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  #1  
Old 05-02-2010, 08:17 PM
Feweh Feweh is offline
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Default Learning from past game Mistakes.

I'm putting this in general discussion because... it's both suggestions and a general debate topic regarding DOF and games very similar to it.

(If a mod feels it doesn't belong feel free to move).

So i was playing Stronghold today, i haven't played it for ages so i decided to pull it out. Stronghold will be my main reference point for my post. if you have other game examples feel free to use them!


One of the key breaking points of this game for me was probably the Map sizes, as well as the room you have to build.


You're area became so over clumped together than it becomes a huge mess

DOF needs to a have a decent enough area that you arent overwhelmed by there being no space at all on your screen. Although everything is predefined building wise so we should be good.



Stronghold had another problem. Catapults and Trebuchets. YOu could litterly build a trebuchet and sit back and knock down the entire enemy castle and have no consequence.


The problem here was building a castle or walls and the walls having no effect or lasting impression in the terrain when destroyed I.E: They disappeared.

DOF need's to have a better way of countering users just sitting there with 20 catapults, what stops them from just sitting there destroying your walls. Aware you can build Catapults on the wall.. but 1 or 2 catapults isnt going to stop 20 of theirs.

(People take in mind usually when you siege you have a superior force rushing out with cav isnt going to be the best idea).



Unit overlapping is another problem in many games, how many times in stronghold did units overlap and you not realize "OH **** THOSE ARENT PEASANTS THERES KNIGHTS UNDERNEATH THEM".

There seems to be a HUGE HUGE unit overlapping in DOF, how do you know what to practically attack when you cant see the enemy forces squad count properly? (Small idea, add banners to equip squad).


Overly ridiculous powers and creatures. Once again in stronghold, when they took the step to Legends it completely killed the entire game for me. Magic ruined so much fun and was so OP in the beginning and stupid.

Not only that mythical creatures and stuff. Now the only thing i can see being a problem here is dragons. How can dragons properly be balanced in sieges. Too weak they are useless and not worth the cost to hire, too overpowered and they'll bring down a entire wall section in a second.

One thing that is going to need a severe balance.



The major flaw in stronghold was the sieges itself,

Anyone ever play stronghold and notice how getting sieged never felt like a siege, it always felt like one catapult knocking down a wall or a mass ladder attach to one wall and the HUGE UNIT clumping just going up one side.

Right now im seeing pure one wall pushes, none of this huge battle all across the castle. I know unit clumping his hard to work a work around for, but if you have units overlap it's going to cause minor tactical problems.

Anyways, thats my feedback, suggestions. Feel free to discuss your feelings on certain flaws you see and what not.
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  #2  
Old 05-02-2010, 08:37 PM
Negthareas Negthareas is offline
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Unit overlapping has caused issues in my gameplay. So many times I have been attacking only to find out there are more, sometimes twice the number of foes that I originally saw. Also, this could not be used to your advantage, because it happened randomly, and you could not do it yourself deliberately.

Sieges - I think the buildings will be more more durable than in other games, meaning it will take longer for trebs and catabults to knowck out defs - giving the defender more time to create a response. Also, stone res is beig used as ammo, and siege weapons will be much rarer - as was stated in the recent human buildings Fanfry. This will mean that there will prob never [unless you are fightin a hugely powerful player] be 20 trebs knocking on your door [or down your walls].
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Old 05-02-2010, 09:34 PM
DarkMaster DarkMaster is offline
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BfME1 is the game I'll use in most of my examples

Quote:
DOF needs to a have a decent enough area that you arent overwhelmed by there being no space at all on your screen. Although everything is predefined building wise so we should be good.
So far, it seems as if DoF has some pretty large environments to play in, as well as the fact that many buildings are pre-defined. BfME1 achieved this quite well, IMO.

Quote:
The problem here was building a castle or walls and the walls having no effect or lasting impression in the terrain when destroyed I.E: They disappeared.

DOF need's to have a better way of countering users just sitting there with 20 catapults, what stops them from just sitting there destroying your walls. Aware you can build Catapults on the wall.. but 1 or 2 catapults isnt going to stop 20 of theirs.

(People take in mind usually when you siege you have a superior force rushing out with cav isnt going to be the best idea).
This has always been a concern to me, although as stated, structures will likely be stronger and siege weapons rarer. I think there are realistic accuracies, too.
Anyway, that really bugged me in BfME1. The defender should have the tactical advantage, not vice-versa . Walls were just useless, and siege towers, possibly one of the most fun units in the game, never got used.

Quote:
There seems to be a HUGE HUGE unit overlapping in DOF, how do you know what to practically attack when you cant see the enemy forces squad count properly? (Small idea, add banners to equip squad).
From the screenshots I've seen, overlapping isn't too bad. It isn't a major thing for me, but seeing 10-20 orcs all coming up a siege ladder AT ONCE really fast was a bit of a bugger for me.

Quote:
Not only that mythical creatures and stuff. Now the only thing i can see being a problem here is dragons. How can dragons properly be balanced in sieges. Too weak they are useless and not worth the cost to hire, too overpowered and they'll bring down a entire wall section in a second.

One thing that is going to need a severe balance.
Hmm, I'm curious as to this as well, seeing as magic is probably going to be rather powerful in this game as well. BfME1 handled this REALLY badly IMO. One word: Balrog. 'Nuff said

Quote:
Anyone ever play stronghold and notice how getting sieged never felt like a siege, it always felt like one catapult knocking down a wall or a mass ladder attach to one wall and the HUGE UNIT clumping just going up one side.

Right now im seeing pure one wall pushes, none of this huge battle all across the castle. I know unit clumping his hard to work a work around for, but if you have units overlap it's going to cause minor tactical problems.
Another valid point of concern. I await the dev's response also.
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  #4  
Old 05-02-2010, 10:20 PM
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This is all thought up off the top of my head while I'm about to fall asleep at my desk, fairly tired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feweh View Post



Stronghold had another problem. Catapults and Trebuchets. YOu could litterly build a trebuchet and sit back and knock down the entire enemy castle and have no consequence.


The problem here was building a castle or walls and the walls having no effect or lasting impression in the terrain when destroyed I.E: They disappeared.

DOF need's to have a better way of countering users just sitting there with 20 catapults, what stops them from just sitting there destroying your walls. Aware you can build Catapults on the wall.. but 1 or 2 catapults isnt going to stop 20 of theirs.

(People take in mind usually when you siege you have a superior force rushing out with cav isnt going to be the best idea).
Two things which we could make this entirely moot - carry limit for resources on armies since they already require stone to fire. Armies do not need stone for anything else, and stone is obviously heavier than other resources, just make each stone take up more space to limit this sort of thing, they should be used to soften defenses not win the siege themselves.



Quote:
Unit overlapping is another problem in many games, how many times in stronghold did units overlap and you not realize "OH **** THOSE ARENT PEASANTS THERES KNIGHTS UNDERNEATH THEM".

There seems to be a HUGE HUGE unit overlapping in DOF, how do you know what to practically attack when you cant see the enemy forces squad count properly? (Small idea, add banners to equip squad).
This isn't the sort of game where you pick targets, it's more of a strategic level of overall positioning. Have you forgotten ranged units have realistic trajectory? You cannot focus fire with them. And melee units certainly cannot focus fire for even more obvious reasons. Magic if anything will be the only thing you'll NEED to aim properly, the rest you will be fine with more general things. For example, it won't prevent your cavalry from running around behind the main engagement and running down archers or from targeting them with their own archers. But if you want to try and say kill a specific battalion out of a mass, you wouldn't be able to with or without clumped units because of the way archery works. Of course we're working on limiting, if not outright removing it, alex sheds some light on this below.


Quote:
Overly ridiculous powers and creatures. Once again in stronghold, when they took the step to Legends it completely killed the entire game for me. Magic ruined so much fun and was so OP in the beginning and stupid.

Not only that mythical creatures and stuff. Now the only thing i can see being a problem here is dragons. How can dragons properly be balanced in sieges. Too weak they are useless and not worth the cost to hire, too overpowered and they'll bring down a entire wall section in a second.

One thing that is going to need a severe balance.
There are no super creatures, not even the heroes are 'super'. Well.. not player owned anyway I reserve the right to create ridiculously overpowered quest monsters. Magic may or may not end up being a game changing force, too early to say. I'm pretty confident in my own, and definitely the rest of the team's ability to balance this though.


Quote:

The major flaw in stronghold was the sieges itself,

Anyone ever play stronghold and notice how getting sieged never felt like a siege, it always felt like one catapult knocking down a wall or a mass ladder attach to one wall and the HUGE UNIT clumping just going up one side.

Right now im seeing pure one wall pushes, none of this huge battle all across the castle. I know unit clumping his hard to work a work around for, but if you have units overlap it's going to cause minor tactical problems.

Anyways, thats my feedback, suggestions. Feel free to discuss your feelings on certain flaws you see and what not.

This huge battles all across the castle thing isn't possible for most players on an awareness level. In most games where that happens it does not mean it is the most effective strategy by any means, it is simply that the effort required to attack in many different places at once is beyond most people.

I'm sure there will be some sort of limit on how quickly/many units can move up at once, or I'd like to see that anyway, but right now the main way to take a castle is not with masses of siege since you run out of stone before killing everything, nor with a handful of towers, it comes from taking the gate and sometimes nearby walls. Right now I tend to send my most durable units up onto the walls with my siege towers/treants while I ram down the gate and move my own archers just in front of the walls, then try and target their own archers with mine while doing my best to keep the ram alive. A lone ram without support can and will die very quickly to the defenders, you need to make a concentrated push.

Most sieges revolve around the gates and nearby walls, though it's certainly possible to with fog of war, a bit of distraction, and well timed towers take another part of the wall and swarm their king, or the gate crank and open the gate from the inside.


Hope that gets rid of any fears or concerns, sleeping soon as another day of making this game come alive starts tomorrow. I'll check back throughout the day though.
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Last edited by Josh Warner : 05-02-2010 at 10:39 PM.
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  #5  
Old 05-02-2010, 10:22 PM
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Alex Walz Alex Walz is offline
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Quote:
One of the key breaking points of this game for me was probably the Map sizes, as well as the room you have to build.

You're area became so over clumped together than it becomes a huge mess

DOF needs to a have a decent enough area that you arent overwhelmed by there being no space at all on your screen. Although everything is predefined building wise so we should be good.
I think all the maps provide plenty of room for both the attacker(s) and the defender(s). Elves and Men build on plots, so no problems there. The orc walls are preset but enclose a vast piece of land which should be adequate. If you find yourself needing more room still, you can build your additional huts and non-military buildings outside the walls.

Quote:
Stronghold had another problem. Catapults and Trebuchets. YOu could litterly build a trebuchet and sit back and knock down the entire enemy castle and have no consequence.

The problem here was building a castle or walls and the walls having no effect or lasting impression in the terrain when destroyed I.E: They disappeared.

DOF need's to have a better way of countering users just sitting there with 20 catapults, what stops them from just sitting there destroying your walls. Aware you can build Catapults on the wall.. but 1 or 2 catapults isnt going to stop 20 of theirs.

(People take in mind usually when you siege you have a superior force rushing out with cav isnt going to be the best idea).
I'd say it's more of a problem with the player than the game if they don't do something about the line of catapults sitting back and attacking. But the defenders have the range advantage given their height on the walls so you can counter them with mounted catapults and maybe some upgraded archers might be able to take them out as well.

Quote:
Unit overlapping is another problem in many games, how many times in stronghold did units overlap and you not realize "OH **** THOSE ARENT PEASANTS THERES KNIGHTS UNDERNEATH THEM".

There seems to be a HUGE HUGE unit overlapping in DOF, how do you know what to practically attack when you cant see the enemy forces squad count properly? (Small idea, add banners to equip squad).
I think you're referring more to some of our older screenshots. We are aware of this problem and a lot of the clipping has already been fixed, and we will work on fixing the rest of it before release, so no worries here.

Quote:
Overly ridiculous powers and creatures. Once again in stronghold, when they took the step to Legends it completely killed the entire game for me. Magic ruined so much fun and was so OP in the beginning and stupid.

Not only that mythical creatures and stuff. Now the only thing i can see being a problem here is dragons. How can dragons properly be balanced in sieges. Too weak they are useless and not worth the cost to hire, too overpowered and they'll bring down a entire wall section in a second.
None of our heroes are too overpowered. And our magic spells are relatively weak, they can give you the upper hand in a fairly balanced battle, but they will not save you if you're outnumbered.

Dragons won't be a factor until later on in the game when you have a large size army and defenses to counter them. Dragons aren't implemented yet, so I can't comment, but they won't be overly strong. Just make sure you have some archers to counter them. You also have just as much access to dragons as your enemy so you can bring in an ice dragon to take out a fire dragon or whatever. But like the spells, dragons won't be able to significantly alter the tides of war.

Quote:
The major flaw in stronghold was the sieges itself,

Anyone ever play stronghold and notice how getting sieged never felt like a siege, it always felt like one catapult knocking down a wall or a mass ladder attach to one wall and the HUGE UNIT clumping just going up one side.

Right now im seeing pure one wall pushes, none of this huge battle all across the castle. I know unit clumping his hard to work a work around for, but if you have units overlap it's going to cause minor tactical problems.

Anyways, thats my feedback, suggestions. Feel free to discuss your feelings on certain flaws you see and what not.
It's kind of hard to get a sense of the scale of the whole battle with a screenshot, but if you don't shoot down the siege towers in time, they're going to attach to several wall segments. On Facebook, there's a screenshot of five Treants attaching to a poorly-protected wall while archers and bolt throwers are firing in the distance, setting the city on fire. There are other screenshots where the defender is facing a two-front war and must switch back and forth between the two fronts (unless they team up as one huge army).
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Old 05-02-2010, 10:28 PM
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It seems alex caught this around the same time hah. Archers with the new formations and such may indeed be able to return fire on siege weapons from walls, something to look into. And definitely if there are multiple attacking armies things become much more intense, right now castle defend is set up so that the player can choose between one or two attacking armies, two is quite the challenge even on easy.
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Old 05-02-2010, 11:40 PM
DarkMaster DarkMaster is offline
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Quote:
ice dragon to take out a fire dragon
Bwahahaha! Funny how we manage to squeeze all these details out of the devs almost unintentionally . So there's elemental variations between the dragons? Sweeet! How many such elements can we expect? Due to the context this is in, I get the impression the elements are going to be rock-paper-scissors-pokemon () kinda thing.
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Old 05-03-2010, 05:01 AM
Yami-Yagari Yami-Yagari is offline
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Same things happened in BFME2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feweh View Post


Stronghold had another problem. Catapults and Trebuchets. YOu could litterly build a trebuchet and sit back and knock down the entire enemy castle and have no consequence.


The problem here was building a castle or walls and the walls having no effect or lasting impression in the terrain when destroyed I.E: They disappeared.

DOF need's to have a better way of countering users just sitting there with 20 catapults, what stops them from just sitting there destroying your walls. Aware you can build Catapults on the wall.. but 1 or 2 catapults isnt going to stop 20 of theirs.

(People take in mind usually when you siege you have a superior force rushing out with cav isnt going to be the best idea).
BFME2 really suffers under this. People tend to create their own maps with unlimited resources and 4k cp, and the big flaw of it all that the only unit you need to make in order to win in trebuchets/catapults.
I've played on of said maps, and it was 2vs1, and we still lost seeing as we tended to create a diverse army with cavalry etc., while he had created over 200 trebuchets.
Before we even came close to take his trebs down, both our armies were literally destroyed, or so severly maimed we couldn't even put a dent in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feweh View Post
Overly ridiculous powers and creatures. Once again in stronghold, when they took the step to Legends it completely killed the entire game for me. Magic ruined so much fun and was so OP in the beginning and stupid.
BFME2, like its predecessor, has some of the most overpowered units. and it became even more overpowered in BFME2, with its create oyur own hero mode.
The elven ranger hero is overpowered beyond your compare. in BFME2, your own created hero cost 1500 resources, and at lvl 3, he gains the most overpowered spell there is.. Tornado .
You only have to use it once on a large condensed army in order to lvl your lvl 3 ranger to lvl 10 with just one spell. And if you have the upgraded version(which most people have ofc.) the tornado can literally survive for over 4 min.
By that time not only will your army be destroyed, but your fort will be seriously damaged to the point that when he counterattacks, you pretty much lost.

Although the custom made heroes are overpowered, the normal faction heroes are very strong as well.
I play dwarfs not only for their catapults and men of dale, but mostly because of their badass heroes, which once they'r put on defense mode, can destroy armies without dying, simply because they'r alot sturdier then other heroes in the game.
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Old 05-03-2010, 06:39 AM
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well bfme is the most overpowered game ever, you see a custom hero over there killing normal heros in one hit. Blasting away oliphants and creating massive armies in the middle of the battlefield. Of course its overpowered, there is only ONE totally balanced game out there... And that is *da da da DAAAA* rome total war. At least its as close to balanced, so if every game learned from that it would all be balanced
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Old 05-03-2010, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfang View Post
well bfme is the most overpowered game ever, you see a custom hero over there killing normal heros in one hit. Blasting away oliphants and creating massive armies in the middle of the battlefield. Of course its overpowered, there is only ONE totally balanced game out there... And that is *da da da DAAAA* rome total war. At least its as close to balanced, so if every game learned from that it would all be balanced
Actually balancing kills the game or makes it more boring, less interesting, less diverse and a lot of similarities with different name.
Well if you are making a game, for example native americans vs english troops, you cant make n.a. same strong as e.. I liked that at AoE2 where there was different tech and castle units for every faction, but it was based on their "historical" background rather than balanced all around. So there were some factions weaker but that didnt stop me from playing them, i liked it even more.
Or at WoW, at start it was interesting, every class felt like something special or different, but now they look almost the same, only different is dps/tank/heal.
And rome total war.... they all had that "long spear" formation .... everything looks almost the same, only the look/colour is different and some minor number tweaking.
But i agree on casual logical balancing. Like lowering damage/armor/... if that makes sense and that not destroy it lorewise (like strong attack in real history become here, because of balancing, just moderate or even weaker).
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