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  #31  
Old 06-15-2012, 12:36 AM
aramsm aramsm is offline
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Believe me daikl, no one can stand a fight without healers. My healers really save my units lives. Maybe its not a priority for you but speaking in general orcs are not a race that I recomend for a new guy to play or do pvp. I want to see more orcs, I think I had only 1 or 2 fights, but for that happen they must have a healer for start.

I have to admit that when I was writting I had stopped to think again and got confused. I think my idea is bad, but if I could inspire you thats great. Waiting to hear you.
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  #32  
Old 06-15-2012, 01:14 AM
daikl daikl is offline
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My idea was this,instead of % reduction we could use a value,a rateing,whatever you wana name it.
Lets say if you have :
-between 100-200 the unit has light armor
-between 200-300 the unit has medium armor
-and over 300 is heavy
Now the catch.
>if unit has light armor it moves faster,attacks faster,but receives more damage
>if unit has heavy armor it moves slower,attacks slower,but receives less damage
>medium armor is between.
Now you might ask,but hey dude we have different types of damage.I have a solution for this also.We can use material types for armor(bronze,iron,steel,mithril ) and we could upgrade units at blacksmith.
Example:
Mithril has values(75% for pierce and 40% for slash)
Unit1 has armor rateing of 100.Unit2 has 80 damage and slash damage.Unit3 has 80damage and pierce damage.
Unit1 vs Unit2 [Unit1 true armor vs pierce will be 75(75% of 100rateing) and when hit by Unit2 will receive 5 damage]
Unit1 vs Unit3[Unit1 true armor vs slash will be 40(40% of 100rateing) and when by Uni3 will receive 40 damage]
This idea still needs improvment but could eliminate the situation where units with big damage do very little damage,units in heavy will tank better but depending on their armor rateing they won't perform the same vs a unit with 600 dmg as one with 100 (imo one of the flaws of current system) and not to mention the customization available.
This is just an idea in progress and as a programmer myself i know this could potentialy be a lot of work so i say again,just an idea
Any thoughts on this?
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  #33  
Old 06-15-2012, 01:46 AM
Vind Vind is offline
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I haven't played that much but considering game mechanics and orc lack of healing, maybe that could be compensated by giving them some kind of natural regeneration.

Also the talk about armor/damage should take into consideration that magic system was put aside while more important issues are resolved. When you place icon over unit attack number you see all kind of attacks, fire, electricity....I'm sure that some units were planed around those kind of damages/resistances, and with those features not implemented whole system needs redoing.

I do agree about armor resistance being more powerful than damage. Elven grandmasters have high survivability and blade storms seem like a squishy squids i need to replace them after every battle. So i stopped using them.
This could probably be compensated by implementing new kind of stat like "power" that ignores armor buff, say unit A has 50% slashing res and unit B has 10% power, when B attacks A using slashing damage, unit A slashing resistance is reduced to 40%.

Im speaking strictly from elven PVE point of view as i haven't played any other races.
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  #34  
Old 06-15-2012, 11:08 AM
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Konstantin Fomenko Konstantin Fomenko is offline
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Gentlemen - awesome suggestions, just spend 20 minutes catching up with post. I`ll see about getting first round of your suggestions into the next patch - probably starting with Orc Healing. Please keep the discussions going!

Couple of things I wanted to mention though:
-We cant change the system from % of damage to a set value, however we can do damage multipliers - like certain unit having 5X damage bonus against certain unit - and that can help with pushing the system more towards RPS
-Both Armour and unit damage is in one of several categories - I`m sure most of you already figured this out, but this is what most of our balancing is based on. So or example archers do pierce damage, and heavy armored units have really high pierce armour and almost take no damage from archers.

Last edited by Konstantin Fomenko : 06-15-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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  #35  
Old 06-15-2012, 11:47 AM
aramsm aramsm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vind View Post
I haven't played that much but considering game mechanics and orc lack of healing, maybe that could be compensated by giving them some kind of natural regeneration.
This would be awesome and solve the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vind View Post
Also the talk about armor/damage should take into consideration that magic system was put aside while more important issues are resolved. When you place icon over unit attack number you see all kind of attacks, fire, electricity....I'm sure that some units were planed around those kind of damages/resistances, and with those features not implemented whole system needs redoing.
True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vind View Post
I do agree about armor resistance being more powerful than damage. Elven grandmasters have high survivability and blade storms seem like a squishy squids i need to replace them after every battle. So i stopped using them.
I actually like the way Reverie thought about amor and damage, with categories etc. I dislike the cisor-paper-stone style. I dont know for sure what cause this, but this is my main concern: baldestorms are supposed to be deadly and high damage, though they are inefficient, they die fast and in the other hand GM should only hold units and gives some damage but, because they survive longer, they kill them all. I think this happens for the other reaces too. Its pretty much like you say: when you notice, other soldiers start to be useless and you stop using them (although I still use baldemasters and Sentries, but have to say that baldemasters dont help me much in the battles).

Maybe the difference between tanks and DPSers is not enough. GM starts with 120 damage and 600 hp, 50/0/50 armor (I dont remember well) and blade with 210, 300 hp and ... errr... some armor. I think they should start with 310 of damage and GM with 90. 300 of hp is too low, maybe they could have 600 or even more but armor cap restricted to 45% for slashing and piercing.

If I remember well GM also can get 75% against blunt damage, I think they shouldnt, and blades could get more armor against blunt (becuase they probably wear a softer armor and this should reduce the impact). I think maceman and sentries should have a abilitie to reduce tanks armor by half for 10-15s, like if they screwed their armor. But I dont know if you guys can do an abilitie that only works against one type of unit, or maybe it should works against anything anyway.

Just a off topic and silly suggestion: we should have foot sounds when troops walk. That would be awesome.
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  #36  
Old 06-15-2012, 12:52 PM
daikl daikl is offline
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Actualy i like the scissor-paper-stone implementation.It makes you use different troops and adapt.
Also about bladestorms,i used them just in singleplayer and they are pretty good but i think you aramsm missed the point,they were ment to be used against archers/light infantry or as flank troops,you can't use them as your front line(more on this after further testing)
Oh and 600hp bladestorm is a bit much(op!!!)
We need some difference between troops that tank and troops that do damage(more on this later,need to think more about it).
I'll keep the following suggestions just for orc,since they are my main race and i have an idea how they should function.Players that main other races are welcome to bring their input on the respective race.Let's start(units that were not mentioned either they dont need any modification or coudn't think of one atm):
>orc slayers - in my opinion they could use a boost of 50-100 stamina,they are the main force,i use them to soften up enemy ranks and draw archer fire using hive formation+cover but sometimes due to lack of more stamina they tend to brake formation and cover before my other troops come in.
>orc berzerkers - they should be true to their namesake,true BERZERKERS; starting with 25/0/25 is just pathetic,they need more starting armor like 50/10/50 and here's the catch,when they use the berzerk skill(rage) make the armor drop like -30/0/-30 from current values and the 100hp penalty should be removed(if i go crazy im reckless but i don't just happen to lose life)
>orc mounted slayers/impalers -no upgrades,low stats and useless as hell.They could use the howl ability of normal wargs and some bonus armor upgrades.Need to test the more.
>orc marauder(the archer unit) - ok so im an orc,im no elf thus not so accurate and maybe can't shoot so far,but damn im strong;imo orc archers should get more damage and beside pierce damage maybe even crush damage(i read some lore that tikken dal orcs train to shoot through trees =that means force and damage)

And offtopic/silly suggestion:how about some new elite creatures besides dragons,i personally would like to have a hydra,maybe a cyclops(hell i could even draw the concept art if you guys agree :P )
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Last edited by daikl : 06-15-2012 at 01:01 PM.
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  #37  
Old 06-15-2012, 01:03 PM
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Konstantin Fomenko Konstantin Fomenko is offline
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Bladestorms are more of a hit and run kind of troop. After you get them to level 3 and upgrade their Stamina they become really useful.

They have extremely good attack but their main strength is the whirlwind ability. The best use is to change to Wind formation, cloak, run into the mass of enemies, perform whirlwind twice, and escape. With this strategy they can easily take out 2 battalions for each blade-storm battalion with minimal damage.
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  #38  
Old 06-15-2012, 02:29 PM
aramsm aramsm is offline
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Well World of Battles use a cisor-paper-stone mechanic. It works but the battle is a mess because its like a dog and cat play: you send your lancers against cavalry, the enemy retreat the cavalry and send his swordsman, then you retreat your lancers and send your cavalry against his swordsman, than he retreat his swordsman and send his lancers.... Basically troops get some time to engage because ppl keep avoinding each other most because one type of unit is 100% useless against the other. We could have weakness, ok, but not at the point to be useless. The strategy is resumed to that: who can get the enemy's army with its weakness wins. It works and its fun, however its annoying sometimes (plus there is the pay-win wich ruins the game).

I did use bladestorms to flank, although is hard to say that I truely flanked someone since he can see me approaching. My front line is always GM, but I cant say or I cant see that actually thanks to the blademasters I killed that squad/army. Whirlwind is awesome but its hard to micromanage units with the pathfind that we have, I mean some units stay behind and you dont really know when you are hitting the enemy or just the air (maybe a sound effect that you hitting should help). Anyway, for the reasons listed below, if you only PvEd so any unit should fit. But in PvP I dont feel they are needed or useful, if they will give me some hard work to manage I just send GM and over this **** hehehe. Like I said, when GMs are engaging then its over.

Maybe a HP boost is too much, but a damage boost and a damage nerf for all tanks should reduce this unbalance between tanks and dpsers.

Konstantine, I dont think cloaking is working against players since in PvP I cloacked some units to sneak my enemy's dragon and kill it, but he might had noticed because he retreat his dragon as soon as I had started walking in its direction, and again the fog of war... Also I wont use any elve formation anymore since squads get stucked when we change formations. I did it sometimes before and lost the entire squads! I still think that a boost on their damage would be nice because like now they have low HP for melee units and a low armor at the beginning, so I think its too much risk and I start spending points on armor and damage. I would never think on stamina. With a boost on damage I could think on stamina then because they wont survive for too long in a close combat but they can still be deadly. But I will try, now that you give me this tip, investing on stamina.

Im saying that they need this boost but this is not only for bladestroms, of corse, also other units but I dont have enough knowledge. We still need to discuss about men race, maybe Ghost could help but I cant see him here.

Btw, I really bought the idea that orcs should have health regen. Sorry, I havent read the lore so I dont know if this fit with it. But we have HP regen already, maybe orcs should start with it , and at high levels and have its cap, for orcs, increased. That should fix orcs tanks too since they cant have nice armors but healing per second should make them live and hold longer. We could have healers too, maybe that would be easier to implement and balance, but if they have hp regen boosted that would make them exclusive, I mean would make them different than other races, like a special feature.

I was also thinking about their defences and I thought that they should get an extra wall, since its wood wall and should be easier to do another and another. Then they could set boddies trap between the second and the third wall and incomplete palisade just to make harder to enemy's troop walk between them (or just the boddies would do that?).

Also (I think this is ask for too much but I really think its needed) we should have a fortress in the center of our towns, not something hard to get in, is more to protect against siege ammo, something small not to protect the whole army but your reserves because with siege weapons you can kill ppl inside the town (although Idk if this is bad). Well Im saying this because I can remember some sieges that I had against you and Ghost and sometimes it was safier outside my walls than inside. I thnik siege weapons should be more focused on destroying walls than killing everyone inside town. Maybe a range nerf would fix this too, or could you make the ammo fly less higher so them have a minimal chance to pass over the walls?? And it would be nice too if attackers could win by killing town's advisor instead of having to stay at the middle of the town (though alternative way of winning - reducing your enemy's army - should be kept).
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  #39  
Old 06-15-2012, 03:26 PM
daikl daikl is offline
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First,what is your definition of tanks? Mens elite unit(knight) and elven elite unit(GM) could be considered 'tanks' because of high armor and sustain abilities,but orc elite unit(berzerkers) have low armor and they act more like damage dealers.In terms of pure armor and soaking damage slayers could be said to be the 'tanks' of orcs.
Now about this scissor/rock/paper implementation,its not like swords>pike>cav>swords and thats it,pikes can beat swords,swords can beat cavalry,its a matter of who is better agains who;did you notice on unit description it says "Efficient vs ... , Medium vs ... ,Weak vs ... " ; that is why i said the system works.On this topic,maybe they could use multipliers versus what that unit is good against (ie Efficient vs swords = 3x damage vs them, Medium =1x damage or normal ,weak is 1/2 and Very Efficient maybe 4x or 5x).
I kinda agree that orc strongholds need a better look,something maybe like Pultakk,that stronghold is f*kin amazing(not a priority but something i really would like to see).
I think the current siege system is ok,you can always counter with catapults on towers or catapults inside own town or ride out and meet enemy.Im honestly more afraid of wildfire damage then the damage the catapults make on my troops.You as a defender have better advantage then atacking army(you have walls,higher ground,counter-siege mechanics like oil,spike traps etc,army waiting inside) and when enemy attacks it usualy is through a small gap where you can face him with armor in front and archers in the back(watch 300 and get my point).
Anyway fell free to debate me.
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Last edited by daikl : 06-15-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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  #40  
Old 06-15-2012, 05:22 PM
aramsm aramsm is offline
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Yeah I understand that berzerkers are not the tank of orcs, Im not saying that. Indeed define what is a tank is complicated, but the word comes from the military vehicule, tanks, however the real tanks are high armored, faster than men and have a great DPS, and in RPG games tanks mean someone that could hold damage and thats all, actually not RPG but D&D because in other system that I played (Daemon) tanks were strong and high constitution persons, and if you were strong you would have some bonusses on damage etc but this is not the case hehehe. Indeed I mean units that can hold lines, like GMs and Knights. Slayers are not at the same level as them, at least not before the patch...

About the scissor I was just underline that to Reverie be cautious to not fall in the same trap. But I think that they already tried that restricting some units caps armor. Still, I feel Konstantine have to let me a hand here because I dont know how the multipliers would work etc.

Yeah, I was much referring to the fire that siege weapons cause. I dont think this should happen - if we have walls is to protect, so how could that not work? I said that because I lost a fight, when actually even me and Ghost thought that I would win; he simple couldnt do thing to me and my walls, but he killed some of my troops from outside my walls and then he won (he was surprise). I succeed defending my town but he won because he killed some troops and put me a little outnumbered. Since you know that, you can just stay outside, with your army around your sieges and bombarding the town. I agree that you CAN bombard the towns, but there is always a stronghold to protect the lords, ladies, stock pile etc. and we dont have that in DoF. Like I said, is not to protect your whole army but just a part of it, and maybe the advisor.

I also think that towers and threants should be immune to arrows. They have like 70% armor or something against piercing, but seriously I cant see how arrows could take a tower down. In DoF I have to build like 6 threants just for one or two actually reach the walls and then my units have to rush to climb it before archers take it down. Catapults, traps, fire and cavalry should counter that not archers. Well, maybe immune could be too extreme but a boost of 80-90 or an upgrade.

Last edited by aramsm : 06-15-2012 at 05:26 PM.
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