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olauwers
08-21-2007, 01:55 PM
I have a suggestion. It would be rather difficult and time-consuming, but it would kick-ass for the game. How about making all races artificial languages? (Maybe not humans, cause you know, we already have languages)

I think the game could really benefit from actual invented languages.

Darvin
08-21-2007, 02:52 PM
I think "time consuming" is the key issue here. I'd rather have the writers busy on making a good story than on coming up with a mythical language, then rushing the story.

olauwers
08-21-2007, 03:17 PM
Well, obviously, but if they could do both (making a good story and an artificial language), it would be even better. And I hear there are databases which hold lots of artificial languages, made by independant people... Maybe they could check around those?

Darvin
08-21-2007, 03:28 PM
Most of the good/complete ones are proprietary, though. In any case, this is a neat idea, but I don't think it's realistic no matter how you spin it.

ShadowyMoon
10-01-2007, 04:38 AM
Too time consuming and wouldn't do much gameplay/story wise.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 02:36 PM
Too time consuming and wouldn't do much gameplay/story wise.

Expansion pack!

Ryan Zelazny
10-02-2007, 02:49 PM
I'm not certain this would work out as part of an expansion, as the original wouldn't contain it, and it would change the feel of the game. It might throw people off.

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 02:50 PM
Huh? How did they switch languages from English to some never known before stuff for such short time? Wouldn't make sence storywise :p
Ryan posted a split second before me and made my post obsolete. Meh :p

olauwers
10-02-2007, 04:41 PM
You could give the new races in the game an artificial language. Make it one of the bonuses of the dwarves or something. :D They are all well-hidden in their caves and mountains anyway, so it would be realistic for them to have an own language.

That is, of course, if the dwarves are in the expansion :D

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 05:10 PM
i think the lang. should be micmac NOW THAT WOULD BE KICK @$$

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 06:08 PM
i think the lang. should be micmac NOW THAT WOULD BE KICK @$$

I didn't get that Sparrow. It would be somewhat unrealistic if 4 races use one language and the 5th has a different one.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 06:09 PM
LOL im and native and my lang. is micmac

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 06:14 PM
Ehh I'm pretty sure that if there are different languages in the game they will be fictional ones.

Kostia Kaploon
10-03-2007, 07:32 AM
you can make it like some "holy" lenguge so they speek only to the high commanders in it... then you can include both the high commanders and the lang. in the expansion.

if that wont work - why won't we invent one for them? i would love to have a lang. i helped create in a game.. wont u guys?

Kost.

ShadowyMoon
10-03-2007, 12:14 PM
Well that would work. Nice idea Kost.

SPARROW94
10-03-2007, 01:46 PM
High lang. translation 1

Sparrow94-Sharrow96

ShadowyMoon-Spadowynoon

ShadowyMoon
10-03-2007, 01:47 PM
I definetely don't like my translated name :p

SPARROW94
10-03-2007, 01:53 PM
then spideynoon

ShadowyMoon
10-03-2007, 01:59 PM
No comment.... And it's totally unrelated to the topic.

SPARROW94
10-03-2007, 02:00 PM
but still its lang. tranlation and this thread is about lang.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-03-2007, 03:41 PM
but still its lang. tranlation and this thread is about lang.

For the 3rd time................................ scary.

SPARROW94
10-03-2007, 06:06 PM
lol is every thing i do is scary....*twich twich* washroom memorys

Kostia Kaploon
10-05-2007, 11:07 AM
back to subject guys.. so do u guys want to create the lang.?

kost.

ShadowyMoon
10-05-2007, 11:26 AM
I suggest we let Reverie handle it.

Kostia Kaploon
10-05-2007, 12:13 PM
As already said here.. its too time/resource demending for them but if we, the fans, do 90% of the work for them they will probably polish it a bit and put it in the game. so if you guys want that feather that much we should do it. And it should be fun as well.

olauwers
10-05-2007, 12:29 PM
I'm in for it, but remember this will be much of work. Very Much.

ShadowyMoon
10-05-2007, 12:35 PM
Too much work and I don't really see much point in it.

Kostia Kaploon
10-05-2007, 12:46 PM
No "real" benefit besides the game being cool + having a common lenguge with all the game fans.. (isn't it cool talking warcraft-orcish with people who played it.. or some bfme lang.?)

I'm in.. and I defenetly know its a lot of work but if enogh people want to co-op with this we can make someting cool here..

kost.

ShadowyMoon
10-05-2007, 01:07 PM
Well go ahead if you want but count me out. Oh and it's a bit too "geekish" even for me.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-05-2007, 02:10 PM
I'm not in. Reverie already has alot on its hands trying to make a great game and it doesn't need more trying to create some imaginery language.

SPARROW94
10-05-2007, 09:27 PM
i dont mind english

Doug Bonds
10-05-2007, 10:32 PM
I'm in for it, but remember this will be much of work. Very Much.

If anyone could get it started and organised, that would be Oli!!! Just remember, it took Tolkien something like 8 or 9 years to create the Elvish language and he was a linguist.

SPARROW94
10-05-2007, 10:45 PM
wow i did an report on tolkien and i didnt know that...another fact one of tolkiens best friends are the guy who made narnia

Kostia Kaploon
10-06-2007, 04:59 AM
If anyone could get it started and organised, that would be Oli!!! Just remember, it took Tolkien something like 8 or 9 years to create the Elvish language and he was a linguist.

1. i would be happy to do it but so far its just me and another guy.. so unless we are at least 4-5 its not doable.

2. we dont realy need such a full lang for them. orcs for example are preaty simple becouse they are stupid and have a little vocabulary (they talk kind of like that big heary thing on harry potter) and we can make goblins and ogres talk only orcish for now.. (realistick because they are not in their own army.. they may start talking their own lang in the expansion or something)

the elves is the most fun part, even though its the hardest. They have are close enogh to humans (basicaly a little mutate humans with long ears that live in forests)

dragons will need some hard-core creativity becouse i dont think they realy had a lang before..

another bonus for us is we dont have to invant letters/letter simbols because how I see it practicaly going - the units will talk (sound) and be translated (text) so we can fully use english letters.

So will any of you guys reconsider? (btw i think the order above is the one to go)

kost.

SPARROW94
10-06-2007, 09:19 AM
wow thats niceee

Kostia Kaploon
10-06-2007, 09:48 AM
wow thats niceee

what do you mean? it means you are in?

Puppeteer
10-06-2007, 01:49 PM
I'm going to read this thread from the start, originally I thought it was just about going from English-German-French etc.

Puppeteer
10-06-2007, 01:59 PM
ooh well... hmm. maybe the high ranking people speak a specialised language, but the low ones speak common language, ie. english? or Humans speak latin.
cave canem

Kostia Kaploon
10-06-2007, 02:10 PM
ooh well... hmm. maybe the high ranking people speak a specialised language, but the low ones speak common language, ie. english? or Humans speak latin.
cave canem

but what about orcs? elvs? dragons? do THEY speak english? i would better have them speak their own lang.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-06-2007, 02:45 PM
but what about orcs? elvs? dragons? do THEY speak english? i would better have them speak their own lang.

I just don't want to do it because it will take too long.

Kostia Kaploon
10-06-2007, 03:49 PM
I just don't want to do it because it will take too long.

in my opinion there is enogh time for this untill the final stages of dev. + we dont need letters and all that.. all we need is basic grammar, vocabulary and sound.. (did a bit research about it..)

and if we get a good team we can acomplish it quite quick..

i realy want to try it but defenetly not on my own..

kost.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-06-2007, 04:29 PM
in my opinion there is enogh time for this untill the final stages of dev. + we dont need letters and all that.. all we need is basic grammar, vocabulary and sound.. (did a bit research about it..)

and if we get a good team we can acomplish it quite quick..

i realy want to try it but defenetly not on my own..

kost.

That's my basic reasoning.

olauwers
10-06-2007, 05:52 PM
If anyone could get it started and organised, that would be Oli!!!

I'm not sure whether or not that was ironic. Anyhoo, I think I could get some guys from another site to join us if you want, and if the Devs could get us a list of phrases and such that we need to have (i.e.: Text already in campaigns, ...) We could pull this off quite quickly. We don't need a full language right away, just the basics to use for the game. A full language can be developed later to use for the community.

So, if I'm not mistaking, it's just kost and me right now?

Gallivan
10-07-2007, 01:15 AM
http://www.dawnoffantasy.com/popups/script_1.html
http://www.dawnoffantasy.com/popups/script_2.html

They're both found at the Dawn of Fantasy flash website, hopefully they can help your initiative. :)

olauwers
10-07-2007, 06:03 AM
That does help very much indeed. Now, is there anything else we must know? Religions, how they count time, their governmental system, ...? Anything set in stone, or can we go all out?

Kostia Kaploon
10-07-2007, 06:37 AM
I'm not sure whether or not that was ironic. Anyhoo, I think I could get some guys from another site to join us if you want, and if the Devs could get us a list of phrases and such that we need to have (i.e.: Text already in campaigns, ...) We could pull this off quite quickly. We don't need a full language right away, just the basics to use for the game. A full language can be developed later to use for the community.

So, if I'm not mistaking, it's just kost and me right now?

right now yes..

about the lang. i tend to disagree.. we dont need a FULL lang. right now but we need consistant sounds, consistant grammer and a basic vacebulary because if we try to first invent words for specific phrases it will be much much harder and unconsistant if we then base a lang. around it. so i still think we should have those basics first..

and about bringing guys to help out - sure.. y not?

kost.

olauwers
10-07-2007, 06:50 AM
Oh, no, I did not mean in any way that we should not get consistent sounds and words. I merely meant that our language doesn't have to be completely ready to put it in the game. It just needs to be speakable, the finer adjustments, such as more diversity in words, different connotations, ... can be made later, if time doesn't allow us to completely finish it.

I just wanted the phrases to make sure, once we have the basics of the language made, we can start actually translating the campaigns and such.

Kostia Kaploon
10-07-2007, 07:31 AM
Oh, no, I did not mean in any way that we should not get consistent sounds and words. I merely meant that our language doesn't have to be completely ready to put it in the game. It just needs to be speakable, the finer adjustments, such as more diversity in words, different connotations, ... can be made later, if time doesn't allow us to completely finish it.

I just wanted the phrases to make sure, once we have the basics of the language made, we can start actually translating the campaigns and such.

ok then.. thats fine.. so i think we should start with grammer - and since grammer will be the most basic for the orcs (as them being not too bright) we should start there.. (btw i think we should start it as soon as posible and if more ppl want to join they are welcome..)

kost.

olauwers
10-07-2007, 01:27 PM
I do not think the orcs should get much grammar. I think the orcs could use a language where they can vaguely make their ideas clear. And maybe high orcs have a decent language. That'd fit them, since I have the idea that they have a system of unquestionable power when it comes to governmental affairs.

Anyhoo, they should have some sort of groumpf sounds in their language.

Now, grammar.

Verbs.

Their verbs could just be always infinitive, with suffixes to say if it's past, present or future. They have words to point out about who they are talking about. Translated literally to English, that would be (for the verb to be)

I be
You be
He be
We be
You be
They be

And then you add a suffix for past or future, present just is the normal form.

Say we have "Urm" as the verb "to be" in Orcish, then, it would become

Anag Urm
Anan Urm
Anar Urm
Anog Urm
Anon Urm
Anor Urm

(If these words would represent the subject, "An" could be the general idea of "person")

Now, the past could become:

Anag Urm-Bum-Dar

And the future:

Anag Urm-Bum-Dum

"Bum" could be the general idea of "time", "Dar" of "What is behind", "Dum" of "What is ahead"

Of course, all these words are just thought up at the moment, they can change. It's just to give you a general idea how I would do the Orc verbs. If anybody has any other ideas, suggestions, improvements, just post them here.

Oh, and all these words are not written as how they would sound in English, but the way they would be pronounced in Latin, just because that is an easier way to write them down. "O" is pronounced like in "Dog". "A" is a bit more difficult, since the English pronunciation of it is completely different, however, it's the same was as in most West-European languages. "U" is a bit like "oo" in "book".

Kostia Kaploon
10-07-2007, 01:36 PM
good start but i think we could go further than that - they may have pure fact santances:

I big
Battle good but hard

for time they will have those constant time words:

Battle *future* good but hard
You *past* good in battle

and they can have action sentenses too:

I run fast (i am running fast)
You *future* run after me (you will run after me..)

what do u say?

olauwers
10-07-2007, 04:19 PM
Sounds good.

Out of curiosity, in the "Battle good but hard."-sentence, is "Battle" the subject or the verb? (We should try to make such things more clear in the language, by having some sort of suffix or something to indicate verbs/subjects. Otherwise, pure fact sentences are going to cause alot of misunderstanding. But maybe that isn't bad for the orcs. They don't need to be consistent and coherent in what they say all the time, it could show their weakness in intelligence.)

Kostia Kaploon
10-08-2007, 12:07 AM
Sounds good.

Out of curiosity, in the "Battle good but hard."-sentence, is "Battle" the subject or the verb? (We should try to make such things more clear in the language, by having some sort of suffix or something to indicate verbs/subjects. Otherwise, pure fact sentences are going to cause alot of misunderstanding. But maybe that isn't bad for the orcs. They don't need to be consistent and coherent in what they say all the time, it could show their weakness in intelligence.)

You are right.. sorry i missed it..

well verbs will have an "action" suffix -

battle - noun - ormic
(to)battle - verb - ormicma

ex.:
ormicma *future* hard = battle hard! (like saying to someone.. like a battle call)
ormic *future* hard = battle will be hard (like saying to his man to prepare because its gonna be hard)

(of course all words are temporary for now..)

btw i think sentences show look general like this (just trying things about.. feel free to critic)
SubjectTimeObject (fact)-
me *past* little child.
VerbTimeSubject,Object (action)-
run *present* men, the enemy castle.

*present* is the same as leaving it out (run men, the enemy castle) but its more rushing like saying "do it now!!"

any other problems with it?

kost.

olauwers
10-08-2007, 03:37 AM
All sounds good now.

Kostia Kaploon
10-08-2007, 12:36 PM
ok having that covered we have a few more issues we have to aprove and we basicaly have the grammar. Ok here we go:

Person

How to say "you" "we" "they" etc. in orcish..

To make it simple and a bit "dumb"

I decided to use 3 main words with prefixes and sufixes (letters that come before and after a word)

there will be a word for every person for example:

First person - I - mun
Second person - You - kun
Third person - They - dun

To talk about a number of persons instead of one (he vs. they) you simply add a suffix that indicates plural for ex. osh

he - dun
they - dunosh

And finaly a prefix to indicate female gender for ex. mi

they(female) - midunosh

Basicly that summens it up.. next subject:

Numbers

I thought about something simple yet a bit unique here:

i haven't decided yet about it so ill need your help here. The two options i think are the best are:

1) three tens and five
or
2) five and three tens

both of them mean 35 and they are a lot similar.. but there is still a difference.. so what do u prefer?

the full system will go like this:

356: three hundreds and five tens and six (or the other way around)

Questions

That one is pretty straight forward:

YesNo: Sentence + ?
AnyOther: Question word + Sentance + ?

Thats preaty much what i have so far.. Please critic it and find any problems or things you would like to change..

kost.

olauwers
10-08-2007, 12:49 PM
I like the system for persons, but it sounds a bit complicated for Orcs. It'd be great for, say, elves, but I believe Orcs should make it pretty straight-forward and just use different words or something like that. Otherwise their poor little minds will explode under the pressure of all the -fixes. Still, it's a very good idea, we'll have to look deeper into this specific subject, and see what is best.

For the number system, I'd say "three tens and five ones". That shows how they just say it like it is. But, do Orcs count the same way as us humans? Do they use the decimal system? Maybe they count in a different way. Maybe even in terms as "two armies, and half a battalion", and, say, an army has 1000 Orcs and is divided into 10 battalions of 100 Orcs? I think that would give them something special in their counting system.

Questions, I like the system, but it resembles our languages alot. It's gonna be especially difficult because it's mainly a spoken language, and Orcs don't know much about intonation, if you ask me. I would just put a word that means it's a question at the end. Say, the word is Barf:

Battle good barf.

Of course, that is only for the Yes/No-Questions. The question-word questions can stay the same. It basicly just gives Yes/No-questions a question word.

What do you think?

Kostia Kaploon
10-08-2007, 01:28 PM
Ok, after we discused it a bit a few things were changed and decided:

Personal

We decided that what i proposed is too long and it should be 1 sylibal.. we kept the general idea:

We use a "u" as basis for "I", "o" as "you" and "e" as "he", then we add a "d" to indicate plural and and "r" to indicate singular.

so they will be Ru Ro Re Du Do De (or we could change the names themselves afterwardes)

Names

All the orcish leaders/army generals/orcish gods have long names...

when orcs talk to them they have to use the full names..

when they talk among themeselves they use nicknames for the leaders...

the little orcs themselves do not have personal names..



ok got that one.. moving on...

kost.

Puppeteer
10-08-2007, 02:54 PM
Of course, maybe it's like the Sumerians. There is no system of numbers, but simply for example in writing you write the object "x" number of times, ie. 3 fish= fish fish fish. This is simple yet effective. Also, 0 is quite complex for a crude race.

Kostia Kaploon
10-08-2007, 03:08 PM
Of course, maybe it's like the Sumerians. There is no system of numbers, but simply for example in writing you write the object "x" number of times, ie. 3 fish= fish fish fish. This is simple yet effective. Also, 0 is quite complex for a crude race.

i understand the reasoning.. and you can say 0 fish with "no fish"

but there is a problem with that.. what if they want to say that there are a hundred humans up ahead? the game will crash lolz...

but good thinking and keep em ideas flowing..

kost.

olauwers
10-08-2007, 03:25 PM
That is an interesting system. The 100 human problem could be solved by comparing it with something else they know. For example, they say there is an army of humans up ahead. An Orcish army contains 100 people. Thus, there are 100 people up ahead. As long as we find enough comparisons, that system could work.

Joseph Visscher
10-08-2007, 04:16 PM
Honestly I hope to God that dof doesn't make or get a Artificial Language, we need to focus those resources to the gameplay, 3d art, better animations, better sounds etc, etc. somthing like Artificial Language would be near the bottom of the list in my books anyways.

Kostia Kaploon
10-08-2007, 04:21 PM
That is an interesting system. The 100 human problem could be solved by comparing it with something else they know. For example, they say there is an army of humans up ahead. An Orcish army contains 100 people. Thus, there are 100 people up ahead. As long as we find enough comparisons, that system could work.

not all the cases have compirations.. so it wont work for all cases.. and if an orcish army has 20 people then what? you can say 5 times our army.. they dont know calculas.. so if you dont have an exect comperison it doesnt work..

kost.

Andreas Hollandt
10-08-2007, 05:54 PM
Honestly I hope to God that dof doesn't make or get a Artificial Language, we need to focus those resources to the gameplay, 3d art, better animations, better sounds etc, etc. somthing like Artificial Language would be near the bottom of the list in my books anyways.
Yes I wouldn't like to see an artificial language in DoF, too.
But keep going guys, there always is the possibility to include this new language in a mod :)

olauwers
10-09-2007, 10:43 AM
not all the cases have compirations.. so it wont work for all cases.. and if an orcish army has 20 people then what? you can say 5 times our army.. they dont know calculas.. so if you dont have an exect comperison it doesnt work..

kost.

Well, then they'd say army, army, army, army, army.

And as long as you find comparisons for 5, 10, 50, 250, ... you'll be all right ;)

Honestly I hope to God that dof doesn't make or get a Artificial Language, we need to focus those resources to the gameplay, 3d art, better animations, better sounds etc, etc. somthing like Artificial Language would be near the bottom of the list in my books anyways.

That's why DoF isn't spending resources on it ;)

Yes I wouldn't like to see an artificial language in DoF, too.
But keep going guys, there always is the possibility to include this new language in a mod

What exactly do you find the problem with an artificial language? Don't you think it would help realism and authentism of the game? Anyhoo, maybe they could make it an option in the settings menu or something like that.

Andreas Hollandt
10-09-2007, 11:47 AM
That's why DoF isn't spending resources on it ;)

What exactly do you find the problem with an artificial language? Don't you think it would help realism and authentism of the game? Anyhoo, maybe they could make it an option in the settings menu or something like that.
Of course a custom language adds realism. But even though you do all the work creating the language it still requires much time to get it into the game. Dialog texts undergo changes till the final release. So it isn't sufficient to create just the words you need.
As Joseph already said, we really have to concentrate on getting more important things done.
That's why I said keep going and release it as a mod. When the final version is released all dialog texts will be ready for "translation" into the new language.

Puppeteer
10-09-2007, 12:13 PM
Well, maybe just in the form of glyphs/written language. If there was say some document found in the main campaign or inscribed or walls. Or names of Elite troops etc

Kostia Kaploon
10-09-2007, 12:16 PM
Of course a custom language adds realism. But even though you do all the work creating the language it still requires much time to get it into the game. Dialog texts undergo changes till the final release. So it isn't sufficient to create just the words you need.
As Joseph already said, we really have to concentrate on getting more important things done.
That's why I said keep going and release it as a mod. When the final version is released all dialog texts will be ready for "translation" into the new language.

The text should remain in english (so the game is still understandable) and the lang will be done in the voice-overs.. you will do them anyways and prbably not change them a lot.. so its almost the same wok-time..

Andreas Hollandt
10-09-2007, 12:22 PM
Just a side note: what I say is no official statement, just my 2 cents.

olauwers
10-09-2007, 12:31 PM
As Kost said, once you start the voice-overs, you have already made all the dialogues, since it would be foolishness to completely voice-over everything again if you change one or two words. Therefor, it would not matter.

SPARROW94
10-10-2007, 05:17 PM
so in english WASTE OF TIME

The Witch King of Angmar
10-10-2007, 05:49 PM
so in english WASTE OF TIME

Basically yes. On an off note, wouldn't it be cool if someone from the forums (excluding the Reverie people) could do a voice-over for one of the units?

Doug Bonds
10-11-2007, 10:10 PM
I'm not sure whether or not that was ironic. Anyhoo, I think I could get some guys from another site to join us if you want, and if the Devs could get us a list of phrases and such that we need to have (i.e.: Text already in campaigns, ...) We could pull this off quite quickly. We don't need a full language right away, just the basics to use for the game. A full language can be developed later to use for the community.

So, if I'm not mistaking, it's just kost and me right now?

I think the word you were looking for was sarcastic, but I was neither being sarcastic nor ironic, I was dead serious. :)

Hehe, I know this was a very late response to that, but I have been out of town for a few days. But its great to see how much you guys have already accomplished in just a few days. Cool stuff!!

As for Joe's and Andreas' concerns...no worries guys, no money is being allocated for this, it's just a great fan base contribution and I think its cool. :D