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Feweh 04-09-2008 05:28 PM

Siege Fears
 
Every game thats a strategy and based in the medieval times always takes a crack at sieges.

Everytime they fail.
Stronghold, stronghold 2 , BFME, BFME2 and so on.
All failed.

Why, because the players are smart enough to completely avoid the siege defences set up.

What do i mean? Well players have come to the conclusion to just attack a sungle wall or corner, this means only one Catapult and defensive wall stands to fire back.

They then knock it down by doing what? Well everyone just masses about 10 catapults, fires at the wall it disapears infantry come outta nowhere without taking any damage at all run in win.

This is a common problem where everyone just masses artilerry and attacks a small area on your castle.

So what measures are being taken to prevent this, because in the video you see the orcs using ladders etc, in a real game i simply see everyone gathering 10 catapults and firing on a wall.


My suggestion? Don't make walls disapear, make them become a bunch of rumble that the enemie slowly has to cross over or jump over, not instantly it just disapears and it's a opening.

Catapults should be used to destroy towers and trebuchets and defensive stuff, not completely getting rid of wall sections.

Konstantin Fomenko 04-09-2008 09:37 PM

Ultimately you`ll be the judge of how well DoF sieges turn out, but I hear you - this was exactly how our designers felt when approaching DoF siege combat. We all played these games for countless months, and siege experience always left a bad feeling, even in games like Stronghold.

Let me address some of your questions (luckily I directly worked with DoF sieges, and this is a topic I am well familiar with)

Our approach to sieges and walls in general: walls are not just a small obstacle in way of one army reaching another, it’s a gameplay field we force players to take.

Quote:

...just attack a single wall or corner, this means only one Catapult and defensive wall stands to fire back.
Won’t work. Yes, it would take few Trebuchets around a minute and a half to bring down a wall. But – the large bunch of rubble a damaged wall is not something your units can get other, and besides - wall mounted Trebuchet would fire back and easily take down all of your 'few' Trebuchets in less than a minute.

Quote:

Don't make walls disapear, make them become a bunch of rumble that the enemie slowly has to cross over or jump over
Exactly the case.. It`s quite easy for catapults to damage the wall, making it impassible by units. You can even take down the tower. But - to get inside your units would have to climb over and open the gate from inside.

Quote:

Well everyone just masses about 10 catapults, fires at the wall it disapears infantry come outta nowhere without taking any damage at all run in win.
In Dawn of Fantasy - you have to scale the walls. You have to build very cheap siege towers and ladders, which can be constructed right by the wall by your simple army units - BUT - you have to climb them and fight enemy units on the walls.

supagu 04-10-2008 12:27 AM

+ if units cant walk on top of each other like in strongholds, you cant just squeeze a whole army through 1 little gap in the wall... congestion kills :D

†TYRANICK†™ 04-10-2008 01:34 AM

@ Konstantin

Those sound like great ideas in prevention spam of sections on walls and stuff, specially the rumble idea and stuff.

But they way you make it sound is that destroying walls is not the way to access the base...you seem to be implying the only way is via gate or something...i would assume surely eventually that if enough punishment was done to the walls, then eventually you could begin to access there base, but meh. Sound pretty cool on what your planning but..you dont want to be indestructable :p

crex719 04-10-2008 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by †TYRANICK†™ (Post 4807)
@ Konstantin

Those sound like great ideas in prevention spam of sections on walls and stuff, specially the rumble idea and stuff.

But they way you make it sound is that destroying walls is not the way to access the base...you seem to be implying the only way is via gate or something...i would assume surely eventually that if enough punishment was done to the walls, then eventually you could begin to access there base, but meh. Sound pretty cool on what your planning but..you dont want to be indestructable :p

I want to be indestructable :p This is some great news here! Truly a revolutionary RTS!

SvN 04-10-2008 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konstantin Fomenko (Post 4801)

Won’t work. Yes, it would take few Trebuchets around a minute and a half to bring down a wall.

I think the catapult should do less damage to walls. In medival sieges, catapults were mostly used to take out towers and fragile wall sections, like a wooden bastion. You cant just make a hole in a massive wall with a stone, that's unrelevant.

Joseph Visscher 04-10-2008 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by †TYRANICK†™ (Post 4807)
@ Konstantin
But they way you make it sound is that destroying walls is not the way to access the base...you seem to be implying the only way is via gate or something...


The Gate is a way to enter a base, but you'll need a good deal of troops and a few good battering rams. most of your enimies army will be around the front gate.
But its not the only way, theres ladders and siege towers, and 'other units' that give access to wall peices, they attach themselves and your units ( or the enemies') can use it as a pathway right up on the walls to hopfuly fight there way along the walls and down the stairs or. to get down into the stronghold..

What strategy im thinking of, is this,
Keep your main army with battering rams hidden infront of the stronghold, then send a small army with a seige tower around to the back side of the stronghold, where less guys would be defending it on the walls.
Quickly attach the siege tower and get this small army on the walls to provide a Distraction behind the stronghold, and hopefuly the enemy would move most or all of his army up and around to the backside of his walls to fight off my small decoy army. then, when his army is occupide with that, i rush the front gate and swarm in!

I'm gona try this stat on Kon when we play, he wont know what hit him!;)

The Witch King of Angmar 04-10-2008 10:05 AM

Sounds good to me. This game really implements strategy in warfare which really appeals to me.

†TYRANICK†™ 04-10-2008 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph Visscher (Post 4811)
The Gate is a way to enter a base, but you'll need a good deal of troops and a few good battering rams. most of your enimies army will be around the front gate.
But its not the only way, theres ladders and siege towers, and 'other units' that give access to wall peices, they attach themselves and your units ( or the enemies') can use it as a pathway right up on the walls to hopfuly fight there way along the walls and down the stairs or. to get down into the stronghold..

What strategy im thinking of, is this,
Keep your main army with battering rams hidden infront of the stronghold, then send a small army with a seige tower around to the back side of the stronghold, where less guys would be defending it on the walls.
Quickly attach the siege tower and get this small army on the walls to provide a Distraction behind the stronghold, and hopefuly the enemy would move most or all of his army up and around to the backside of his walls to fight off my small decoy army. then, when his army is occupide with that, i rush the front gate and swarm in!

I'm gona try this stat on Kon when we play, he wont know what hit him!

Pretty good strategy there...but would be significantly flawed against a professional turtle such as me :P (OK i exaggerate lol chill)

I always make sure, in strategy games, to keep my entire base equally defended and allow a smooth transition of re-enforcements to particular areas (if there under attack) whilst never dispatching ANY of my major forces away from critical points in my base. I always distribute evenly around my base and only move partial portions of my inner defenses to spots under attack or rely them either way.

Of course if i was attacked heavily from all sides then a significant shift of defense would be needed, such as trying to control the more powerful units and take them down first, then lead away weaker units, and keep close eye on the tactical map :D. Then again I would try building walls and small bastions and defenses in choke points of maps, focusing heavily on crippling enemy forces movement around a map or any crucial areas.

Oh and did i forget to mention ambushes? hehe :P

That leads me onto another question.

Will there be any form of stealth or tactical units which have reduced detection from normal units...or maybe blend in with the environment? That would be cool...

+ Back onto siege it self, will there be any of these structures/units talked about in the first two levels dialogue? Such as...boiling oil, tumbling rocks and trenches? Or maybe a mote? Hehe a mote and draw bridge would be sweet :P

+ One thing ive always wanted to see in a game like this...is really high "high ground" pieces of land such as hills/ cliffs/ or even mountains, would be brilliant to build a base on like a mountain peak and have an even greater advantage over you enemies due to them struggling up hill hehe...maybe even environmental effects such as...tumbling rocks or avalanches or some other forms of using the environment to your advantage would be great...hiding units in dense forests, settings traps (maybe a hero ability), all good ideas i reckon =D.

Which reminds me, we gonna see a "cover" system in DOF? Like light or heavy or negative/exposed cover, defensive or offense bonus's and such?

Oh and by the way if your putting in trebuchets...please make them MASSIVE. Very irritating in AOE that they were so small :(. You never got the feeling or sound effects that you really were hurling massive boulders through the air...take "Kingdom of heaven" or "lord of the rings" as good examples to look at...excellent dynamic attention to detail and sound on siege equipment in those films . Specially when they start smashing through the walls X_X...epic!

Would be soooo cool to zoom all the way down to a hero point of view, walk towards a wall and suddenly have a massive explosion in front of you as the rocks and debris go flying everywhere as a ball of rock and fire smashes through your gate or wall =D...now that really would be supreme gameplay! I so hope DOF game effects are similar to that, because it so deserves it :D.

Oh and BTW (night time battles + trebuchets/catapults x flaming boulders of rock = Epic 1337 win! =D)

Puppeteer 04-10-2008 11:16 AM

Will the flying debris damage units in it's path?
Also, are siege engines going to malfunction and misfire? It would be more likely if attacking trebuchets were to collapse, as they were not put up carefully. Mounted catapults would be carefully positioned and should be more accurate...


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