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  #51  
Old 10-22-2007, 11:59 AM
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I'll be blunt about this: if the best course of action is to just turtle and develop in the early game rather than fight, this game will be rather boring. Not to mention that the underlying problem of "rushing" (that is, the first battle is the decisive one that decides the match) isn't alleviated.

The problem with "rushing" that most people have isn't that it comes too early, but rather that the game ends too soon afterwards. It doesn't matter how much you delay rushing, it's not going to fix the underlying problem that the first battle is overly decisive. If anything, it exacerbates the issue because the game is easier to reduce down to a formula. If there is less human interaction (ie, no battles), the game is more predictable, and plays more easily into the hands of someone who has a well timed build order.

I am not so much a detractor of "rush > boom > turtle > rush" so much as I believe it is misrepresented in a naive fashion. First and foremost, all strategies are rather a mix of the above. Some lean more heavily on one aspect rather than others, but all take aspects from each. If you had to devote yourself to only one, after all, the game would just be a rather overcomplicated version of rocks-paper-scissors (unfortunately, too many RTS games are that way). To abandon any one of these aspects should be suicide. To break things down:

Rush: this aspect of the game is about interfering with your opponent's development. The goal of such attacks is to disrupt their economy and growth so your own can outpace them. Naturally, this aspect has difficulty breaching dedicated defenses.

Boom: this aspect of the game encompasses increasing your income and making your units better. In essence, it increases your potential, allowing you to field a better army than your opponent (if you've invested in such an army). Naturally, this aspect is vulnerable to enemy attacks.

Turtle: this aspect of the game is about protecting your existing assets and preventing the enemy from destroying them. Turtling needs to fill a very special role, in that it not only allows you to protect your assets, but use your army for offensive purposes knowing you have something to fall back on.

Many games have improperly balanced the three. BFME2's problem isn't so much that rushing is strong, but rather that turtling is weak and boom is vulnerable. In that game, buildings had very low HP, so rushers had an easy time destroying enemy assets. Defenses were expensive and remarkably ineffective at what they did. Because of this, the only valid strategy was to launch reckless offensives. The only defense against enemy offensives was counter-offensives. It caused a nightmarish scenario that could end very quickly. No one could "grow" because investing in booming was suicide. No one could defend because the resources required to build adequate defenses in the first place necessitated an economy you couldn't have. As a result, all that was left was attacking.

If you remove rushing, you will create a similar problem. If rushing is not valid, either because defenses are too cheap, too strong, or booming isn't vulnerable enough, then people will ignore the feature entirely. Perhaps a light defense just in case, but all out teching. The result will simply be that the person with the best build order - the one that reaches the high end unit that can make the kill first - will be the victor, and it will be a very uneventful game.

I also dislike the term harassing, as it implies that the moment enemy defenders show up that you run away. That's no fun, either. We want to see battles, and encourage early fights. I find the best way to do that is to encourage people to build many settlements early game. The main settlement may be considered impervious and designed as such, but the outlying settlements should be the goal of the battles. Losing any one isn't the end of the world, but if someone can take them all he's set himself up for a quick win, and probably deserves it.
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  #52  
Old 10-22-2007, 02:30 PM
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I agree with Darvin on this, balance is key. I personally, am looking forward to the turtle and economic features of the game. Sure I think rushing would be good for early resources as well as holding a player down but I would like this game to be more focused on building up and launching an assualt on your enemy to make it more realistic as well as fun. Still, rushing is an important feauture of the game, and without it, the game would be very dull. One thing I don't want to happen is this however: I downloaded a demo for the game The Settlers: Rise of An Empire and all it was was building and no war. Now I know that DoF will be based on fighting more than building but I think the player should get a joy out of building as well as being able to battle as well. To me, that is what makes a great game.
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  #53  
Old 10-23-2007, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axal01 View Post
I am strongly against "rushing" It is a strategy or tactic used by people who are afraid they can't handle a long game thus causing them to try and end the game in 5-10 minutes, not to mention no idea how the connections will be in this game it could take 10 minutes to get a game going and then the game ends in less than 10 mins so basically your wasting your time. I just left Supreme commander because they are coming out with a new one called Forged alliance which gives advantages to rushers so people who can't think fast or do good micro will have the disadvantage and end up leaving the game and becoming a ghost town like every other rts that supports rushing and heavy micromanagment. The whole idea about having a peace time is to build economy,defenses,army. Then attacking. At least let your opponent have the opportunity to give yourself a good fight. I would hate to just attack within 5-10 minutes and find myself back in the lobby to do it all over again. The main thing why people rush, is because of ranked games, if its ranked they will rush so they can get a nice score and get up in the top.. I despise games with ranking so and so on. Im new here so give me a break, ive had enough of games with ranking. Now to contradict myself, I wont have a problem with rushing in this game, as long as there is no ranking system. Peace
Well, sorry to disappoint you, but DoF will give you a ranking. BUT don't run off just yet, there are things that will help your "non-rushing" mentality. We aren't going to stop rushing all together, because it is a viable strategy, and to limit a player from playing they way they like is just bad thinking as far as game design goes.

However, in DoF's MMO aspect, you will find that rushing isn't going to nessicarily decide the outcome of a battle in 5-10 minutes, your going to have a fortress that is already well defended, and when people come at you, you will be ready for them. Rushers will have to think with different tactics then throwing their entire army at an opponent in the first 5 minutes of a game, because it's a good chance their not going to succeed.

To win a match in DoF, your going to have to employ multiple tactics and use everything that is at your disposal. We are trying to create DoF to be more realisitc, so that it's not a game based on set numbers, but on a players experience and skill, and in some cases, luck. This doesn't mean long drawn out games of an hour or so, we are expecting players will actually get to more intense play with having their fortresses ready to battle. In my experience, rushing usally succeeds because a person rushes against someone who hasn't built a big enough army, or enough defenses to fend off said rush and the rusher is victorious.

Last edited by Ryan Zelazny : 10-23-2007 at 05:34 PM.
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  #54  
Old 10-24-2007, 02:24 AM
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Nah, I won't run off Afterall it is a magic and sword type of game and not a nuke and laser fight.lol I prefer fantasy and well it is Dawn of Fantasy
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  #55  
Old 10-24-2007, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Zelazny View Post
To win a match in DoF, your going to have to employ multiple tactics and use everything that is at your disposal. We are trying to create DoF to be more realisitc, so that it's not a game based on set numbers, but on a players experience and skill, and in some cases, luck. This doesn't mean long drawn out games of an hour or so, we are expecting players will actually get to more intense play with having their fortresses ready to battle. In my experience, rushing usally succeeds because a person rushes against someone who hasn't built a big enough army, or enough defenses to fend off said rush and the rusher is victorious.
Sounds good too me, if thats what gonna happend in a game
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  #56  
Old 10-25-2007, 01:39 PM
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wooah long post Darvin
Quote:
I also dislike the term harassing, as it implies that the moment enemy defenders show up that you run away. That's no fun, either. We want to see battles, and encourage early fights. I find the best way to do that is to encourage people to build many settlements early game. The main settlement may be considered impervious and designed as such, but the outlying settlements should be the goal of the battles. Losing any one isn't the end of the world, but if someone can take them all he's set himself up for a quick win, and probably deserves it.
By my definition of harrassing it is more of an annoyance but advantageous, not a cowardice fight then flight. Early on destroying what you can with small units to "keep them occupied", preventing them from building up armies/defences as fast as they'd hope to. And gain an insight into what they're doing. Call it a "Human Palintir".
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  #57  
Old 10-27-2007, 12:12 PM
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Hey,I just thought about something... What if you attacked some guy like 3-5 minutes and u failed and u just kept attacking non stop and u couldnt kill the guy early? Would you quit so it doesn't go into a long game?
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  #58  
Old 10-27-2007, 12:56 PM
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That actually happens in some games, where if the game looks like it's drawing on for longer than 5 or 6 minutes, competitive players just quit and start a new game. The idea is very simple; why fight twenty or thirty minutes for a match you may or may not win when you can just quite and fight half a dozen matches which will probably be much easier.

This is alleviated through a good matchup system that ensures that the next opponent will be of similar difficulty, so it's a bad gamble to quit and hope for an easier opponent. Good matchup systems should have everyone gravitating to a 50/50 win/loss ratio. If you're any lower than you're being matched with people who are too good for your skill level, and any higher and you're being matched with people who are not good enough to be considered at your skill level.
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  #59  
Old 10-27-2007, 01:47 PM
frankein_fish frankein_fish is offline
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God i hate those who quit after some minutes
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  #60  
Old 10-27-2007, 02:27 PM
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Hello,

I've been reading up on these forums for awhile, I'm very interested in the game, and It will provide very unique features compared to other RTS games, and that's what I like. So I decided to sign up and reply to this.

I agree that rushing is a valuable strategy in gameplay, early attacking plays an important role in keeping the enemy occupied, and keeping the fight away from you. I like that Dawn of Fantasy will make it so not all rushes are effective like you may see in other games, like Battle for Middle Earth 2. Players will have a chance to defend, and retaliate in this game. So keeping the base of rushing on the scale with Dawn of Fantasy is the way to go, and adds some variety in strategy, and tactics you can employ on your enemies.

But still yet, some people won't like the rushing aspect. Under many circumstances, rushing can strain people, and I do know people that are like that, because they can't keep up with rushing. They end up quiting a game, or get too stressed to do well enough, and it costs them the game. Which is why I think there should be atleast an option for peace time for some of these players that really need it, that way there is alittle diversity to keep the community happy.

Besides that, the people that want the normal gameplay, and can handle it, and like the challenge of getting beat into early game, they don't have to enable the option. So putting an option, to enable at will before a game starts would be very simple to do, and would not affect the orginal gameplay for other players. It's just nice to have the option there.

But I agree with Darvin, it keeps a constant collision on forces on the battlefield. And because of DoF's unique aspects, and gameplay, and the realism it presents, the battle may generally be long anyways, and rushing might not be that effective like Ryan was saying, and they won't nessesarly succeed, so then again it may be fairly easy on anyones part to play the game and not worry over the threat of rushing, because you are sitting behide a defensive wall afterall.
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