i ask myself how would i feel if the same thing would do others to me (but even this can fail). And no hurting ppl for x reason is not good or acceptable.

[The Witch King of Angmar]

Guys, lets not try and fight here. Obviously there can be a difference of opinion but don't turn it into an insulting thread, there is no need for it. As fans for this game, we should be conversing with each other in an intelligent and constructive manner, not fighting.

[Aro_]

Aro, you are assuming one thing: almost everyone agrees with you.

Any web designer or e-marketing/usability guru would agree. They'd be crazy if they didn't. And please understand, this isn't a matter in which you would agree with me, because it's one-sided; but I'm saying outright, as a professional web designer, your site hardly meets the standards of a growing game development company. It's actually backtracking and scaring away customers, and that will affect how you operate in the long run.

but at the same time draw in many many people because of a really high-quality website, so be it.

You define high quality as a pretty site with good graphics. I define high quality as a website that's both pretty and everybody can use it. I am *not* insulting you guys or your company; it's not an insult if I think the Reverie web designer is inexperienced and the company itself is highly inexperienced at e-marketing. Rather, it's an unflattering observation. I would like you guys to understand how people use your website so you could become more effective on the online medium, which appears to be your *only* medium; the suggestions I gave and problems I listed are serious. I'm not goofing around or trolling you, and I wouldn't have posted here if that was my intention. As a first time visitor and somebody who strongly values website usability, I can accurately represent the sentiments of average users. (Sadly, they can't represent themselves; any average users are likely to have ran away after trying to navigate this dreadful website.)

Ok you gone little too far now here, you know other ppl out here are also humans just like you and have feelings

I apologize for my overly blunt statements, but I'm not going to fluff it up for decency's sake. I honestly view it as an awful website. I would think honesty along with constructive critique would be refreshing.

how would you like/feel if someone who think just because he dont like you/your work comes on some forum or in real life, in front of ppl and starts to flame you, again just because he didnt like your idea and thought he can do better or have better ideas?

I value it; it's called "constructive criticism", and it's hardly flaming. I know for a fact that people out there can design a better site than me, and whenever I design a website, I make sure to get criticism from various sources so I know what to improve upon. Reverie doesn't do that; thus, the designs are ineffective. I understand it's insulting for a designer to hear blunt comments like "you have an awful website"; but I say nothing that I don't back up with suggestions that *would* help.

[Kire]

Originally Posted by Aro_

I value it; it's called "constructive criticism", and it's hardly flaming. I know for a fact that people out there can design a better site than me, and whenever I design a website, I make sure to get criticism from various sources so I know what to improve upon. Reverie doesn't do that; thus, the designs are ineffective. I understand it's insulting for a designer to hear blunt comments like "you have an awful website"; but I say nothing that I don't back up with suggestions that *would* help.

Constructive criticism can be done also without the part where you say to person who do that for a living or studied it or x reason that he is dumb, that he does not have an idea how to create websites.

Here for example ... i study archaeology and here can be many different opinions about specific stuff. And there is one person who did a theory about something but i think hes wrong and i have different. I wont go to him and flame him because my idea have more supporting facts, like he was wasting his time on studying or he is looser or things like that, but rather i will go too him and say my opinions, my argues and we would talk about it saying each other opinion and how we did get to that. but at end it is his choice to leave or keep his idea and i must respect that, because we do have our own different view over things and can be some things more important than others or many many other things.

I am not saying that constructive criticism-arguing about different ideas is bad just you started wrong way. First you must know every person has its own mind and can make decision on their own and we all have different things we like or dont like. in your post it is written like you force them to change that like they have no choice.
And it is very restricted to person about what you like or not. Reverie and some ppl think its good website, on other side you and few others who think different. I see here 2 different argues which are both thoughtful, reasonable and good and both have ups and downs, so it really doesnt matter so much about what to do, it is just matter what will the owner of this game choose and i think he did their idea. And about loosing ppl because of that ... few ppls gone and new few comes because of that so it isnt big deal.

And their site is atm my number 1 of what i seen in my life and many ppl as i see also think it is very good and ppl who would come first time it will be soo good the thing they see/saw they will want to know more despite any troubles you stated there. The ppl who refuse to look on this website because of that are the ones who wont really also play /like it. And as i saw new shots of new website it is just even more shockingly beautiful 10/10 or 5 stars whatever you want =).

Ok and here little help how you can do that "constructive criticism":
i have seen your website and there are few things that bothers me and would do it differently ...... (and you stated them here without any insults or attacks or things like you force them to change).
So here you dont loose your honesty or constructive criticism and make it better to read without hurting also anyone.....

[Dylan Bales]

Originally Posted by Aro_

Any web designer or e-marketing/usability guru would agree. They'd be crazy if they didn't. And please understand, this isn't a matter in which you would agree with me, because it's one-sided; but I'm saying outright, as a professional web designer, your site hardly meets the standards of a growing game development company. It's actually backtracking and scaring away customers, and that will affect how you operate in the long run.


You define high quality as a pretty site with good graphics. I define high quality as a website that's both pretty and everybody can use it. I am *not* insulting you guys or your company; it's not an insult if I think the Reverie web designer is inexperienced and the company itself is highly inexperienced at e-marketing. Rather, it's an unflattering observation. I would like you guys to understand how people use your website so you could become more effective on the online medium, which appears to be your *only* medium; the suggestions I gave and problems I listed are serious. I'm not goofing around or trolling you, and I wouldn't have posted here if that was my intention. As a first time visitor and somebody who strongly values website usability, I can accurately represent the sentiments of average users. (Sadly, they can't represent themselves; any average users are likely to have ran away after trying to navigate this dreadful website.)


I apologize for my overly blunt statements, but I'm not going to fluff it up for decency's sake. I honestly view it as an awful website. I would think honesty along with constructive critique would be refreshing.


I value it; it's called "constructive criticism", and it's hardly flaming. I know for a fact that people out there can design a better site than me, and whenever I design a website, I make sure to get criticism from various sources so I know what to improve upon. Reverie doesn't do that; thus, the designs are ineffective. I understand it's insulting for a designer to hear blunt comments like "you have an awful website"; but I say nothing that I don't back up with suggestions that *would* help.

So far, most people that I have heard from like the website, mostly the idea of being able to flip the pages. You are right, that having an html version of a website is a great idea as well. It's always great to get criticism from people, it took me a long time to ever want to take criticism; whenever I was making campaigns for AoM for fun, people used to call them crappy, telling me what to change, and say bad things about them, and I hated them for it, and almost gave up; I realize now that they were just trying to help, but I never really listened back then.

I doubt this company hired someone inexperience to design the website; the web designer was probably given instructions on what to make, and didn't design it alone, so it wasn't because of the web designer.

Also the website is old, and so is the flash version used on it, so the new website will update all of that.

I only wanted to work for Reverie because I saw the website of Dawn of Fantasy, and I thought the site was amazing; I saw screenshots of the game; I clicked a link I found in someone's signature on Heavengames to come to the website. I thought the game looked impressive, and I wanted to work for Reverie.

When I first went to the website, I was impressed by the page flipping feature of it, and the screenshots, and everything I saw there. Most people who have come here were impressed by something about the website, otherwise they wouldn't be here, other than the spammers and bots, but bots aren't people, so they don't count.

I think the forums are perfectly readable, but I guess you might have an older monitor, mine is flat screen. I still do think that it would be a great idea to allow changing of the forum theme, fonts, font size, etc.

[Joseph Visscher]

Originally Posted by Kire

If i remember i can recal if someone said how good i did somethin or how good i was in something it made that day 100% better or even for few days i was like sunflower.

Can I buy some of that 'Sunflower' you have? I'd like to feel really happy for a few days too.

Originally Posted by Aro_

I value it; it's called "constructive criticism", and it's hardly flaming. I know for a fact that people out there can design a better site than me, and whenever I design a website, I make sure to get criticism from various sources so I know what to improve upon. Reverie doesn't do that; thus, the designs are ineffective. I understand it's insulting for a designer to hear blunt comments like "you have an awful website"; but I say nothing that I don't back up with suggestions that *would* help.

Reverie has 1 webmaster, Ryan, who has been pretty much inactive for the last few years until recently. Therefore Relating Dof's Quality with comparison to our old outdated Sh*tty websites is quite an unjust opinionitive judgment. Regardless, I agree with you and I've suggested abolishing most of our Flash for Textbased-Infomationitive design before in the past which failed. Our forum does need a changing as text is hard to see if your monitor's contrast is high.

I'm beginning to realize why 99% of core game developers do not relate with the public anymore, distractions, criticism, and looping answers answered before defiantly does not help production times.

Anyways
Aro_, can I see some of your site designs?

[crex719]

I thought the whole book thing was fine.... Oh well I could care less flash or not its really the info that matters. You can get to the forums pretty easily if you have any questions too. Not to offend you but if you don't have broadband by now your living with an obselete technology. Broadband is generally cheaper if you are on your computer a lot and is so much faster than dialup. How can you be so tech savvy and still use dialup?
Anyway I really don't want to start an arguement I'm just trying to help you understand. One person complaining on behalf relatively few people for such a trivial matter will not work with a company that plans to reach many gamers. Most games require broadband to play.