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  #11  
Old 04-29-2013, 04:34 PM
GooberLord GooberLord is offline
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I would be interested in seeing what a current developer thinks of this thread. There hasn't been a comment on it yet from their perspective, despite this being one of the better ideas on the suggestion forum right now.

As to reply to the 'Pay-To-Win' comment, reviving dead units wouldn't be pay-to-win at all. Since Crowns can be obtained in abundance by any player, it isn't like only those who pay for them could possibly revive units. And it isn't buying units fresh that is the matter but rather covering up a mistake basically. If someone pays for that, it's Pay-To-Lose-Less more than anything. A player who can possibly revive units simply is less irritated with a crushing army loss, more apt and able to rejoin PvP in the future, and overall more satisfied since the hope for saving expensive/beloved units still exists.

Not to mention another great use for Crowns, which should delight the developers to no end...

Last edited by GooberLord : 04-29-2013 at 04:39 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-30-2013, 07:34 AM
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I have been reading the thread, I was just seeing what people have to say before responding.

Resurrection:
I think we'd only add resurrection of units if that's what a majority of players wanted and we could get a good system in place.

It might be something along the lines of how your main Hero and low level Dragons go unconscious instead of dying. We could make it so that the last member of a battalion goes unconscious too. Then to revive them, you have to click a revive button, with a Crown cost based on level e.g. 1 Crown per level regardless of type, so it might not be worth resurrecting a lvl 10 Maceman for 10 Crowns but could be worthwhile resurrecting a lvl 20 Knight for 20 Crowns and it would definitely be worth resurrecting a lvl 1 Dragonslayer for 1 Crown rather than spending 30 on a new one.

If players don't want to revive the unit, they could discard it from their army. The unconscious unit would still add Strength to an army, so not discarding/reviving would risk that army being attacked by a stronger army.

We could add a restriction that you have to transfer units to your homeland before you can revive them, or at the very least they can't be revived until the next scenario.

I don't think this option would make the game pay-2-win, as you'd still be pitted against players of a similar strength.

Battle Rewards:
Players who see the battle to the end but lose do get a Crown reward (half what the winner gets). We did have a reward for those who pay off after joining a battle, but that was removed, although we could re-instate it.

Alternatively, I was also thinking that maybe after 10mins of battle, a player could retreat without having to pay off.

We could also increase rewards generally.

Flag Armies for PvP:
This is something we could add in soon, allowing players to flag an army as available for PvP, even with Attack Protection on.

Arena Battles/Varied PvP:
Some more varied PvP options is something we will be looking at.

Defending allied NPC cities against player attacks is something we are looking to add in the Siegeworks expansion. Players would take command of the city's garrison (not their own units) and fight off a player army to retain control of the city.

Not risking your own units is something we could expand on. For example, we could have several repeatable Border Defense quests, where a player sends his Hero to take command of units on the border and fights off an attacking army. The opposing army would be commanded by a player of the appropriate race, if no player is found (or player declines) then an AI player is used instead.

As players won't be risking their own units, but will still get a small reward, I can see this becoming a popular form of PvP.
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  #13  
Old 04-30-2013, 01:50 PM
Ailric Ailric is offline
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Thanks Brian, I like the idea of fixed cost based on level, it is a reasonable combination. Is a level 20 unit worth 20 crowns? Possibly. It would potentially soften the blow of a major loss. The cost still seems too steep to PvP with a high level army, 50% losses on a 2500 point army would still be staggering from a crown perspective 600-1000 crowns? It certainly makes heros and dragons viable for an army, the majority of units would still have be be left for dead at that rate, I think that I am very efficient in my crown farming, but I would not be able to afford those rates which takes us back to PvP with lower level troops as being a good viable solution under this model with the odd hero or dragon thrown in.

Not a bad solution, and I understand your answer is a first brush at thinking about it and getting feedback.

As a counter and to promote discussion and PvP with higher level troops, and to keep people fighting on the field longer, what are everyones thoughts on a graduated scale weighted toward the victor (yes I know he is already losing less and gaining more, but the idea is to have people trying to win rather than early retreats when things get questionable on the field). Perhaps a .5 x level revive for the victor and .7 for the defeated (rounded up to nearest crown)? Or further weighted where units below level 10 were 1 crown per level then it dropped .5 crowns per level after 10, so at 12 it would cost 11 crowns, at 14 it would cost 12 crowns, etc. A level 20 unit would cost 15 crowns to revive and a level 60 dragon would cost 35.

Target in my opinion should be 300-400 crowns to have your 2000 point army back to something near fighting strength on the outside.
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  #14  
Old 04-30-2013, 05:00 PM
GooberLord GooberLord is offline
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Reviving:Thanks for replying Brian. I REALLY like the idea of having the last unit in the battalion go 'Unconscious' and have to be taken back to your Home City or a friendly NPC Town to get the possibility of reviving for Crowns. That would let a player decide whether to revive or drop them at some later time, as well as an interesting idea for a 'Hospital' building to store wounded units (otherwise they'll clutter up an army and be literally dead weight) - which in turn could be a building that either revives one unit at a time VERY slowly (hours or days depending on how leveled/important it is) or can be instantly healed with that Crown system. But that's speculation onto other matters really.

I think that the Crown cost for reviving units should depend on both level and unit type. For instance, a cheap Maceman and a Royal Dragon shouldn't both be 10 Crowns to revive if both are the same level. I think each unit should have a different scaling cost associated with it, whereas a Maceman may scale at .5 Crowns per level (10crowns/lvl20), a Mounted Knight at say ~1.0 (20crowns/lvl20), and a Royal Dragon at 1.5 (30crowns/lvl20). Or some scaling system like that depending on how valuable that particular unit type already is. That would make the most sense to me instead of seeing a Maceman and a Dragon scaling the same to revive. In the end there are multiple ways to fiddle with the details, but I do believe many players would want the option of reviving units available to them, and are willing to expend Crowns to get it.

Battle Rewards: What normally happens in at least my battles that start to turn south is I retreat at a lower cost once a lot of my army has been hurt or killed to avoid further losses, thus lose out on getting any reward. If you have to stay the whole fight and lose more than half your army to get a little 1/2 Crown reward, I can't see it being worth it. But if you have a certain point in the battle (be it time, army strength reduction %, or whatever) whereas a player could retreat and still get the Crown reward, that may be nice. I would suggest it being an overall army health reduction or whatever the current surrender system relies on instead of time to avoid players entering fights, running uncatchably around the map for 10 minutes, then retreating for their little reward. The decision-making device should ensure a fight has actually occurred before letting the loser get their pittance.

Varied PvP: I like those ideas, though my only qualm with them may be that if the player hasn't made those armies, they won't feel very connected at all with them (= not as fun). I think they would be great options for more PvP for sure - but more PvP options for a player-built army would be even more fun for players I think. Then they feel directly invested in the outcomes, and with a Revive option for those invested armies a player wont be terrified to use them in these new PvP avenues. But both player and not-player army control would be great additions to the current limited PvP. The defense idea against NPC/Player army attacks as you suggested would be delightful in my opinion.
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  #15  
Old 04-30-2013, 08:06 PM
Laradon Laradon is offline
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I think the actual worth of your army has to play a role in combat somehow. 300 Strength can be made up of an army worth close to nothing or of an army worth half a million gold.
As of now this is not taken into consideration at all. Thus if you pay out the game doesnt care if you have to give up 2 lvl 5 units worth nothing or 2 lvl 20 units worth 50k gold.
The game doesnt reward more crowns for the greater risk either if lvl 20 armies clash. It's for the fun of it, but not for the reward, while there is huge amounts of gold at stake.

I want to fight more maxed out Elite armies. Fighting those battles gives you the best _ideal_ PvP experience, while most battles are just no fun at all if someone tries to attack you with newly recruited units because they dont want to lose much. But after fighting a similar army and winning, the defeated player loses a huge amount of gold, sometimes they are offline after because It could take hours of gameplay to get that amount of gold back. Last days I killed of many lvl 50-60 royal dragons and those players went offline straight after and I understand it. Those were worth 120 crowns and 200-300k gold and they just disappeared in 1 battle taking maybe 5 minutes without any compensation for that huge risk.
At one point I lost great parts of my army too, which left me with like -400k gold and it took rly long to get that fixed up again. Time in which I didn't want to play at all, went on a long time protection and just waited for things to be back up.

Something has to be done to fix those things. Some Ideas were allready consideres. Also decreasing the cost of unit training by a huge amount could be nice. ( like 1/4 of the costs they take now). Or really really good rewards that are a mirror to the great risk. First thing could be to increase the looting values, so people start to actually loot corpses after pvp battles again. They all loot like they were lvl 1 units, while they are worth like x50 the gold. If defeated lvl 20 units would loot 100 gold instead of 2 gold per body it would be worthwhile. Was laughing when i defeated a lvl 60 Highknight and his body showed me 500 gold loot Dead royal dragons give back 30 crowns of the 120. Defeated armies should give back at least 1/4 of their worth too. For this to be not exploitable, your squadleader idea comes in handy here. If the whole squad dies, the last one who drops, the squadleader, has the gold the troop was worth, i.e lvl 20 swordsman 20k gold, last guy drops has 5000 gold in it. Maybe disable the orc looter trait on that one :P. On another thought this wouldn't compensate at all if the winner takes that loot. So maybe something else has to be done. Auto loot for both would be nice. Swordsman was worth 20k, winner gets 5 loser gets 5, loser got compensated a bit. Winner got rewarded for the risk of this fight. The game still lost 10k gold. All are happy. Or loser gets 10k winner 5k and only 5k are lost. With 1/4 it's still hard work to get that army back together. Well theres lotsa room for thoughts on this one.


I think that many people quit this game after a major defeat, that shouldn't be. Kinda reminds me of MMORPGs with Full Loot Systems in place in which you get completly cleaned of all items after a defeat and only the elite survive in the end and continue playing.

Little Edit on next day: And It's actually worse then those MMORPGs. In those I have the chance to give the items back to the defeated player to show him that it was a good fight etc., here all the gold is lost. I've allready trashed armies worth millions of gold and like 1% of it's value was retained. I can't even compensate players myself for their huge loses, because my city doesn't generate that much. In this game you just make people quit by doing PvP. That's why im doing less and less of it, too. Guess if this continues on for a while I might even quit too, because making people quit by just wanting to fight isn't nice either. In my honest opinion something has to be done to save this game, and fast.

Last edited by Laradon : 05-01-2013 at 05:12 AM.
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  #16  
Old 05-01-2013, 11:13 AM
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Brian Shingles Brian Shingles is offline
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Good point about the loot not matching the units value. I'm changing the loot system so it's based off unit cost and scales with levels. Should be out in the next patch.

I think maybe for expensive units that cost Crowns like Dragons and Heroes we might consider making it so that they don't die at all, but instead just go unconscious and lose half their levels. That way there is still a loss but not a huge (possibly financial) loss.

Other more easily acquired units we could still look at adding a revive/resurrect option with cost based on Strength and Level.
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  #17  
Old 05-01-2013, 08:22 PM
forandever forandever is offline
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Default PvP matching system

Suppose <level 20 Kinghts one group> VS< level 1 Knights several groups> as a same Army strength.

I bet level 20 knights one group will surely win.

If there's an average level gap of 5(about 5? maybe 10?) between PvP attack side and defence side.. the match shouldn't happen even if they have same army strength. That's what I learned from experience(PvP Win around 130 /Lose 38 ?).


* when calculating the average level of army, the hero and the elite unit level should be calculated with some other methods.

Last edited by forandever : 05-01-2013 at 08:27 PM.
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  #18  
Old 05-01-2013, 10:14 PM
forandever forandever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Shingles View Post
Good point about the loot not matching the units value. I'm changing the loot system so it's based off unit cost and scales with levels. Should be out in the next patch.

I think maybe for expensive units that cost Crowns like Dragons and Heroes we might consider making it so that they don't die at all, but instead just go unconscious and lose half their levels. That way there is still a loss but not a huge (possibly financial) loss.

Other more easily acquired units we could still look at adding a revive/resurrect option with cost based on Strength and Level.
.. I'm worrying about the crown units'n not dying at all even if there will be some cost .

<The crown units not dying > can make the faction's difference meaningless.

Suppose there're all crown units regardless of their faction or race..
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  #19  
Old 05-01-2013, 10:26 PM
GooberLord GooberLord is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forandever View Post
.. I'm worrying about the crown units'n not dying at all even if there will be some cost .

<The crown units not dying > can make the faction's difference meaningless.

Suppose there're all crown units regardless of their faction or race..
I agree. I think that as developers you would shoot yourselves in the foot to make all Crown-Costing units basically immortal. I think they should fall under the same system as the regular units, as in they will die if not paid for reviving in some fashion. That would preserve the tactical choices the player would have to make so as not to unnecessarily risk their expensive units.


As for that previous 'Hospital' idea, if such a thing were to be made for this reviving idea, it would have a limited capacity (liable to some various upgrades) and only able to revive units for free over a long period of time and at a cost relative to the level/identity of the unit. A down unit would has a set amount of time before dying permanently (like a few hours or something), and Crowns could be paid to speed up or instantly heal units. Crown-Costing units would have a Crown cost built into them, slow revive or not.

So if there was a big battle that a player lost, they would likely put their best Crown-Costing units in first and either pay Crowns to fix them instantly and get more of their units in, or take the hit to their army and lose the little guys and still preserve the big ones.

Either way, players would get to choose and basically could always save their Crown-Cost units for free or at a Crown-premium, depending on how much of their army they wish to preserve and fight with sooner or later. It would also be a building type that would have a natural encouragement to build more of given their limited capacities and invaluable help to the player, especially late game.
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  #20  
Old 05-02-2013, 06:52 AM
forandever forandever is offline
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Default Disadvantage on quitting(or disconnected) side

It's frustating....

And it happens often..

When I spent half an hour and almost won the battle, the opponent just quit ( disconnected ).

And then.. the screen pause.. and everyone is just running at the same place, on the same ground.

And.. whether I click the <world map : It means surrender> or I also press the alt + F4, I lose my units, and I'm defeated.

This is crazy..

To promote PvP, there must be some protection not only for the loser but also for the winner.

If somebody quit the game(or disconnected) while in battle, he must be regarded to surrender
.

Last edited by forandever : 05-02-2013 at 06:56 AM.
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