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  #1  
Old 04-14-2008, 05:52 PM
Ovocean Ovocean is offline
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Default Diversity to gameplay, to game objectives + Troops prod AI

Greetings,

I'm, all in all, very interested by this game !
Never have I been a great lover of strategy games - especially in multiplayer - for a few but important reasons. These, fortunately, seem to all be destined to be by-passed by DoF.

Just as I was starting to read a first piece of information about the latter, I was dreaming of a strategy game similar to an MMO wich would let me play in LAN, with friends, extensively long games on a huge map, where we would be able to develop kingdoms, extend and fight for territories. The main idea was to avoid the repetitive gameplay of classical RTS on skirmish maps, and have a real evolution of the game environment and style of play over days.
Then I read about the half-MMO mode for DoF and I was delighted. So we go for my first suggestion (rather a request) : Please, oh please, implement the "MMO" mode in LAN games !

Another problem I have with multiplayer RTS games are that I'm unable to manage economics and battles at the same time. When a fight begins, I dive into it, only to discover a few minutes later that all my buildings have stopped production, my fields are out of crop, and I've taken a great backwardness in my progression tree.
But here again, DoF claims it will let us choose to leave the micro management of the stronghold to an AI, yay !
Though... I don't know how far it goes, so here's another suggestion : An activatable (during play) option would let the AI manage production of troops ; the player would first choose among a few build presets, then would go take care of his ennemy easy in he/she's mind, knowing that reinforcement will be ready in time.

The last annoying thing for me is simply that I hate to lose a deathmatch game, watching my beloved city being destroyed piece after piece by a fervent opponent until my last peasant hits the ground yelling. I end up full of hatred towards irl friends, wich I hate. There are solutions to this, playing in coop against computer ennemies is a possibility offered by most current RTS games, and DoF. So that's fine. I've also read about a PvE mode ?
Anyway, what I would really like to see is some variety in game objectives :
- Assault maps where one player has to defend something against the opponent ;
- Maps with economic goals, needing collection of multiple ressources that the players will have to fight for ;
- And other things you can think of that don't require total destruction of the opponents, but encourages interaction between players. And, if possible, that encourages assistance between allies.
- Some excellent board games offer the players the choice between various (but balanced) objectives at the beginning of the game (or even halfway through it), impacting the way to play a lot. That's something I would appreciate to see in an RTS pc game like DoF.

That's it for this first post, I think I would better split my suggestions in multiple topics so other people can comment each...

And... actually I suppose that it's a bit late for you - devs - to implement most suggestions, right ?

Last edited by Ovocean : 04-14-2008 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:14 AM
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Some nice bunch of question there, but to answear one of them there will be some kind of quest in the MMO mode plus event's.
And i gues there will probably be some in battle objectives.
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:30 AM
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Thanks.
And from what I've read, my concern about encouraging support and assistance between allies will be fulfilled by the strong gameplay differences between subraces. Cheers !
Now I just hope that the skirmish mode will not be all devoted to deathmatch.
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:16 PM
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I don't think that'll be the case. There may still be alliances and such in it.
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Old 04-16-2008, 12:40 PM
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Not sure how popular the economic objectives will be, but if any objective map is to be implemented above all else it should be a freebuild mode. Though, actually, thinking about it, is that really such a good thing as this game's fortress building revolves around build plots (for the conventional humans, and elves, at least).
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Old 04-16-2008, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovocean View Post

So we go for my first suggestion (rather a request) : Please, oh please, implement the "MMO" mode in LAN games !
I am 90% sure there will be, having a online muti-player gameplay is most likely way the hell harder to put into a game then a LAN game. which is almost the same thing. the LAN games will most likely come right along side the mutiplayer online games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovocean View Post

Another problem I have with multiplayer RTS games are that I'm unable to manage economics and battles at the same time. When a fight begins, I dive into it, only to discover a few minutes later that all my buildings have stopped production, my fields are out of crop, and I've taken a great backwardness in my progression tree.
But here again, DoF claims it will let us choose to leave the micro management of the stronghold to an AI, yay !
Though... I don't know how far it goes, so here's another suggestion : An activatable (during play) option would let the AI manage production of troops ; the player would first choose among a few build presets, then would go take care of his ennemy easy in he/she's mind, knowing that reinforcement will be ready in time.
I disagree with that concept and hopefuly will never be added to the game.

This is a R.eal T.ime S.trategy game and muti-tasking is what separates the pros from the noobs and is the back bone of the RTS Genre. If you can manage your resources and your army at the exact same time and the other player cant, you will have the upper hand in defeating his army, or defeating his economy. In any other RTS you will see this, and if you don’t, trust me it will get boring very quickly.


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Originally Posted by Ovocean View Post
The last annoying thing for me is simply that I hate to lose a deathmatch game, watching my beloved city being destroyed piece after piece by a fervent opponent until my last peasant hits the ground yelling. I end up full of hatred towards irl friends, wich I hate. There are solutions to this, playing in coop against computer ennemies is a possibility offered by most current RTS games, and DoF. So that's fine. I've also read about a PvE mode ?
Anyway, what I would really like to see is some variety in game objectives :
Losing and Winning is apart of all RTSs, if you don’t lose a few you wont win a few either, so what’s a point of playing a game if you can only win? Your suppose to have a challenge, if you don’t, how would it be fun or even worth playing?
Maybe this is why you haven’t liked RTS games, because you don’t know how to play them inwhich I mean, if you don’t have a challenge for you to defeat and get better, what’s the point? Get what I mean.

Having a 'comp stomp' or co-op, humans vs AI is a most likely yes, not fully sure.


Whats PvE? Player Vs Environment? like creeps? little quests, kill all these human banits and save some slave mine workers?
I think we may have something like that in online.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovocean View Post
- Assault maps where one player has to defend something against the opponent ;
We most likely will have this online, we do already offline in skrimishes.
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Last edited by Joseph Visscher : 04-16-2008 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:58 PM
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I agree with Joseph Visscher's position, but I disagree with his reasoning on this matter. He's right that such a system of automation would not work for Dawn of Fantasy, but he's wrong that it wouldn't work for any game in the genre. If a game was designed with that type of automation in mind, it could be a very fun and competitive game all the same.

RTS games are based on choices. Players must make decisions and execute them within a limited time frame. Players cannot manage absolutely every decision, however. We certainly don't have time to trace out the paths that each individual unit should follow to get between point A and point B, there is a pathing system in place to do that automatically. The player loses a degree of control, but is freed to make his decisions in a more streamlined manner. As a result, most RTS games automate trivial, boring, or non-consequential decision making.

Now, I think that a system that automates the economy as mentioned could work for a different game. In fact, the economic system could be expanded on a much highest scale to require a greater degree of planning and structuring because the AI could be counted upon to deal with the simpler and lower level operations. Or the economic aspect could be simplified dramatically so there is no longer any real intelligence required at that level and game could become far more aggressive with a greater focus on commanding the army while the base was sidelined and mostly AI controlled. There are many ways such a game could be implemented and be both very fun and competitive.

Dawn of Fantasy places a great deal of complexity in the base and how you manage it. If you read the details on the game, you can see there actually is a considerable amount of automation; you don't need to directly control individual workers, enabling you to manage your economy at a level you might not otherwise have been capable of. This automation has enabled DoF to introduce a higher level of economic planning. However, if you take away that higher level of planning, you simplify the intelligent and non-trivial decision making process required from the player. Good automation expands upon the player's decision making, options, and choices. Bad automation cuts them down. Your suggestion in this context falls into the latter category. In a different game it could be the former, but it'd have to be designed for it.
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Last edited by Darvin : 04-17-2008 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 04-17-2008, 01:15 PM
Ovocean Ovocean is offline
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Err, actually all of my arguments applied to the concept of an AI taking care of producing presets of troops. I've really not said much about automation of the economy.

This said, I think I would agree with you. I need more info on what has been done as to "automating" micromanagmt of the economy in DoF. You seem to know more than me on that topic.

Edit : Argh, the discussion is starting to be a little complex, so back to the start: If you want me to play to this game with great pleasure, give me an AI that will help me manage some part of the game. It's my personal taste. It's not fun for me to be inundated with one thousand tasks; I like the Stragety part of the game, so give me time to think about good strategies.
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Last edited by Ovocean : 04-17-2008 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 04-17-2008, 01:34 PM
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There’s already is AI built into the workers of dof for gathering resources, so there won’t be to much micromanagement, for your workers; it should be farley easy, it’s not going to be like tasking your workers on every single tree, they will go to the next nearest tree on their own. Lol.
But it will still be upto you on how many do what, I do not believe we will have AI that will automaticly move lets say 10 workers logging wood to go mine some gold if your running out of gold.
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Last edited by Joseph Visscher : 04-17-2008 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 04-17-2008, 02:19 PM
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What, in your opinion, will DoF focus more on? The military aspect or the economy?
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