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  #11  
Old 01-12-2010, 08:27 AM
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Ok you say it would be unrealistic for aragorn to charge into an army of zombies, guess what? i would too. If and army of zombies is spotted it is EVERY MAN at arms!!! And then charge, and you would not use undead to kill undead! Rather use angelic power or some kinda holy madness
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  #12  
Old 01-12-2010, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim View Post
Just imagine the epic lord of the rings film and replace orcs with human zombies. If you imagine aragorn charging into the battlefiend and cutting off groaning zombies heads then it just doesn't fit. There is no scientific explanation for why something doesn't fit, but the two genres just don't mix convincingly in my opinion.

Although orcs and magic don't exist, its fun to stretch your imagination. Animated corpses just seem a bit too unrealistic to me and stop me being caught up in it all.

A race of giant pink rabbits wouldn't fit either, but it is impossible to explain why they look fine in pokemon but not here. Mixing genres just often looks wrong and ruins the effect.

What "mixing of genres"? There's no mixing of genres here. Undead have been a part of fantasy settings since forever. Warcraft, Warhammer, D&D and yes, even LoTR (army of the dead, barrow wights, nazgul), all have undead in them.

Also you seem to imply that the undead consist exclusively of zombies which of course is not the case. For example the undead faction in WC3 has no zombies among its buildable units.

Do you really think zombies originated in B production horror movies? The undead myth (including "zombies") has existed since long before those movies were ever made. The undead have as much root in our mythology as elves, dwarves or pretty much any fantasy element.

And of course it "unrealistic" to have Aragorn fight a bunch of zombies. It's because the book is about men, elves, dwarves and orcs etc. and not zombies, it's a completely superfluous statement.

The reason why I was mildly rude to you is because you didn't seem to think things through at all but instead said "No undead plx! " without any sense to back it up.

You personally may not like the undead but you have no objective argument as to why they don't belong in a fantasy setting.
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  #13  
Old 01-12-2010, 11:20 AM
Pilgrim Pilgrim is offline
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Wikipedia is good enough to point out that the modern concept of "zombies" are not a natural evolution of old afro-caribbean voodoo myth or any other ancient myth.

Yes, the idea of the dead coming back to life had been thought of before, but thats hardly George A. Romero's (night of the living dead) fault and what we now conceive of as 'zombie', including the word, is a modern idea not based on historical predecesors.

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Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc View Post
What "mixing of genres"? There's no mixing of genres here. Undead have been a part of fantasy settings since forever. Warcraft, Warhammer, D&D and yes, even LoTR (army of the dead, barrow wights, nazgul), all have undead in them.
Yes, thats kind of my point. I wouldn't have brought the subject up if I hadn't realised that it has become a recurring theme in fantasy. Perhaps i should have said "no zombies please" instead of "no undead". Ghosts and the like fit in more nicely (but i didn't specify or even make a big deal because I didn't forsee one guy feeling the need to grill me about my post).
Note that a lot of what you list is aimed at teenagers, and LoTR doesn't include zombies.

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Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc View Post
Also you seem to imply that the undead consist exclusively of zombies which of course is not the case. For example the undead faction in WC3 has no zombies among its buildable units.
true, I don't dislike all undead, as long as i don't consider it silly or over the top. in the wc3 campaign there are zombies, and also both "ghouls" and "accolytes" are zombies. Just look at them, they are rotting and green and clearly dead bodies. And if you choose the UD faction in WoW then you create a zombie, with bits of face hanging off and everything.

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Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc View Post
And of course it "unrealistic" to have Aragorn fight a bunch of zombies. It's because the book is about men, elves, dwarves and orcs etc. and not zombies, it's a completely superfluous statement.
You can't be serious. You don't need me to point out to you that it goes without saying that you'd be imagining that the role of orcs was played by zombies, with all the necessary changes. This is totally demagogic. Again, dont put yourself down.

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Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc View Post
The reason why I was mildly rude to you is because you didn't seem to think things through at all but instead said "No undead plx! " without any sense to back it up.

You personally may not like the undead but you have no objective argument as to why they don't belong in a fantasy setting.
I wrote two lines, I gave my opinion and I kept it light hearted. I also accepted the opinions of others. When i write "I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games "
I'm not attempting to "make a statement" and no Jean, i didn't research and prepare a list of references to back my opinion up.

I've already explained that to me it just doesn't fit, just like an army of bunnies or of animated tables wouldn't fit. If i had been agressive or rude to anyone I would understand why you want to 'demand proof' but honestly.. it was just a post in a forum and I think its time we both just got over it. Thanks anyway.

Last edited by Pilgrim : 01-12-2010 at 11:24 AM.
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  #14  
Old 01-12-2010, 11:59 AM
zach12wqasxz zach12wqasxz is offline
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Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc View Post
No offense but that's a pretty crappy argument.
i agree it is not the best argument, but i do see his point, hordes of zombies do not belong in the same catagory as fat dwarves and shiny unicorns....most of the time

also i found your commet quite.....unecesary,...and a little mean, especially coming from a moderater, everyone hear has the right to share there opinion and thats what forums are about. the "no offense" part of your post doesnt make it so u can be rude to others.
just stateing my whole take on the matter.
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  #15  
Old 01-12-2010, 12:23 PM
Pilgrim Pilgrim is offline
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Originally Posted by zach12wqasxz View Post
i agree it is not the best argument, but i do see his point, hordes of zombies do not belong in the same catagory as fat dwarves and shiny unicorns....most of the time

also i found your commet quite.....unecesary,...and a little mean, especially coming from a moderater, everyone hear has the right to share there opinion and thats what forums are about. the "no offense" part of your post doesnt make it so u can be rude to others.
just stateing my whole take on the matter.
Thank you. Ah, hadn't seen that he is a mod as well. Oh well, at least I havent recieved any formal warning over the matter.
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  #16  
Old 01-12-2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim View Post
Wikipedia is good enough to point out that the modern concept of "zombies" are not a natural evolution of old afro-caribbean voodoo myth or any other ancient myth.


Yes, the idea of the dead coming back to life had been thought of before, but thats hardly George A. Romero's (night of the living dead) fault and what we now conceive of as 'zombie', including the word, is a modern idea not based on historical predecesors.

Not every zombie since his movie can be accredited to his movie. Everyone has different sources of inspiration, again, ancient literature and the voodoo myth have been cited for many cases of the modern zombie, not just Night of the living dead.

Yes, thats kind of my point. I wouldn't have brought the subject up if I hadn't realised that it has become a recurring theme in fantasy. Perhaps i should have said "no zombies please" instead of "no undead". Ghosts and the like fit in more nicely (but i didn't specify or even make a big deal because I didn't forsee one guy feeling the need to grill me about my post).
Note that a lot of what you list is aimed at teenagers, and LoTR doesn't include zombies.


Lotr actually does have zombie, zombies. Middle earth is a much bigger world than just the trilogy and the hobbit. It has tons of material - and there are in fact zombies in some of it. Reanimated corpses, not just the undead.

true, I don't dislike all undead, as long as i don't consider it silly or over the top. in the wc3 campaign there are zombies, and also both "ghouls" and "accolytes" are zombies. Just look at them, they are rotting and green and clearly dead bodies. And if you choose the UD faction in WoW then you create a zombie, with bits of face hanging off and everything.

Acolytes are actually humans, not the undead. They're a cult that view death and returning as the undead the ultimate reward. Ghouls are an 'evolved' zombie that has reached true undeath according to the lore, though specifically what that means is vague. They are really just slightly more intelligent zombies though, yes.

As for the Undead in World of Warcraft you can't call them zombies, they've retained all their intelligence. They truly are undead, it's an entirely different concept in this universe. Zombies are thralls that serve a master or their baser instinct to feed. Undeath is closer to well, immortality seeing as how all they lose of themselves is living tissue, now they're reanimated flesh with all the intelligence of their former life. I think a better comparison for the Undead is actually Frankenstein's monster, not zombies. Not an exact fit but much closer.


You can dislike zombies for whatever reasons you'd like to, that is your choice. Personally I've never liked the concept of the undead for various reasons, though that has more to do with the concept of undeath allowing an unstoppable army in the literal sense. But your argument is more bias and essentially zombies are bad because they're popular than anything else.

You also need to keep in mind the undead - zombies and skeletons in particular are also a staple to those of us who enjoy pen and paper RPGs. Almost every D&D character has gone through a zombie and skeleton infested graveyard/crypt at one point or another. Sure, a horde of the undead taking over the world scenario is outrageous can get rid of the suspension of disbelief - but I don't think the undead, either zombies or skeletons in and of themselves can kill the suspension of disbelief. A contained incident of uncontrolled magic ressurecting everything in a graveyard for example in the context of D&D was cool and interesting, zombies taking over the world in an apocalypse scenario maybe not so much, but most incarnations of zombies in high fantasy are NOT the cheap thiller movie zombie, they're a type of necromancy and used to create a more traditional army. Not to take over the world with a disease or virus. A big difference between high fantasy zombies and modern film zombies is simple - a zombie biting you means you almost always turn into one yourself very rapidly, or if you die you'll come back as one. In high fantasy however it requires either an item of considerable power, or necromancy in the form of spells/runes and what not. Being bitten only means that part of your flesh has been gnawed at, not that you're doomed to be a zombie. And indeed, the everything dead within an area/or anyone bitten will automatically become a zombie is a silly scenario, the way high fantasy does it for the most part is far more palatable and doesn't ruin the suspension of disbelief, at least not for most of us.
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Last edited by Josh Warner : 01-12-2010 at 12:48 PM.
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  #17  
Old 01-12-2010, 12:57 PM
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To me, zombies in fantasy like this seem more of a supporting "Character" like how the dragons are (right now atleast). The zombies can be summoned with magic to help as a "mercenary" if you will. If they were made as a faction, something/someone non-zombie would have to control them. Like in "dragon age" lore the darkspawn are unified, but only because of the archdemon other wise they are disorganized, attacking everything including themselves.
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  #18  
Old 01-12-2010, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Warner View Post
You can dislike zombies for whatever reasons you'd like to, that is your choice. Personally I've never liked the concept of the undead for various reasons, though that has more to do with the concept of undeath allowing an unstoppable army in the literal sense. But your argument is more bias and essentially zombies are bad because they're popular than anything else.

You also need to keep in mind the undead - zombies and skeletons in particular are also a staple to those of us who enjoy pen and paper RPGs. Almost every D&D character has gone through a zombie and skeleton infested graveyard/crypt at one point or another. Sure, a horde of the undead taking over the world scenario is outrageous can get rid of the suspension of disbelief - but I don't think the undead, either zombies or skeletons in and of themselves can kill the suspension of disbelief. A contained incident of uncontrolled magic ressurecting everything in a graveyard for example in the context of D&D was cool and interesting, zombies taking over the world in an apocalypse scenario maybe not so much, but most incarnations of zombies in high fantasy are NOT the cheap thiller movie zombie, they're a type of necromancy and used to create a more traditional army. Not to take over the world with a disease or virus. A big difference between high fantasy zombies and modern film zombies is simple - a zombie biting you means you almost always turn into one yourself very rapidly, or if you die you'll come back as one. In high fantasy however it requires either an item of considerable power, or necromancy in the form of spells/runes and what not. Being bitten only means that part of your flesh has been gnawed at, not that you're doomed to be a zombie. And indeed, the everything dead within an area/or anyone bitten will automatically become a zombie is a silly scenario, the way high fantasy does it for the most part is far more palatable and doesn't ruin the suspension of disbelief, at least not for most of us.
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To me, zombies in fantasy like this seem more of a supporting "Character" like how the dragons are (right now atleast). The zombies can be summoned with magic to help as a "mercenary" if you will. If they were made as a faction, something/someone non-zombie would have to control them. Like in "dragon age" lore the darkspawn are unified, but only because of the archdemon other wise they are disorganized, attacking everything including themselves.
you both have great points, it actually has changed my perspective of zombies in fantasy a little.
in my experience with zombies in games that have a slight fantasy like setting, there always like what josh said, not end of the world virus that infects all life instantly when exposed, but more magical like being summoned by a wizard or something.
but what with u have krabs said, you could get away with zombies in DOF, but ONLY ( in my opinion ) if you make it so that your wizards could raise fallen comrads to fight again. make it so the zombies are like bloody and tattered in there uniform, and no matter what unit they were before, make them all close range melee units. this would be an extremely powerful spell in my opinion. like before every battle i would enchant my soldiers to where if they died in battle they would raise again as undead soldiers. this is the only way to mix in zombies with DOF and have it all make sense
btw i still think zombies dont belong very well in fantasy, but i will make exceptions in some cases
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Old 01-12-2010, 01:30 PM
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what we now conceive of as 'zombie', including the word, is a modern idea not based on historical predecesors.
So actually you don't like your conception of the idea of Undead. You're not allowing for originality - if the Undead were to be included, do you really think that they'd just have zombies? Despite the name Undead (and zombies) usually referring to generic conceptions, its and umbrella term encompassing significantly varying ideas. It's up to personal preference really whether you like them or not, in which you shouldn't dictate that people who want them should be denied. I don't like Dwarves, and not just for aesthetics. Does that mean I'm telling DoF to steer clear? Of course not.
And how are they different genres?
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  #20  
Old 01-12-2010, 02:06 PM
Pilgrim Pilgrim is offline
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Puppeteer I've seen that threads that go this way are not recoverable, so I'm not gonna return fire here. Just re-read my 2-line original post carefully and if you really find me making the kind of demands you think you are responding to then fair enough.
Its a suggestion forum and it was a short suggestion. I respected the opinions of the people who responded with decently worded disagreements too. If you want to read any more into it then its up to you.
I'm moving on to other threads.
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