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  #21  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaky_squirrel View Post
Not a big fan of dragonkin myself (Anything the close to human shape is just an ugly human to me).

I'd prefer dragons to keep their lizard shapes, I might post some examples of what I mean by that later, but for now I must go...do homework.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanoi...%26_Dragons%29

That's what I mean by humanoid.

Lizardfolk fall under that as do many, many other races that appear nothing like humans.

two arms, two legs, one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and head is generally 'humanoid' though extra arms/legs yet retaining the same shape is still considered humanoid. Certain aquatic races are considered humanoid even when they have no legs.
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  #22  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:09 PM
ash12181987 ash12181987 is offline
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1.) Player Customization: Yes, sounds good to an extent, but only as much as is needed to help differentiate from someone over the hill.

The hero customization I agree with. The city customization argument has been leveled and lost multiple times. As Josh said though: we're getting customizable defenses, so that's good enough (Well not really, but as I lost this argument months ago).

2.) Environment: No comment. Already hashed out in Border Towns thread.

3.) Forgotten Races:
a.) Dragons: Abso-fing-lutely, we Should have dragons. Their an awesome innovation to the standard Men-Elf-Slightly bad elf-orc-Dwarf SFS [Standard Fantasy Setting] Tolkein inspired game. Mind you despite Josh's optimism I think they would be harder to balance. One thing that came to mind was that Dragons aren't typically... humble. I mean if your a giant flying lizard thing the last thing you need is humility. OR, if your the Son of a giant flying lizard thing, and a human... again, no need for humility, because your 8ft tall and built like robocop. My point being, how do they have a labor class who does stuff like, build structures, mine gold, and scoop up gong (Or is that Stronghold 2). One slightly... a-moral idea that I had was Slavery. I know that sounds terrible, but who says Dragons have to be all good? Swoop down and swipe up a buncha' villagers or creeps that are lying around and instead of killing them, they work for the dragon... clan? Flock? Gaggle? Uh... Group, that is present in that area. Would be an intresting mechanic to add to gameplay.

b.) Minotaurs: Mythology of Minotaurs: They reside in Labyrinths and eat people. Their horny (Two horns, like a bull... Yeah, bad joke, but I went there), they are furry, they are... strong? Their not very deep. I wouldn't say they would go far as a race. Now if you go Wow route, their Native American Indians. So, are we going Mississippian Indians, who are highly factionalized horticulturists (In general, before someone starts picking at me historically). Northwestern Indians, Extremely highly organized hunter Gatherers. Or Southwestern Indians, Starving... but also at times horticulturists. OR mesoamericans, preferabley aztecs: They eat people, their horny, they build labyrinths, appear in Mel Gibson Movies disguised as Mayans. Personally I don't like the idea of Minotaurs from WoW, and to go more Greek in origin... their rather unlikely to form anything civilized. I'd say they should be creeps, but nothing more. I understand innovation and heck if someone can come of with something that sound fun, original, and viable I'll eat my words.

c.) Undead: Would Be a Blast. There are multiple ways to do this. Give a different resource: Bodies, and make them do soldiers only if they have enough dead guys. If you do that, then a focus on spellcasters would be good, but you may only start out with a few. Then, sack a village and convert it's populace. Or find graveyards. If you did this, then finding magical power could be more of a sapping thing: Find another civilization, mark one of their casters, convert him to the darkside. I mean, they could really be played like the scourge of the gods that they usually are portrayed as. Further, for special units, they just need Kill another races special and raise him. Early on you can only get Skeletons which are **** easy to kill, but fast. The more you advance though, you can raise more meaty undead like Zombies, deadites, and Flesh golems (Or something). And if you get Really good, you can become, or make Lichs, demi-lichs, etc. thus artificially boosting your magic power. I mean the classic issue with undead armies is: For everyone They kill, they boost their own power. Building wise it would be sparce, maybe a small tower and a couple structures, but as time goes on and you (The caster) Grow in strength you could get more stuff. Sorry, I love the idea of undead plagues in an RTS.

d.) ...is for Dwarves. No brain-er here, we need the bearded drunken Scotsmen. Nothing more that needs to be said here.

4.) Magic: Sounds good. I mean really I don't think we'll need alot of Balance for mages, because despite their power... you'll have just a few, where as your enemy will have umpteen groups of 20 swordsmen, archers, special stuff, and cavalry riding down on the 5 mages (Just guessing)... no amount of uber spelling can kill a whole army.

Last edited by ash12181987 : 02-12-2010 at 10:11 PM.
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  #23  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:25 PM
otomotopia otomotopia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Warner View Post
@Otomotopia:

Have you played the various Stronghold games online? One of two things happens depending on which stronghold you play. Either walls are completely worthless, or they're brokenly overpowered. There is simply no way to balance letting everyone design their own walls. We hope to have plenty of different ones to let you choose from, and even that will lead to some builds being stronger than others. It just has to be this way for balance unless you want walls to go the way of AoE2 where sure you can build a nice looking city but it isn't worth a tenth of the money you sunk into it. And with siege warfare being one of the biggest and best things about the game, reducing walls to little more than a hurdle low enough you can step over wouldn't be good.

The various customizable wall defenses are unique enough to make cities feel like your own as well, imo. With so many options and three distinct terrain's per race to choose from.
Hehe, why, yes, I have played the game Stronghold online. In fact, i'm currently a part of the internal testing of the current Stronghold MMO (). This is why I also suggested a fix for those who are 'underpowered'-having templates like you just described, along with a 'freebuild' option. The best of the user-created setups can even be added to these 'templates' to update the competition. If you find your setup is 'underpowered,' you always can gather up to the point where you can build a template city.

And, if boundaries and length limits are put in place to contain the defender from over-extending his defences and rules are put in place to make the attacker still able to reach the keep with minimal building obstruction (aka 'house walls'), suddently it becomes much more balanced for the attacker.
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  #24  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by otomotopia View Post
Hehe, why, yes, I have played the game Stronghold online. In fact, i'm currently a part of the internal testing of the current Stronghold MMO (). This is why I also suggested a fix for those who are 'underpowered'-having templates like you just described, along with a 'freebuild' option. The best of the user-created setups can even be added to these 'templates' to update the competition. If you find your setup is 'underpowered,' you always can gather up to the point where you can build a template city.

And, if boundaries and length limits are put in place to contain the defender from over-extending his defences and rules are put in place to make the attacker still able to reach the keep with minimal building obstruction (aka 'house walls'), suddently it becomes much more balanced for the attacker.
Otomotopia, I understand what you're saying and I've even considered that idea myself but it's pointless. Every city will become a clone of the best, and in many cases the best will rarely if ever actually resemble a city. The best setups will be used by everyone, and we as devs will have to balance around those absurdly strong defenses or they'll be impenetrable which leads to the few people who haven't yet adopted the 'best' to become frustrated and quit, or frustrated and use the 'best'.

It creates a huge balance issue, again we absolutely have to balance around the best defense to make the game playable, which means bad becomes worthless and leads to the exact same thing most of you are worried about, every city being the same. You will almost assuredly see more variety with our system than the one you propose.
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  #25  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:48 PM
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@Ash:
I still dunno about dragons. I mean, ok, dragonkin adds a possibility and plenty of room for magic to go. However, if you're going to make dragons a race dragons should be the main part of it. Otherwise, you may as well name it Dragonkin and be done with it. Kind of cheap to name it dragons and then make 3/4th's of the units only half-dragon.

I guess the labor might be a little difficult, but it's not that that I see as being a problem. It'd be harder to create structures and the like that make sense in my opinion. If the race is going to be called dragons they obviously rule themselves, which means they have their own architecture. So-what's dragon-made building look like? A curious question-and an even more interesting answer, no doubt.

I couldn't agree with you more over minotaurs. I didn't get the WoW reference until I remembered some quests from I think Darkshore, but that's not important. What is important is that it completely lost the Minotaur feeling, sowe can't really go that route. I'm guessing it'd actually be possible to create something plausible with the minotaur name- minotaurs are awesome units (giant axes for the win ) but you'd basically be recreating the races technology traits to do so.
I mean, they obviously wouldn't have archers besides throwing axeman. I don't remember anything to suggest they were technologically advanced. They could have some good infantry and I sorta like the shaman idea, but I still think there isn't enough existing lore behind them to create a race off them with that name.

Undead: In my opinion, they are the most open-ended of the races. Think how many concepts you could combine to create a workable race-you could use one or two things from nearly hundreds of games to create a completely unique race with hundreds of possible units, plenty of magic possibility, skeletal horses, wyverns, the walking corpses of your dead enemies-I actually think WoW did a good job pulling them off.

There's also plenty of concept for the dwarves. I particularly liked how Dragon Age portrayed them as a race with very big political issues- Id never seen them portrayed like that before. I absolutely loved it, to be honest, and would like some similar lore for their questline if they ever come to pass. As for balance- give them a strong defenseive focus in my opinion, with excellent siege weaponry but limited in options. Also, it's a basic fact they hate anything to do with riding, so they're only cavalry could be some sorts of wild animals and specialist mercenaries.

You'd be surprised at how over-powered 5 mages can be. Decent line of sight+ some sort of fireball spell with good AoE plus firewall (which I know exists) and high HP, and they could wreck total havoc on any army. It won't end up like that, but mages could end up a little to powerful for their own good.
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  #26  
Old 02-13-2010, 06:42 AM
blackfang blackfang is offline
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the dragon factionneed Unwilling labor or mindless slaves that can do their dirty work it can still be dragon faction since they control it. Maybe you can use drakes that have not gotten their wings yet as a unit? That could be awesome.
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  #27  
Old 02-13-2010, 08:29 AM
otomotopia otomotopia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Warner View Post
Otomotopia, I understand what you're saying and I've even considered that idea myself but it's pointless. Every city will become a clone of the best, and in many cases the best will rarely if ever actually resemble a city. The best setups will be used by everyone, and we as devs will have to balance around those absurdly strong defenses or they'll be impenetrable which leads to the few people who haven't yet adopted the 'best' to become frustrated and quit, or frustrated and use the 'best'.

It creates a huge balance issue, again we absolutely have to balance around the best defense to make the game playable, which means bad becomes worthless and leads to the exact same thing most of you are worried about, every city being the same. You will almost assuredly see more variety with our system than the one you propose.
So I guess its a no?
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  #28  
Old 02-13-2010, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfang View Post
the dragon factionneed Unwilling labor or mindless slaves that can do their dirty work it can still be dragon faction since they control it. Maybe you can use drakes that have not gotten their wings yet as a unit? That could be awesome.
Has already been said there the main grunts will be half-dragons bascily if you played WoW the dragons they have in there that have 2 legs. if you havent just think of a human/dragon mix then take the wings away.
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  #29  
Old 02-13-2010, 10:15 AM
blackfang blackfang is offline
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I was thinking this style maybe

They look awesome
As for the drake i would guess this kinda represent it, walk on four legs without the wings. They are like lions that breathe fire and eat everything meaty they can get their hold off.


Do you get the picture?
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  #30  
Old 02-13-2010, 10:33 AM
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City and Player Customization - we have been considering adding more hero customization. Heroes will definitely have some in-depth abilities and a bit of customization in-game.

The Environment - Whoever gave the impression that you will be fighting always in cities was wrong
You can do fighting with enemies in the open areas of regions as much as you want. The rewards and methods for fighting in the field are different, too. More on this later once we want to reveal it.

The Forgotten Races - Dwarves and Dragons will make it into the game, but not as a full race until a possible expansion. Minotaurs may, as well.
You can visit dwarven or dragon areas to purchase mercenaries for your army from them. You can play many quests or even campaigns which take place in dragon or dwarven regions. Many other things can be done in these regions, too.

Magic - You have the gist of how magic works.
More information on magic will come later once we want to reveal it.

Last edited by Andy Joslin : 02-13-2010 at 10:44 AM.
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