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  #1  
Old 01-27-2014, 07:29 PM
Svulnar Svulnar is offline
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Default Outrage Of #23

most of these are great, matter of fact most of these are down right just what the game needed in-order to maintain stability. HOWEVER, i have the one that is outrageous in bold red.

:::::Balance Adjustments:::::
-Lightning Storm spell effects greatly reduced
-Dragon Slayer bonus VS Dragons increased by 100%
-Healing locations not longer heal units in combat
-Healing locations healing speed decreased
-Human start-up quest - Orc Camp - made much easier - no Ogres
-Ranged Siege Weapons fire much faster, making them more effective
-Human Siege unit Dragon's Breath damage reduced 2X
-Lowered the cost of Mantlet, Hydra and Army Slot in the Market
-Greatly reduced Ogre stats - unit was OP
-New town starting Crowns increased to 24
-King of the World Achievement requires player to conquer all of the 28 NPC towns.

Why? Why greatly reduce an Ogre's stats? As is they are barely worth taking over almost any other orc squad. For example, the Orc Impaler Vs Ogre if they are both specced for max dmg, max res, and remainder *12* in health*

Orc Impaler:
Maximum damage potential *when using charge with battle stand and charge*: 1134
Defenses in Battle Stand: 70/65/30
Health: 14060, per unit 1406

Ogre:
Maximum damage potential *when using Rage*: 1415
Passive Defenses: 70/65/50
Health: 22000

When you put it this way, Ogre does look OP doesn't it? But just like many things, it isn't really how it looks on paper. For example, lets look at just a few differences between these 2 who fulfill a similar role.

Rage Cost: 1300 health. 400 instantly, and 900 over 30 seconds. This gives the ogre 400 more attack. So without this, a max dmg Ogre is sitting at around 1015.

Charge Cost: 50 stamina, with a cd of 30 seconds, and lasts just as long. This beauty gives the Impalers a whopping 125% more dmg during the duration *which can be chained together to maintain, just stamina heavy* This ability makes a Mounted Impaler go from 592 per unit, to an amazing 1132. All 10 together would then have 11320 damage. Talk about focus fire.

Battle Stand: without this, the MI have only 468 attack not bad. It does however also add defenses in the form of 25/20/0. It costs 15 stamina to active, and .75 per second to maintain. Talk about a drain when they are charging. Granted, since MI are usually after archers they tend to hang out in Serpent stand which makes them incredibly fast even with 0 points put into endurance.

I compare these two because they fill almost the same role, but not quite. While MI are a amazing strike Calvary, they also have neutral footing with other Calvary unlike MS, but lack a dmg bonus vs infantry other than archers. The Ogre on the other hand, has a dmg boost against Calvary and heavy armor infantry. They are however weak against pikes, just like MI, but unlike MI, they are also weak against Archers.

I would also like to mention the affects of AoE healing on the two different units. For a base, lets use the Orc Shaman and his aoe heal *512 or so range* that heals 1500 damage. While the heal remains the same, its affect on each unit is drastically different due to how many are in each squad. The ogre, being a one man squad, only heals 1500 heal or so as prescribed. The IM on the other hand, just like every other squad, receives drastically more healing. I might even dare to say 10x more *though, it doesn't seem to add up to that, likely due to resurrecting fallen units within the squad, but they were not there for the heal itself so gain no benefit from it*. A IM that has all 10 units still *but is very injured* can be healed to full in 1-2 casts, because all AoE heals affect things by unit, not squad. On top of this is the compounding problem that to have its high damage out put, an Ogre has to spend 1300 of its health... While the IM benefits from multiple units and the ability to make use of stamina more, the Ogre has to use its health for both its survival, and its offense if it wants to do its max dmg.

Not to mention that while their aoe swing can be quite deadly, it is a fairly small arc that aims for directly in front of the Ogre. Unlike IM though, an Ogre can easily be surrounded for max incoming damage, and they tend to die very fast if focused. The only time an Ogre can survive is it retreats slightly to force enemies into the rest of your army, or for it to be receiving such pitiful damage that it just doesn't matter. If a squad of IM gets focused, they can easily outrun any that would attack them and can draw enemy lines to thin so the rest of your army can strike a fatal blow. Even then, should IM be focused, they have their own self heals and not needing to rely on support units. While small in comparison to the orc shamans heal, at a measly 250 per unit, it has only a cd of 5 seconds. Which, if you do the math, ends up being the exact same Hps to cd ratio as shaman heal, just with a drastically higher stamina cost to use it that many times.

While Ogres do have some nice features themselves, such as the ability to attack gates *laughable due to such low dmg* and the fact that they can pop their dmg high for a short amount of time in aoe, they just do not constitute a nerf at this time. While its dmg bonus vs heavy armor infantry and cavalry is useful, if its stats are *greatly reduced* then it would make a lot more sense to simply replace them all with beserkers who kill other infantry an an insane pace as well, they have a much higher dmg potential vs infantry than even IM. While I may lose some anti-cavalry, it just does not make sense to nerf Ogres.

The only plus side that they have a significant edge over the other units that you can spec for dmg, is the fact that they can just stand in a Thunder Storm and survive the entire time, where as anything with many units dies rather fast even if tank specced. This is an entire separate issue however.

There should really be an open discussion between the players and the devs concerning balance, transparency and explanations for nerfs or buffs that may come, may lead to less people having their armies completely changed, it would also give each player the chance to defend themselves rather than to just ride the nerf/buff train.

I hope that you at least read my entire post and say why you came to this decision on Ogres, because as is, it makes no sense at all.
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"To underestimate a Goblin Horde is to stare into the face of Hell and think it to be heaven." ~ Svulnar, The Goblin King

Last edited by Svulnar : 01-27-2014 at 07:41 PM. Reason: fixing spelling errors made due to headache.
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  #2  
Old 01-27-2014, 09:24 PM
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Langor Langor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svulnar View Post
There should really be an open discussion between the players and the devs concerning balance, transparency and explanations for nerfs or buffs that may come, may lead to less people having their armies completely changed, it would also give each player the chance to defend themselves rather than to just ride the nerf/buff train.
Not to take away from the post but this is one of the biggest issues here and a great suggestion. Although you have great communication with the community it is obvious that their is a lack of communication in certain changes to the game. If you are set with the patch notes please at least learn from what he wrote here. Communication about balance changes is as important as helping new players and fixing bugs. Of course, I am not talking about the commonly known balance changes such as wizards because the community has spoken out and you have responded. You need to do that with major balance (significant) changes to gameplay to make sure its the right choice whether it be a unit or building.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svulnar View Post
Why? Why greatly reduce an Ogre's stats? As is they are barely worth taking over almost any other orc squad.
It is obvious that Svulnar felt blind sighted from this sudden patch note. Once again, he would have time to express his feelings towards the balance change if there was communication. Many players will have advance strategies and uses for certain units that may not be commonly known. Which nerfing a single unit may sound like it balances things but it would actually unbalance it by making other units more proficient with the given units role. As you will have seen in the following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svulnar View Post
Orc Impaler:
Maximum damage potential *when using charge with battle stand and charge*: 1134
Defenses in Battle Stand: 70/65/30
Health: 14060, per unit 1406

Ogre:
Maximum damage potential *when using Rage*: 1415
Passive Defenses: 70/65/50
Health: 22000

When you put it this way, Ogre does look OP doesn't it? But just like many things, it isn't really how it looks on paper. For example, lets look at just a few differences between these 2 who fulfill a similar role.
I never estimate a unit on its base stats. And base stats should never sorely be used for balance purposes. The base stats will only inform you of that units foundation to the active abilities it has for planning future roles and strategies with that unit. A great example of why is in the following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svulnar View Post
Rage Cost: 1300 health. 400 instantly, and 900 over 30 seconds. This gives the ogre 400 more attack. So without this, a max dmg Ogre is sitting at around 1015.

Charge Cost: 50 stamina, with a cd of 30 seconds, and lasts just as long. This beauty gives the Impalers a whopping 125% more dmg during the duration *which can be chained together to maintain, just stamina heavy* This ability makes a Mounted Impaler go from 592 per unit, to an amazing 1132. All 10 together would then have 11320 damage. Talk about focus fire.

Battle Stand: without this, the MI have only 468 attack not bad. It does however also add defenses in the form of 25/20/0. It costs 15 stamina to active, and .75 per second to maintain. Talk about a drain when they are charging. Granted, since MI are usually after archers they tend to hang out in Serpent stand which makes them incredibly fast even with 0 points put into endurance.

I compare these two because they fill almost the same role, but not quite. While MI are a amazing strike Calvary, they also have neutral footing with other Calvary unlike MS, but lack a dmg bonus vs infantry other than archers. The Ogre on the other hand, has a dmg boost against Calvary and heavy armor infantry. They are however weak against pikes, just like MI, but unlike MI, they are also weak against Archers.

I would also like to mention the affects of AoE healing on the two different units. For a base, lets use the Orc Shaman and his aoe heal *512 or so range* that heals 1500 damage. While the heal remains the same, its affect on each unit is drastically different due to how many are in each squad. The ogre, being a one man squad, only heals 1500 heal or so as prescribed. The IM on the other hand, just like every other squad, receives drastically more healing. I might even dare to say 10x more *though, it doesn't seem to add up to that, likely due to resurrecting fallen units within the squad, but they were not there for the heal itself so gain no benefit from it*. A IM that has all 10 units still *but is very injured* can be healed to full in 1-2 casts, because all AoE heals affect things by unit, not squad. On top of this is the compounding problem that to have its high damage out put, an Ogre has to spend 1300 of its health... While the IM benefits from multiple units and the ability to make use of stamina more, the Ogre has to use its health for both its survival, and its offense if it wants to do its max dmg.

Not to mention that while their aoe swing can be quite deadly, it is a fairly small arc that aims for directly in front of the Ogre. Unlike IM though, an Ogre can easily be surrounded for max incoming damage, and they tend to die very fast if focused. The only time an Ogre can survive is it retreats slightly to force enemies into the rest of your army, or for it to be receiving such pitiful damage that it just doesn't matter. If a squad of IM gets focused, they can easily outrun any that would attack them and can draw enemy lines to thin so the rest of your army can strike a fatal blow. Even then, should IM be focused, they have their own self heals and not needing to rely on support units. While small in comparison to the orc shamans heal, at a measly 250 per unit, it has only a cd of 5 seconds. Which, if you do the math, ends up being the exact same Hps to cd ratio as shaman heal, just with a drastically higher stamina cost to use it that many times.

While Ogres do have some nice features themselves, such as the ability to attack gates *laughable due to such low dmg* and the fact that they can pop their dmg high for a short amount of time in aoe, they just do not constitute a nerf at this time. While its dmg bonus vs heavy armor infantry and cavalry is useful, if its stats are *greatly reduced* then it would make a lot more sense to simply replace them all with beserkers who kill other infantry an an insane pace as well, they have a much higher dmg potential vs infantry than even IM. While I may lose some anti-cavalry, it just does not make sense to nerf Ogres.
Only when one knows the full capabilities of a unit will he know the balance of that unit. If you don't fully understand a unit and what roles it can and does play you cannot effectively balance it. That includes knowing similar units that can play the same role. If you had communicated with the community about this change it would of given Svulnar a chance to say his piece. You may of already known all of this but Svulnar would have an answer to why there is this change and may even had agreed with you. Not even the veterans know everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svulnar View Post
I hope that you at least read my entire post and say why you came to this decision on Ogres, because as is, it makes no sense at all.
I am sure you will get a response Svulnar. Heck, you might even agree with the change after we hear why there is a change. But that's hard to do if you don't understand why. With it maybe a more clear answer than what we now know listed below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konstantin Fomenko View Post
:::::Balance Adjustments:::::

-Human start-up quest - Orc Camp - made much easier - no Ogres
-Greatly reduced Ogre stats - unit was OP
Hopefully this wasn't changed because beginner human players couldn't kill Ogres. Because from the current patch notes that's all we know right now.


Suggestion: Create a future patch notes thread. That way if you are busy trying to make the game better and a player notices something off or has questions they can bring it up without you having to explain every patch note. This in itself is a form of communication. This will also make players not feel like they have been cheated out of a unit and a certain strategy for no reason.
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  #3  
Old 01-28-2014, 09:06 AM
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Konstantin Fomenko Konstantin Fomenko is offline
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Sorry for the short reply - very limited on time today with the coming up patch.

As far as our balancing changes - we never make them without a lot of consideration, and we base it on both player feedback and our own experience - as you might have noticed most of our developers, and mods spend many hours in game easy day.

With this specific Ogre changes - we had to address 3 issues:
-Ogres are really easy to acquire and leveled up - due to are of effect damage
-Level 20 Ogres became unstoppable - I could solo most NPC towns with 30 Level 20 Ogres without need of any other unit.
-We had A LOT of player feedback on this in-game with understandable complaints from PvP

And FYI here`s the list of changes, yes it is a big change, but in our tests it works rather well. If not - we can always tweak it in the next patch.

Before:
HitPoints = 15000
Attack = 440
Strength = 10

Now:
HitPoints = 9500
Attack = 230
Strength = 8
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  #4  
Old 01-28-2014, 09:08 AM
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Langor Langor is offline
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Thank you for taking the time to create such a detailed reply. Hopefully Svulnar will understand at the current time.

Svulnar, this gives you something to test yourself now and report back with your findings now that you know it is not set in stone.
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