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Omen 03-30-2011 01:23 PM

OP Elf speculation
 
After a little bit of reading about the game, I am curious as to how well balanced the "end game" will be.

For instance: I've read from several sources that the elves will have the stonger, although more costly units.

Here's a quote from a DoF fansite that supports the above statement:
"Elven units, both their archers and melee units, are the most powerful units in the game. For example, one non-upgraded Elven Bladestorm unit is the military equivalent of 4+ Human soldiers or 5-6+ Orcs"

Now since each race has a unit limit that seems to be anywher from around 800 to 1000, I will ASSUME that the Elves limit will be closer to 800, men's will be around 900 and Orcs with their cheaper more expendable army will be 1000.

So lets consider (For a moment) perfect conditions for each race's army. Meaning Abundance of resources and time, maxed stronghold upgrades and so forth. Now we pit that army of 800 superior elven warriors against the 900 or so balanced soldiers of men and judging from the above quote, the elven army will win 10/10 times. This is even more pronounced against the 1000 strong orc army.

Believe me, I realise that I am reading way to much into some of the information provided. And there are a million variable's that I am not considering in my above example ( such as unit levels, stronghold defenses, Unit counters, player's skill, mercenaries and so on ) but theoretically the elven army will have an advantage when it comes to war.

As far as economy and being able to have enough resources to even reach the max number of units and replenish those that have been lost, I can only say this. I've read somewhere that you would be able to purchase resources as a microtransaction. So the Abundance of resources might not be so far stretched.

I guess the whole point of this post is to get someone who is in the know to say " Hey! Don't worry, it's not really like that." or " Yeah, theoretically your spot on"

Well thanks for reading, Im on post 3 of 10 for my beta invitation :)

GPS51 03-30-2011 01:34 PM

Well the devs revised the rules on the beta and made it 1 post ;). If you try to go toe to toe with equal level elves as orcs or men and don't have counters for them you will lose. You should be able to outnumber them without much trouble due to unit costs etc. Those numbers don't seem to have a big enough spread. I would assume an orc play should have at least a 30% advantage in units numbers over elves. Also the unit sizes themselves are bigger for orcs. Hope this helps.

swou 03-30-2011 01:40 PM

Congraz on actually posting something useful for your 10 posts, most people just posts stuff like "yea I agree" 10 times on random posts, but I digress.

One of the things that you did not take into mind and should be, is the time it takes for the production of an army. For elves, armies also takes longer to produce than Orcs and Humans, so if you take into account of that, sure Elves may beat Orcs and Humans if the Orcs and Humans do not continue to produce in the back and supply the on going war, however, if the elf army beats the first Orc army, and right behind the fallen Orc army is a bran new army with the same amount of Orcs as the army before, the elves can than be seriously overrun just by the difference of how fast Orc units can show up at your front door. Not sure if you have played Star Craft before, but I think its the easiest way to explain. If you are playing Terran against Zergs, and the Zerg just keeps on ling rushing you, some times better units that takes way too long to create can cost you your whole city and game.

Omen 03-30-2011 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPS51 (Post 47730)
Well the devs revised the rules on the beta and made it 1 post ;). If you try to go toe to toe with equal level elves as orcs or men and don't have counters for them you will lose. You should be able to outnumber them without much trouble due to unit costs etc. Those numbers don't seem to have a big enough spread. I would assume an orc play should have at least a 30% advantage in units numbers over elves. Also the unit sizes themselves are bigger for orcs. Hope this helps.

Thank you for the quick reply GPS51, but you did tell me something that I didn't want to hear :(

I suppose in the overall picture the Dev's will make sure that the game is balanced, so there really is no need for me to worry.

And thanks for letting me know that the post count has been reduced, I've been browsing the forums searching for threads I could input on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swou (Post 47732)
Congraz on actually posting something useful for your 10 posts, most people just posts stuff like "yea I agree" 10 times on random posts, but I digress.

One of the things that you did not take into mind and should be, is the time it takes for the production of an army. For elves, armies also takes longer to produce than Orcs and Humans, so if you take into account of that, sure Elves may beat Orcs and Humans if the Orcs and Humans do not continue to produce in the back and supply the on going war, however, if the elf army beats the first Orc army, and right behind the fallen Orc army is a bran new army with the same amount of Orcs as the army before, the elves can than be seriously overrun just by the difference of how fast Orc units can show up at your front door. Not sure if you have played Star Craft before, but I think its the easiest way to explain. If you are playing Terran against Zergs, and the Zerg just keeps on ling rushing you, some times better units that takes way too long to create can cost you your whole city and game.

Swou, you are correct. I have not even come across a mentioning of production time, let alone account for it. Thank you very much.

I do know of starcraft but I haven't actually played it. I'm actually pretty noob to the whole RTS genre. Only one I can actually remember playing would be one of the Command and Conquers from way back.

I am going to buy Starcraft 2 just to learn some basics and have an idea of what to expect from DoF.

The truth is: I was searching for a different type of game from my usualy cookie cutter MMORPG's, and ran across DoF. Now I'm not just excited for the game itself but also the completely different type of gameplay. Here's to hoping I have the micromanagement skills to keep up with all you guys.

Dang, sorry got way off topic there. I actually think that is a great way to balance powerful units but still I worry. I feel like taking on an evenly matched elven army will be extremely hard, as well as disheartening.

Curst 03-30-2011 07:44 PM

So, let me make it clear: you think that Elves are overpowered because you have read some baseless argument on some fansite? :rolleyes: Let's investigate this matter... I'll post here a comparisson of elite infantry for orcs and elves.


Elven "Grand Masters":--------------| --------------Orcish "Berserkers"|
16 members----------------------------| ------------------------24 members|
546 Health------------------------------| --------------------------545 Health|
20 Defence-----------------------------|---------------------------20 Defence|
------------------------------------------| ----------------------------------------|
Damage absorption:------------------| ------------------Damage absorption|
20 Crushing----------------------------| ---------------------------20 Slashing|
20 Piersing-----------------------------| ---------------------------20 Piersing|
------------------------------------------| -------------------------------20 Fire|
------------------------------------------| ------------------------------50 Cold|
------------------------------------------| ----------------------------------------|
Damage:--------------------------------| ------------------------------Damage:|
160 Slash-------------------------------| ------------------------------90 Slash|
------------------------------------------| -----------------------------60 Crush|
------------------------------------------| -----------------30 Pierce (total 180)|
===============================================|

As I'm sure you can see now, elves aren't all that tough. ;) I may add stats for human elite infantry too, but I assure you it's not helpless as well. :)

(Err... I'm not breaking NDA, am I? :eek: It's an "open" beta, we can speak about the game openly right?)

Alex Walz 03-31-2011 01:07 AM

The sentence you're quoting is something I personally wrote before joining Reverie or ever having played DOF. The game has changed much in the time that has passed, and any dated information must be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it does not come from an official source.

Yes, the Elves kick ass, but you cannot compare races based on individual unit strength. Units are organized into battalions of several units. The Elves have the least number of units in a battalion, while the orcs have the most - so that needs to be accounted for. Also, Elven battalions typically cost more than those of other races. The abundance of resources you brought up is an interesting consideration, but would have minimal effect on balance given restrictions such as the resource cap which would force players to manage their economies efficiently so as to only gather the resources they plan to use, and even at that, abundant resources may or may not be able to take on players with more experiences and units earned through quests or trade.

What it really comes down to is micromanagement and how the player wishes to play the game. For example, the Elves are unique in that they are best in the hands of players who anticipate what they're up against - as Elven formations are designed to be arranged before battle and the race in general caters to more of an organized defensive players. Orcs, on the other hand, can choose formations in the heat of the battle and have the numbers for flexibility, which opens up a vast array of strategic and offensive options.

GPS51 04-01-2011 09:24 AM

I find that when using formations properly my orcs are 50% more effective.. and fast...and deadly... and did I leave anything out?

Omen 04-01-2011 05:11 PM

Thank you all for all this insight, it is greatly appreciated. I'm learning alot more about the game and I'm eagerly awaiting open beta.

edit: by the way, I have just purchased Starcraft 2, I guess it's time to get used to RTS and figure out how to micro manage.

Alex Walz 04-01-2011 05:13 PM

More elf statistics can be found here. :)


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