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  #21  
Old 03-07-2013, 12:51 PM
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The more thorough balance posts that are made the more the team can be adjusting the better fixing the balance of the game (IE, I hate this game cuz of xyz unit, is not helpful)
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  #22  
Old 03-07-2013, 01:00 PM
Ducard Ducard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunleader View Post
@Kon
Well its nice of you to work this far in your Communitys Favor ^^
But it also means that I.ll need to make some Drama.
After all we cant have people changing you the game so they like it while having it go away from our own Wishes *gg*
After all just because one Person wants something changed doesnt mean all want it ^^


@Miklos
Dunno what the Great People say but I am really bad at folding when I know that I have the better hand....


@Axal

If he has an Mixed Army to counter Threats to his Army then he is not doing an Noobish all Dragon Army but is actually using advanced Tactics.

Now if he just needs something to defend his Enchanters this also means you just need something to kill whats protecting his enchanters ^^
To Defend against Cavalry you usually use Pikes.
So you can Add Macemen
Now you might say then he needs some Knights.
And I.ll say then we need some Crossbowmen.
In the End the Armys will be mixed to no end and will have nothing to do with an All Dragon Army anymore but that would also mean that Dragon Armys are not Invincible. ^^




But in the First place your Calculation here is not going up.
You see his Dragons take up incredible much Population Space.
And having only a few Enchanters wont Heal a Dragon enough to prevent him from being Killed by an Massive Force.
So we are already expending lots of Population on Dragons and Enchanters.

If he Fields enough Units to actually Defend Enchanters against an Full Force of for example 16 Mounted Knights matey he will at best have remaining population for 2 Dragons.
So say we really go with 16 Archers 16 Pikes and 16 Mounted Knights
He will be faced with 32 Squads against 2 Dragons and his Enchanters and their Escort will be faced with 16 Knights on Horses.
On top as Dragons add much more STR than normal units your Units will have higher lvl and thus be superior to the Enchanters Defenders
and now even if he Defends his Enchanters he cant heal the Dragons with them meanwhile.
So even if his Forces ultimately win over against the Cavalry his Dragons will be Gone.
However if he trys to let the Dragons escape you can move your Forces onto the Enchanters and finish em.

And actually we have 12 slots free currently while the Enemy is at full Population.
So we could for example take along Dragon Slayers or Additional Forces.
For example Macemen which are very Fast and make short work of whatever Defends the Enchanters


Dont get this wrong matey.
Dragons are Strong if used right.
But if you seriosly believe theyre Invincible than I dont know what you did over those Years in DoF

Dragons are Effective against most Anti NPC Armys because those are usually prepared for frontal Mass Fights.
Which is an easy target for Dragons Fireballs.
PvP Armys which are mostly fast paced will usually not have much Trouble with Dragons.
Simply because theyre in on them fast and wont take much losses against their Fireballs.
Well but actually PvP Armys are mostly small and those wont meet Dragon Armys.
Dragon Armys are usually trying to Fight anti NPC Armys.


For example if you got an Full Knight Army any Melee Infantry Army will be toast before you.
But if you Face an Dragon or Ranged Army your toast.
Macemen Army will make Toast of Ranged Armys but is good as dead when meeting Knights
Cavalry Army will make Toast of Dragons and Ranged Armys but is Toast against Pikes.
Dragons make toast of slow mass armys but are really in trouble when the enemy is fast.
Enchanters are fine when you can hold your line and have em behind it but once the enemy breaks your line your deadmeat.


Learn to Mix up an Army and use the Units effectively.
Then you wont be troubled by Dragons too much.


I for example usually use an Hero Squad Supportet by Archers, Cavalry and Pikes.
The Heros take the Front and the Archers fire from behind.
To make sure Enemy doesnt pull tricks my Cavalry ready to Flank and my Pikes in case the Enemy comes with Ogre Armys or Dragons.

This is an quite nice mix so far. Because it can stand against most of the standart PvP army sets like Macemen Rush, Cavalry Rush, Ogre Mass or Dragon Army.
Of course if faced with an Full scale Army including Infantry and Cavalry on full Power its in real Trouble because I dont have the Forces to keep an closed front against massive Knight and Swordsmen Forces for example-



my my

As for Newbe Protection.
Well actually I think there is an very easy way to make Sure Dragon Only Armys will lose Popularity.
That is to simply allow to Designate one of your Armys as Quest Army.

This One Army (each player can only have ONE) will either not be into PvP at all or will be countet as Half STR Army.
Of course it cant seek PvP itself.

This way Players can use their Siegeweapon Mass Army which is marching and made for Anti NPC Battles for Questing and Sieging and so on.
And dont need to Fear being Faced with an well mixed PvP Army.
Or at least not one which will totally outmatch them because theyre hindered by their Mass Fighting Forces.

Think that should actually solve an Big part of the problem here.
Because the Targets of those Noobhunting Dragon Armys would dissappear and those increase the risk of them running into Armys specially mixed for PvP battles and thus causing them to lose Dragons instead of farming Crowns.


Greetz
Well it were actually 3 who wanted a change and 2 who like it the way it is. Means a small favour on our side :P and just because you say it should not be changed does not mean it is not necessary.

I think these changes are a start, so lets see how they work.
And I also prefer a developer that reads the forums and actually gives a damn about their customers instead of being stubborn just doing it their way, like you can see in many many other games.

So we have a good trade-off now.
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  #23  
Old 03-07-2013, 09:37 PM
Sunleader Sunleader is offline
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Dont think 3 vs 2 is an real favor matey ^^
We are few users in this Game currently but not that few lol ^^

But well yes putting Dragons a bit weaker is not that bad of an Deal
and having Heros use 4 slots Population also works with me.


Greetz
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  #24  
Old 03-08-2013, 02:24 AM
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vicious666 vicious666 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konstantin Fomenko View Post
Thanks for adding more drama into this guys - but hey you know how our company works - just ask us to change something, put up your case with some stats to back it up - and consider it done.

We are working on a patch due either today or tomorrow - that will have the following changes:

1) Heroes now take 4 population spots - so at most you`ll see 15 heroes in the army, and usually less than that.

2) Hero and Dragon strength value will be on average be 50% higher - so that new players or under 300 strength don`t have to worry about ever getting attacked by high level Dragons or Heroes.

3) We`ve changed skill point upgrades for Heroes and Dragons. The attack and health modified is now 50% less. So this cuts in half the high level damage and hit points of all the high level Dragons in game. Low level stats remain the same.

4) We included a new quests in early game that introduces players to Dragon, and gives them a free Dragon Slayer

5) Regular unit self-healing now restores dead soldiers in a battalion. So self-healing for units and dragons/heroes is now on the same level

6) Are of Effect Damage changes - with damage decreasing with radius increasing. Fhis makes Fire Ball and Fire Wall a bit less effective


i Agree on all points except the 4 slot for hero, there is a problem script wise to limitate the number of heroes becouse they are heroes? instead augment the costs in term of slots? same for dragons?

The problem here is the combinations, if ppl use 4 protector even at 4x4 slots, they have 5x area heal , the heroes itself are never that powerful, theyr abilities stacked with other heroes of same kind are.

what we need is a limit of 5 hero 4+the original one, with 1 slot each, and max 1 for type, 1 protector 1 dragon slayer 1 high knight etc etc.




about dragons we need to limit the numbers also, even at 50% hp and dmg 6 dragon army can nullify 60 normal troops. my dragons lev 60 have 95k hp and 15k area dmg. now they will have 45k hp and 7,5k dmg? change nothing. as long they are able to INSTA kill any normal units they face

7,5k dmg x 6 dragons = 45k area dmg no units in game can tank that and have time to answer (not even heroes they maybe last 2/3 attack s : dragons just need to be near to each other and spam at 360 degree firebreath and area attacks.

Now that you gonna nerf stats wich is good becouse they where tremendously OP, we need to limit the number, becouse the problem is when you reach the point where your attack one shoot kill what you hit , and even at 50% hp/dmg they still have it. consider a lev 20 foot knights with 85% slash resistance and full hp at max have 3700 hp. the 15 man troops MAYBE last 2 hit from a single dragon, 1 from 2 dragon. withouth praticly have the chance to do any dmg, and i not even considered the fire breath. /fire ball. consider also dragons have ability to disengage, they are the most fast unit in game. and can fly. so they dictate the terms of engagement. if a player is lame can hit a big army of 60 troops do a lot of dmg than run for 3-5 mins heal back and do it again. (he can harass/weaken enemy army thx to at list 50 fireballs, and use at his advantage the speed for exploit the 125hp/sec regen )
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  #25  
Old 03-08-2013, 03:12 AM
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vicious666 vicious666 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducard View Post
Still the biggest problem is lacking of player base. If we get new players ,hopefully trough steam, they will get frustrated very fast because they do not play this game since beta and can build every army composition to counter several dragons.

Winning a pvp battle should always depend on the skill of the player. How he knows the strenght and weaknesses of his units and the units of his opponent and should never depend on how many "big units" he can field or the exact counter unit.

I also would prefer, if the dragons really hve to stay in game, some kind of group quest line where you and two or three more players fight a huge dragon and his army and as a reward you get his new born dragon that you can raise and train. But not due to buying it with wealth
Problem is not dragon as unit, since is an Op unit by definition, high tank high mobility, fire area dmg at short+ fireball at long, melee area dmg, hp regen, the problem is that unit can be replicated you can have 2-3-4-5 at that point that unit become your only strategy, becouse if something go wrong, is much easyer to check and control hp of 6 dragons with 90k hp than 60 troops

Dragons are fine as long they are not OP and not ruin the need of playng with tactic in game, 5months ago dragons where much more balanced theyr dmg was around 1500, and hp around 30k (royal dragon lev 45) now they have a dmg boost of what 1000%? they do 15k dmg. and have 90k life.

game like dawn of fantasy work in a rock paper scissor kind of gameplay,
Cavalry > archers>
Infantry with shield> Archers
Archers > infantry with no shields
Infantry with no shields > cavalry.
plus add of some spice by heroes abilities and yes why not a jolly of a dragon.

Dragons? they ruin all tactics since do all, and have the speed for decide when engage and when retreat, so 1 is fine becouse is counterable, my dragon vs your plus dragonslayer etc. 2.3.4.5? incounterable if not by same army composition, than this game become dawn of dragons.

Rigth now dragons in team of cost/efficiency and weakness are by faaar the most op unit in game,dragons will be fine when 10 normal troops wich is the compared cost, will have the strenght to counter a dragon.

majority of ppl see dawn as stonghold in a fantasy enviroment, wanna play 2h siege with use of siege weapons, and serious tactics of archers troops. a dragon ruin all of this, since spam fireball , go back to heal, spam fireball go back to heal.

Dragons must be an OPTION, a tactic option not a forced necessity, "a must have all around unit ". counterable only by another dragon. We should balance the game so that 10 normal units should be equal in term of power, of course if someone chose 10 archers dragons is the natural counter. but i am talking in a generalistic way. right now for equal a dragon. you need probably 20-25 normal troops of various kind )
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  #26  
Old 03-08-2013, 03:24 AM
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Regards Balance, my main army have str of almost 2500 mainly composed by lev 20 troops and 2royal dragons , but i have also army of str 1000 600 etc.


At lev 20 my normal troops maybe 12-15x can hold a dragon of medium lev 30-40 but at low levels read troops lev 5/12, i noticed that even a dragon lev 7 can kill 20 troops, becouse the fire dmg is the same from lev 1 to 60, it seams to not scale with levels.

fireball one shoot at lev 1 as at lev 60. (archers for example) so for army composed mainly by lev 5-12 troops. of strenght lets say 500?600? a single royal dragon even lev 25. is completely Op, becouse at that level the normal troops/heroes not have enought stats for fight a dragon And since dragon is faster and have a lot of range there i no way to play "smart" and try to avoid his fireballs.

Anybody who played a mmorp know that who have more speed and range dictate the term of the engagement, is called Kiting. (The act of kiting, is a combat tactic of a player keeping another player at a certain distance, usually out of melee distance but within ranged attack)



Quote:
Originally Posted by GPS51 View Post
The more thorough balance posts that are made the more the team can be adjusting the better fixing the balance of the game (IE, I hate this game cuz of xyz unit, is not helpful)
I agree. i not hate dragons i have like 10 of them i am merely talking about mathematics balancement.

At equal cost right now there is no other unit in game (even at lev 20 ) that take 10 slots that can counter a dragon( except for heroes wich are another issue to limit in numbers..) . since dragons not have weakness, is a jolly unit. this is why it need to be limited in number, have 1 jolly unit is OK. have an army composed of jolly unit is another. It ruin any chance to play this game with some tactics.

Last edited by vicious666 : 03-08-2013 at 03:28 AM.
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  #27  
Old 03-08-2013, 07:54 AM
wasserali wasserali is offline
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Default Balancing ok but not shrinking to chicken

I am ok with rebalancing dragons to a reasonable strength. However, please do not reduce the dragons to chicken size as they were at the very beginning after release end of September 2011.
A Dragon should be a ruling force on the battlefield but not averrule 20 units whatever tactics are applied.

Limitations to one dragon per army or one dragon per kind of dragon (this might be already to much since there are 5 kind of dragons in game) is ok.

To my fellow players: It might take several tries by devs until an agreeable strength for dragon is found. Be patient.

wasserali
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  #28  
Old 03-08-2013, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasserali View Post
I am ok with rebalancing dragons to a reasonable strength. However, please do not reduce the dragons to chicken size as they were at the very beginning after release end of September 2011.
A Dragon should be a ruling force on the battlefield but not averrule 20 units whatever tactics are applied.

Limitations to one dragon per army or one dragon per kind of dragon (this might be already to much since there are 5 kind of dragons in game) is ok.

To my fellow players: It might take several tries by devs until an agreeable strength for dragon is found. Be patient.

wasserali
I agree of course we will see how this work now with 50% less hp and dmg, but many months ago dragons where reasonable. 1500 dmg and 30k life. they got boosted of about 1000% 15k dmg 90k+ life (so +1000% dmg + 300% hp)
we need to find the settings where 10-12 troops can equal a dragon in term of strenght, than players will decide what unit fits more theyr style. micromanage a dragon or use 10 mounted knights for example.

Right now is not a choice. a dragon lev 60 will steamroll 10 knights lev 20. hands down. maybe losing 5-10k hp (1/10 of his total )
a things i suggested is that units instead DIE in pvp, they will lose 1 level. and the winner get the exp of that level to one of his units randomly
example you lose a lev 20 knights worth 600 xp, the winner get 600xp on one of his units.

Regards limit of dragons ice/hunter/royal count as same "kind" so max 1 for army the proposition i made is

royal-ice-hunter value 10 points
red value 6 points
green 3

so you can chose 1 ice or royal
or 1 red+1 green
or 3 green.

Last edited by vicious666 : 03-08-2013 at 08:57 AM.
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  #29  
Old 03-11-2013, 04:50 PM
axal011 axal011 is offline
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Wowzers, didn't realize how big the thread got lol... but im back, cant find any decent rts games, tried stronghold online, age of empires online and i hated them terribly.. nothing beats DoF
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  #30  
Old 03-12-2013, 06:14 AM
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Brian Shingles Brian Shingles is offline
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Welcome back

You might notice some changes we've made with Dragons.
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