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Konstantin Fomenko
08-21-2007, 12:15 PM
Magic system in Dawn of Fantasy. We kept this under wrap for all these years. Now it`s finaly time to shed some light on this. And to be honest - we can use really your feedback.

Before we get into specifics, I am curious to see what you guys can figure out about our system from description of three spells from the Fire school. Here they are. And one question to start it up from my side - do you guys think this is waaay too complex?


Lvl 1. Flare
This spell creates a large bright light which slowly lifts 10 tiles up during 20 seconds, and then explodes in a firework fashion.
Primary Effect: Lights up a huge area at night. Useless day-time. (Ranged units +50% accuracy at night). Reveals area of 40 tiles.
Secondary Effect: Will produce 30+X fire damage in 1 tile where it`s created damaging single units in that tile cast with-in 10 tile radius of Flare`s location.
Counter: Any area-of-effect wind spells.
Side Effect: Both light and dark effects all units. Night time Illumination and map reveal works for everyone as well.
Light: Gives 20%+X morale boost to all (including enemy) units in the area. (Firework-like final explosion)
Dark: Blinds all (including enemy) units in 10+X tile radius for 5+X seconds at night.(Big splash when created)
Strategy: The main purpose is to illuminate a huge area to help archers and better see whats happening, really beneficial for archers. This spell has large variety of side effects though. This basic spell could be useful for blinding enemy army(dark), giving morale boost to your army just before attacking enemy(light) or could be used for doing great damage to a single target. However this is a tricky spell which can come back and bite you.


Lvl 3. Fire Wall
This spell creates a round wall of flame with 5+X tile radius, which is possible to go through but doing so will result in huge 240+X fire damage. Spell remains until canceled or until spellcaster runs out of mana. Spellcaster can`t move or fight while casting this spell.
Primary Effect: This spell can be used defensively as a barrier around your army or city.
Secondary Effect: Can be used offensively to imprison enemy force inside.
Side Effects: Damages friendly units as well. Barrier blocks 30% of incoming missiles (both ways) but these missiles which do go through become flaming missile objects.
Counter: countering area-of-effect spells from water school.
Light: Warmth inside slowly regenerates-heals units at 3+X HP/sec
Dark: Heat insides slowly burns-damages units at 3+X HP/sec
Strategy: Setting up this barrier around a town under siege or to protect your small force from the enemy army, or a perfect way to cut-off enemy army and finish them off with a spell of missiles. Must be careful as flaming arrow side-effect will make this spell extremely positive for ranged units, as normal flaming arrows take 3X reload time to fire.
Notes: No other spell can be cast by Mor during Fire Wall.


Lvl 3. Hell Spikes
Counter Spell. Fire comes out from the earth in small fountains, like spikes. Two spikes at a time. Each spike lasts 2 seconds and burns for 170+X damage in 1 tile. 10+X of these fire-spikes comes out in random places within 5+X tiles radius circle.
Primary Effect: Great mass offensive spell. Only effects units (not buildings)
Secondary Effect: Dispels Water and Earth area-of-effect spells (does not effect unit bound spells)
Side Effects: Damages friendly units as well
Counter: None. This is a counter spell itself.
Light: None
Dark: None
Strategy: Works best if the enemy cant escape – within stronghold walls or after Fire, spell (will dispel Air or Water wall) Also sometimes it make sense to turn this spell against yourself. To dispel Air and Earth area spells, this will deal significant damage to player`s units, but sometimes it`s the worst of two evils.
Notes: Hell Spikes is used to brake area-spells for Air and Earth element.

jap88
08-21-2007, 12:28 PM
Alright, finally some info on the spell system. Sounds like fun. I do see why the "Is it too complex" question was asked as i've never seen spell counters and all these different effects from them. What i'd be worried about is not being to remember what all my spells do and i'd randomly be clicking about until i find the one i want because there are so many effects. Based on this however i'd guess that you achieve higher levels, and consequently spells, through some sort of reasearch. Whether that research will cost resources, or there will be a building in which you assign spellcaster units to research and will take time, or another system, is not determinable at this point however...unless, of course, the devs. care to put an answer to that. However it could also be individual units leveling up to different levels, and each spellcaster is assigend to a certain school of magic when you create them. I do, however, see that the counter spells will play hugely into gameplay. In most games you can't do anything about it, you lose your army, you cast a spell, the enemy loses theirs and everyone rebuilds. Hopefully this will turn spells into as much of an offensive tool as a defensive one.

I'm also interested to know how far the fire wall can stretch. Also how mana is generated. Plenty of options as to the later so i'm not even going to bother listing off all the possiblities. Though, it would be cool if it was like in Black and White where you've got villagers dancing around an altar and that generates it. I don't understand why hell spikes counter water spells though :S

olauwers
08-21-2007, 12:29 PM
Hmmm... I like this. And no, it isn't too difficult, in my opinion.

My views about things:

- You'll work with mana, which will either generate, or has to be gathered.

- You have schools... This can either mean you have to buy different types of wizards fo different types of spells, or send them to school.

- Each spell goes two ways. You can use it as a spell in your advantage (as a defense, for example), or as a spell in the other's disadvantage (as an attack, for example).

Now, I do have one remark.

Light: Warmth inside slowly regenerates-heals units at 3+X HP/sec
Dark: Heat insides slowly burns-damages units at 3+X HP/sec

Doesn't that kinda mean it does 0 damage? Or do you mean by Light and Dark the effects it has in Day/Night?

Konstantin Fomenko
08-21-2007, 12:39 PM
A note towards my question about complexity of our magic system.

Each of 4 schools - fire, earth, air, water has 6 spells, so we have a total of 24 spells in-game. Yes, all of them are complex, but it`s not that many overall, and they are shared between races, and learning curve is at most 6-8 hours (our estimate) to master this sytem.

And note about spellcasters, they are hero like units (for all races), and develop in a simple - RPG fashion.

So we are looking at each player having anywhere from 1 to 3 spellcasters (sure, player can have more, but realistically 3 would be the most we`d typically see). Each spellcaster can learn up to 8 spells, so they`ll either have to concentrate in one of magic schools - and this way they can get to the toughest spells there. Or learn from several magic school at once - making them ultimate magic counter weapons.

We are debating if player`s will be allowed to resurrect their spellcasters (like other heroes)

Konstantin Fomenko
08-21-2007, 12:43 PM
Quote:
Light: Warmth inside slowly regenerates-heals units at 3+X HP/sec
Dark: Heat insides slowly burns-damages units at 3+X HP/sec

Doesn't that kinda mean it does 0 damage? Or do you mean by Light and Dark the effects it has in Day/Night?

Each spellcaster will have an option to develop into either a dark magician or light magician (jedi?:P). This is a choice which player will have to make once their spellcaster is created. Once spellcaster learns his/her 3rd spell player will also have to decide if he wants to specialize in one school or multiple schools, as most spellcasters (not counting Elfs) will only learn up to 8 spells (and each school takes 6). .

jap88
08-21-2007, 12:44 PM
So the Spellcasters learn new spells, that you can choose, from leveling up then?

Konstantin Fomenko
08-21-2007, 12:48 PM
So the Spellcasters learn new spells, that you can choose, from leveling up then?

We are debating if we will include a tech-tree for magic as well. Or force players to research each magic school/spell back at their base. Our magic is quite a powerful force, so we`ll have to find a way to limit player`s access somehow.

olauwers
08-21-2007, 12:51 PM
We are debating if player`s will be allowed to resurrect their spellcasters (like other heroes)

Well, couldn't you make them resurrectable, but only if you can get another magician over there, which will then resurrect the fallen one.

jap88
08-21-2007, 12:52 PM
Or force players to research each magic school/spell back at their base
I'd opt for that personally. And question, how is Mana produced anyway? And is it different for each race?

Darvin
08-21-2007, 01:30 PM
My first note is actually with the accuracy system based on how it's described in the flare spell. I believe it may be better just to keep accuracy benefits with a spell like flare as a footnote, and rather just have lighting levels be the modifier for accuracy. Since flare modifies lighting levels, it would therefor indirectly benefit accuracy. I think that this simplifies the spell in a sense without changing it, by moving the complexity to a more global concept that's still intuitive. Secondly, I do think that it should be the lighting of the targets, not the shooters, that is relevant for accuracy.


My second note is with the "dark" and "light" side effects. The extra effects cause these spells to benefit light, and hurt dark units. The problem I see with that is balancing it for all situations. Obviously the spell is double-edged in dark vs dark, and can benefit your opponent in light vs light. However, in dark vs light both side-effects are benefitting one player. This inherently makes it much stronger in that situation (from the light perspective...), and it must be balanced for that best case scenario. As a result, it may end up being way too weak to be competative in the other situations. This sample principle obviously still applies in reverse to "good for dark, bad for light". It doesn't mean this has to go, there just must be counter-balances to ensure that the spell is still viable in all situations.

Each spellcaster will have an option to develop into either a dark magician or light magician (jedi?:P). This is a choice which player will have to make once their spellcas

I thought each faction could pick to be "dark" or "light", not the spellcasters themselves. That changes matters.
No strike-out option on this forum? :rolleyes:


My final word is on counters: keep them simple. Make them intuitive and standardized. The last thing you want to hear is "I didn't know that spell could stop this...", because there are so many different combinations. I think you should produce a table of elements and how they interact. You haven't exactly stated what a "counter" does (I presume it cancels the spell's effect entirely), but I think that what might be neat is if different types of spells had different effects.

Another point I'd like to make on counters is that often they are "one shot" things. I think it would be interesting if some spells were too strong to be fully countered by a weaker counter-spell. The rules of their interaction would still be the same, but the counter-spell would fizzle out of energy before it finished its job.


You still haven't said how spellcasters learn new spells, or how they improve otherwise with time (presumeably an experience system similar to heroes will exist for them).

I do think it might interesting if spellcasters, in addition to learning spells, could purchase "ranks" in each element, deciding which ones they will be stronger in. A character who specializes in a single element will (obviously) have the strongest spells and the least versitility. To counter-balance the fact that this may favour three heroes each specializing in a different element (don't want to make it that simple) you might also make it so that a spellcaster's rank also makes their spells less vulnerable to counter by that element. For instance, a water/fire elemental caster's fire spells wouldn't be as powerful as a fire specialist's, but they'd be less vulnerable to counter-spell by water. Maybe combine with a few other unique bonuses (earth = tougher spellcasters, for instance) and this could make a fun way to develop spellcasters, in addition to picking their spells.


We are debating if player`s will be allowed to resurrect their spellcasters (like other heroes

The question comes down to how many resources are invested in a spellcaster, and how easy it is to recover from the loss of one. Simply put, if people invest a large amount of resources and lose something, they tend to quit the game. That's just no fun; so if a spellcaster is a long-term resource commitment, it absolutely must come back. Secondly, often in these games the window of opportunity before a high level unit can be replaced is significantly large that an enemy can just win the game. I do not feel that, on its own, the loss of a spellcaster should result in a loss of the game, but if the amount of time it takes to replace it is great enough, that may effectively be the case. Again, that should mean that spellcasters must ressurrect.


Oh, and lastly; no, not too complicated. I think when you get around to using these spells, you'll quickly get a sense for what they do. This would be too complicated if the game had 50 or 60 spells, but 24, this feels about right.

Sharku
08-21-2007, 07:47 PM
No it seems pretty straight forward. It's very interesting how these spells can be used both offensivly and defensivly. As for the resurection of spellcasters i think that should not happen. Make them more valuable and actually give you a bigger insentive to protect them.

SPARROW94
08-22-2007, 01:28 PM
WOW dude im so going to conrcrate on earth and fire kewl SSSOOOOOOO KEWWL

olauwers
08-22-2007, 01:40 PM
Will you be able to summon stone monsters and such with these spells?

SPARROW94
08-22-2007, 01:41 PM
Even Better Just A Whole Stoone Army

Konstantin Fomenko
08-22-2007, 02:33 PM
Will you be able to summon stone monsters and such with these spells?

Earth magic is mostly about summoing creatures and interacting with nature - so yeah.

Darvin
08-22-2007, 05:30 PM
Summoning creatures sounds good, but hopefully we'll see some terra-morphing. I'd love a wall of jagged rock to suddenly burst from the ground ^_^

The Witch King of Angmar
08-22-2007, 06:46 PM
Summoning creatures sounds good, but hopefully we'll see some terra-morphing. I'd love a wall of jagged rock to suddenly burst from the ground ^_^

I'm guessing that would be defensive? Man this magic system sounds amazing. One question though; What are tiles? Are they areas of the map?

Thanks

Darvin
08-22-2007, 07:55 PM
Tiles are probably just a measure of area.

Many spells that appear offensive or defensive often have applications in both regards. For instance, creating a barrier can be used to separate the enemy army. You could potentially (if you got the opportunity) trap enemy pikes on one side of that barrier, and enemy archers on the other, giving your cavalry a free run. In this sense, it's a very offensive spell. Of course, the very same spell could be used by the other team to then protect those archers.

Konstantin Fomenko
08-22-2007, 07:58 PM
What are tiles? Are they areas of the map?

Yeah. Here are two more spells to keep you guys entertained. One from fire school, and one from Air.
And thanks for your feedback with regard to complexity, sounds like we are on a right path. I hope your opinion would not change after you study the following two spells.

Lvl 4. Inner Fire, Buffs units with fire magic increasing their resistance to fire. Effects all units in 25+X radius for 30+X seconds.
Primary Effect: Increases units fire resistance by 350%+X, effects both enemy and allies.
Secondary Effect: Removes Air and Earth negative buffs from units (not area-of-effect)
Counter: Water Magic.
Side Effect: Decreases unit resistance to Water damage by 470%-X. Effects all units. Removes All other positive buffs from units (both enemy and allies)
Light: Units are healed for 15+X/second.
Dark: Unit gains additional 10+X fire damage (no matter the original attack value)
Strategy: This spell may allow your units to pass through Fire Wall spell, or burning forest. It is also be very beneficial while attacking enemy stronghold under heavy flaming-missile fire. It can be used as a great mass healing spell. Dark effect – attack bonus works great for weak units, as it might double or even triple their attack. For stronger units this attack bonus is not that significant.
The tricky part is the side effect which increases water damage sensitivity by 500%. Your units could be now easily destroyed by a simple water spell, but. You could cast this spell on enemy army, when cast a water spell on them to wreck chaos.
This spell also be used to remove negative air and earth buffs from units (not from area), it also removes positive buffs. Sometimes it might be useful to cast this spell to de-buff enemy units.


Lvl 1. Storm wind, Spell generates extremely strong directional wind in a very large area. Direction is ahead of the spellcaster. Spell lasts for 30 + X seconds.
Primary Effect: All missiles which enter the area of the spell in the direction of the wind (+-90 degrees) gain 200%+X in speed, and 5X in impact power. Missiles shot from the opposite direction (+-90 degrees) fall to the ground on release.
Secondary Effect: Slows down/speeds up walking units by 250%+X.
Counter: Area-of-effect earth, water, or fire counter spells. Spell also counters itself
Side Effect: 20%+X chance to knock down 1+X units in effected area per second. Knocked out unit suffers 10 damage.
Light: Puts off all fire in the area. Dispels any are of effect fire-spells.
Dark: Helps fire spread, increases fire effect spread factor by 4X.
Strategy: This spell will turn tide of the battle during siege, or even field battle if a lot of ranged units are envolved. Perfect, cheap counter spell for Light spellcaster, and a great offensive spell if used in combination with fire-arrows or fire magic – for Dark spellcaster. At higher levels this spell becomes a great mass-destruction spell capable of knocking down huge armies.

Darvin
08-22-2007, 08:59 PM
Storm wind sounds great; I'm not paying too much attention to numbers right now, since I'm sure those will change dramatically before the game is done. However, in principle the spell is exactly the kind of thing the game needs.


Because it affects the enemy, inner fire may be incredible overpowered in its current state; it effective quintuples the effectiveness of successive offensive water spells you may cast. The way it's set up, I think this has way more offensive potential than defensive, and may well end up being a liability to have this buff if there is even a drop of water on the battlefield.

Konstantin Fomenko
08-22-2007, 10:22 PM
Good point Darvin. But as you might notice, Inner Fire is a level 4 spell - the strongest spell in the Fire School. We tried to avoid cliché of the strongest spell being blow-all enemy units on the screen-up kind, and went for most potentially lethal, but tricky.

Inner Fire does have the ability to create something similar to Undead Army of BftME, or heal a whole city packed with hundreds of units, and at the same time - as you mentioned it is a devastating offensive spell. But one mistake, and it can obliterate your own army

But, seeing how this is the toughest of the fire spells, it would take player quite some time to get a hold of this capability. Actually let me rephrase it, this spell will be available midgame. But all the stats of this spell will increase exponentially as your spellcaster gains experience. So this spell will only become the ‘army killer/healer’ towards the late game.

And one more thing to keep in mind. Most of our spells act slowly, giving other player time to react and cast a counter spell. We want to see something like this down the road:

-Player 2 got player 1`s army encircled in a Fire Wall and has a hundred archers shooting arrows at him. Player`s 1 army will be dead with-in 20 seconds.
-Now Player 1 casts Inner Fire, and moves his units out of the Fire Wall trap.
-Player 2 then, who saw this coming, casts a simple water spell on Player 1`s units – lets say it`s a frozen rain. Player 1`s army again faces destruction with-in 20 seconds.
-But Player 1 can cast another counter spell to dispel that Frozen Rain.

Hah, hopefully this didn`t sound too confusing. But in a nutshell – such magic duels is one the goal we are aiming for.

Darvin
08-23-2007, 12:38 AM
But in a nutshell – such magic duels is one the goal we are aiming for.

That much was clear from your first post, and I think it could be a very effective form of gameplay.

On the one hand, Inner Fire just seems like a classic component of an "instant death" spell combination. On the other hand, I can imagine if there is no spontaneous spell available to complete that instant death combination, it could still work out as a balanced ability. Certainly this is an extremely dangerous spell, and we'll have to wait to see how it plays out in gameplay.

That said, I'm willing to lay bets that the 470% increased vulnerability to water will need to be toned down. Even if a player has time to counter water spells before they kill him outright, the damage he takes before that could be decisive anyways. If you counter the water spell after five seconds (reasonable reaction time in a chaotic battle), it's still dealt the amount of damage it could have expected in 25 seconds. I haven't played your game, but 25 seconds of exposure to a powerful damaging spell is either lethal or crippling in most games I've played.

Silent_Lamb
08-23-2007, 12:58 AM
With all that's being discussed I wonder how this will turn out in online play.

I know your having a balance system in place, as was mentioned, 2 level 1 n00bs can take on 1 level 2 guy, but how will the wizards and what not work out. I've played games where, a higher level guy usually doesn't have too much trouble dispatching lower level people even if they are working in a combined effort. That's my only concern with the system now that Darvin hasn't mentioned (Or has mentioned but I did not read).

Other than that, what has been worked out seems like a solid method of ensuring sizable magic battles, but will there a way to automate some spells so it doesn't over burden the player while he's trying to fight off units with his regular troops and counter spells at the same time. It may not seem like much, but half the spells in Warcraft 3 I never use because I just feel like I don't have time to switch to my spell caster and still fight effectively.

Darvin
08-23-2007, 01:49 AM
I've played games where, a higher level guy usually doesn't have too much trouble dispatching lower level people even if they are working in a combined effort. That's my only concern with the system now that Darvin hasn't mentioned (Or has mentioned but I did not read).

Actually, I'd disagree with you on this count. If anything, spellcasters in this game seem to parallel heroes in Warcraft III, in that heroes were the only real counter to other heroes. In that game, the advantage of two players starting with two heroes, as opposed to one player starting with one, was such a huge edge that even very experienced players couldn't realistically challenge two reasonably proficient players. We don't know yet enough about how this game plays to see how it will turn out. It's too early to lay judgement on this matter.


Other than that, what has been worked out seems like a solid method of ensuring sizable magic battles, but will there a way to automate some spells so it doesn't over burden the player while he's trying to fight off units with his regular troops and counter spells at the same time. It may not seem like much, but half the spells in Warcraft 3 I never use because I just feel like I don't have time to switch to my spell caster and still fight effectively.

Didn't you know about subgroups in Warcraft III? You could access your spellcasters quickly just by grouping them together (say, putting them all in group 3). When you had group 3 selected, you could just press tab to scroll through all your spellcaster types. If you knew the spell hotkeys, you could get your spellcasting done in two or three seconds.

The problem wasn't that blizzard didn't afford players the tools they needed to manage spellcasters, it's that the feature was only ever described inside the manual ( who reads that thing :rolleyes: ) and in one line of dialog during the tutorial that I think most people never played anyways.

That said, I can understand micromanagement issues becoming big. We don't want this to become something utterly overwhelming. For a lot of people, late game warcraft III became an attack-move nightmare because the battle was going so fast that they couldn't keep up.

olauwers
08-23-2007, 02:52 AM
Actually, I'd disagree with you on this count. If anything, spellcasters in this game seem to parallel heroes in Warcraft III, in that heroes were the only real counter to other heroes. In that game, the advantage of two players starting with two heroes, as opposed to one player starting with one, was such a huge edge that even very experienced players couldn't realistically challenge two reasonably proficient players. We don't know yet enough about how this game plays to see how it will turn out. It's too early to lay judgement on this matter.

Well, seeing as how wizards will actually gain better spells as they level up and gain more experience and all, I think that two wizards that are half as good as the third one, combined, either are just as good, or worse than the third, experienced, magician.

jap88
08-23-2007, 07:39 AM
I'd have to agree with Darvin for toning down the damage taken from water spells for Inner Fire, as he said a sufficient amount of damage is enough to cripple you and have you lose the game. You said that Inner Fire will become the healing spell, well if you had just used it to boost your army, the enemy casted a water spell, then you casted a counter, how are you going to heal your army? Inner Fire so that they just tkae more damage again? 470X just seems like way too much and for being a level 4 spell seems extremely easy to counter. If the enemy has no water spells than that would not be a problem. However a halfway decent player will have a balance so they can counter whatever may come their way, and given the amount of time that Inner Fire lasts water spells could be absolutely devastating and you casting a spell meant to help you could instead cost you the game.

Konstantin Fomenko
08-23-2007, 08:51 AM
470X just seems like way too much and for being a level 4 spell seems extremely easy to counter

While I do have to agree with this, you guys are discounting the light and dark effects of this spell. If a Light magician has cast the spell units get 15+X healing (per second), that is enough to reduce damage from any potential water spell, to almost half. So now we are looking at something like 200X more damage from an ordinary water spell.

And with the dark effect - player will want to cast this on his weakest units, lets say Goblin Warriors, who have (I believe 7 base attack values.) With the use of the Inner fire, their attack becomes 17+x. (this could bring the value to 30 for experienced spellcaster). This is a lethal force, and we need to make sure there is actually a counter for it.

But with that said - all the values you have seen in these spells are temporary and will change dramatically once we get down to balancing things in-game.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-23-2007, 10:18 AM
While I do have to agree with this, you guys are discounting the light and dark effects of this spell. If a Light magician has cast the spell units get 15+X healing (per second), that is enough to reduce damage from any potential water spell, to almost half. So now we are looking at something like 200X more damage from an ordinary water spell.

And with the dark effect - player will want to cast this on his weakest units, lets say Goblin Warriors, who have (I believe 7 base attack values.) With the use of the Inner fire, their attack becomes 17+x. (this could bring the value to 30 for experienced spellcaster). This is a lethal force, and we need to make sure there is actually a counter for it.

But with that said - all the values you have seen in these spells are temporary and will change dramatically once we get down to balancing things in-game.


Yeah balance is needed to me but I love the idea of having "magic fights" in addition to regular warfare. To me that really says DOF right there.

Konstantin Fomenko
08-23-2007, 11:23 AM
Yeah balance is needed to me but I love the idea of having "magic fights" in addition to regular warfare. To me that really says DOF right there.

You should really enjoy level 12 in our single-player campaign then. There is a 5 minute duel between few fully developed spellcasters.:)

Darvin
08-23-2007, 02:55 PM
While I do have to agree with this, you guys are discounting the light and dark effects of this spell. If a Light magician has cast the spell units get 15+X healing (per second), that is enough to reduce damage from any potential water spell, to almost half. So now we are looking at something like 200X more damage from an ordinary water spell.

Your math doesn't work out. If inner fire heals at a rate about half of the base rate of damage of a water spell, then the net should be 4.2 times normal damage. That's still a large sum.

Moreover, I notice that manypeople still haven't caught on to what I'm saying here: the person with the water spells is the same person casting inner fire. He is purposefully giving the enemy the buff in order to increase the power of his water spells. As such, we can probably presume he'll be using the dark version of the spell so they don't heal, and he'll use it in a situation where the damage buff will not be very useful. I would like to point out that my beef here isn't with specific numbers, but rather principles and applications. I'm pointing out that Inner Fire has a serious potential to be used as a multiplier for water spell damage, rather than its intended effect, if you aren't careful.

I do have one question however: if a player casts BOTH the dark and light version of inner fire on the same units (obviously requires two seperate spellcasters) how does that stack?


Anyways, Reverie will be play-testing and tweaking the numbers, and the end result shouldn't have terrible abuses.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-23-2007, 09:13 PM
You should really enjoy level 12 in our single-player campaign then. There is a 5 minute duel between few fully developed spellcasters.:)

Sweet! Is this required to complete the mission?

Darvin
08-23-2007, 09:55 PM
Sweet! Is this required to complete the mission?

I can't imagine it not being.



I do have three questions, however:

1) how are wizards built? how much do they cost?

2) what limitations are there on the number of wizards you may build?

3) how do wizards improve / learn new spells? How many spells can we expect a wizard to know?

SPARROW94
08-24-2007, 05:01 AM
yeah i know about the limitations some one said theres only about 2 for each faction

Sharku
08-24-2007, 05:43 AM
Will spellcasters be able to survive a small hand-to-hand skirmish or are they that easy to cut down?

olauwers
08-24-2007, 07:18 AM
I thought he said 6-8 was a maximum of spells, except for elfs, who can get more...

SPARROW94
08-24-2007, 09:39 AM
i hope orcs

The Witch King of Angmar
08-24-2007, 09:57 AM
i hope orcs

I'd think they would get less spells instead of more.

SPARROW94
08-24-2007, 09:58 AM
LOL every one is racist agaisnt orcs...lol dude when this games comes out im going to challenge you

Ryan Zelazny
08-24-2007, 10:00 AM
LOL every one is racist agaisnt orcs...lol dude when this games comes out im going to challenge you

Well Orcs are the big dumb brutes of the universe. Their magic repitoire is going to be rather limited, as they excel mostly at smashing things, not speaking incantations.

SPARROW94
08-24-2007, 10:01 AM
oh blah blah blah ill challenge you to ryan

olauwers
08-24-2007, 02:08 PM
Challenges are always fun! Orcs are ugly :D Th3y sp34k l33t!

jap88
08-24-2007, 05:10 PM
lol, oli. (reminds me of someone :D)

Never been an orc fan myself.

SPARROW94
08-24-2007, 07:57 PM
lol, oli. (reminds me of someone :D)

Never been an orc fan myself.
u guys are so racist and mean lol

Silent_Lamb
09-02-2007, 03:01 AM
I can't imagine it not being.



I do have three questions, however:

1) how are wizards built? how much do they cost?

2) what limitations are there on the number of wizards you may build?

3) how do wizards improve / learn new spells? How many spells can we expect a wizard to know?

I would also like to know this.

Seb
09-03-2007, 08:41 AM
I know this might be later in the thread how ever this is pertaining to the first page... I think the magic system should be fairly complex or as complex as you guys have made

I see it as the more complexity and detail put into the magic the More interesting it is:)

other than

that you guys have done an excellent job

I look forward to when this finally comes out :D 10/10 for everything I've read about this game so far

SPARROW94
09-03-2007, 09:08 AM
Why complex??? i want just plain forward

The Witch King of Angmar
09-03-2007, 10:35 AM
Why complex??? i want just plain forward

He means the magic system and how it is set up. Not the description of it.

SPARROW94
09-04-2007, 02:44 PM
OH...i still want straight forward

Ryan Zelazny
09-05-2007, 10:48 AM
I can't imagine it not being.



I do have three questions, however:

1) how are wizards built? how much do they cost?

2) what limitations are there on the number of wizards you may build?

3) how do wizards improve / learn new spells? How many spells can we expect a wizard to know?


Sorry guys, I didn't notice this until it was reposted.

1) Wizards are trained in a building like every other unit, however this building is solely for spellcasters. The cost for the unit is quite high, but the exact figure isn't set in stone.

2) Resources and time basically, we might impose a limit on them for longer games like in the MMO, because theoretically with enough time someone could just build an army of archmages and just wreak havoc with you right off the bat.

3) Wizards must research spells, research takes a long time and requires you to choose the type of magic your Wizard specializes in, or spells he knows. Each wizard is expected to learn between 6-8 spells each.
3)

Darvin
09-05-2007, 11:26 AM
So they're a huge time and resource investment, but have no special costs or requirements. I presume the wizard structure will also be a very expensive facility to build. One way to limit wizards that you may consider would be to limit them via their home structure. Each structure can support only so many wizards, and then the structure can be limited rather than the unit. It is usually much easier to limit structures than units in a manner that doesn't feel artificial.

As well, with such as a system as described here, I think that ressurrection of wizards is an absolute must. With such a steep investment involved in the "raising" of a wizard, losing one will probably be too severe of a loss to realistically recover from.

olauwers
09-05-2007, 11:43 AM
2) Resources and time basically, we might impose a limit on them for longer games like in the MMO, because theoretically with enough time someone could just build an army of archmages and just wreak havoc with you right off the bat.

Now that, would be awesomeness.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-05-2007, 02:23 PM
As well, with such as a system as described here, I think that ressurrection of wizards is an absolute must. With such a steep investment involved in the "raising" of a wizard, losing one will probably be too severe of a loss to realistically recover from.

It could be like a reduced price but as they rank up it would be longer and more expensive to revive them.

Darvin
09-05-2007, 05:59 PM
The bottom line is that being able to restore a critical unit in 2 minutes with a lump sum investment rather than 5 minutes of continuous effort simply doesn't have a price tag; it's invaluable.

Puppeteer
09-13-2007, 01:36 PM
Can I ask what are the specialisations of each school of magic? You told us Earth is more about summoning, but what would the others be?

jap88
09-13-2007, 02:26 PM
I'm thinking fire is about direct damage...

The Witch King of Angmar
09-13-2007, 02:57 PM
I'm thinking fire is about direct damage...

And water/ice more defensive.

Puppeteer
09-14-2007, 02:42 PM
Darn left out most important one :)

SPARROW94
09-18-2007, 05:16 PM
what kind of important one

The Witch King of Angmar
09-19-2007, 01:26 PM
wtf what kind of important one

Turning people into puppets and controling them of course! :)

Puppeteer
09-20-2007, 02:49 PM
Apart from that, Air ;)
I wonder will there be any necromancy of the sort?

The Witch King of Angmar
09-20-2007, 03:51 PM
Apart from that, Air ;)
I wonder will there be any necromancy of the sort?

Probably. Darvin metioned something about it. I think the catergory should just be called Death or Disease. That would be cool if while your sieging you could throw dead corpses or something like that to get the people sick or something like that.

Puppeteer
09-21-2007, 01:10 PM
Throwing dead cows was a catapult/trebuchet function where you spread the plagues. But what I meant by Necromancy would be like having units fight on after death for, say, 5 seconds. Or re-animating dead bodies on a timer.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-21-2007, 01:35 PM
Throwing dead cows was a catapult/trebuchet function where you spread the plagues. But what I meant by Necromancy would be like having units fight on after death for, say, 5 seconds. Or re-animating dead bodies on a timer.

Cool. Maybe they could add that feature. I'd give them 30 seconds. It could be a high level attack.

Ryan Zelazny
09-24-2007, 12:02 AM
Apart from that, Air ;)
I wonder will there be any necromancy of the sort?

There will not be Necromancy included in the main game. Originally when the game was called Elements, we did have a Life element planned that would allow necromancy, however we are leaving it out for now and may include it later if we add an Undead race for an expansion.

Darvin
09-24-2007, 12:33 AM
You will, of course, have scripting support to manipulate corpses, which will allow for the creation of necromancy spells, won't you?

Hoenir
09-24-2007, 04:00 AM
The problem is the engine has to support this.
But I think you could circumvent the problem by creating a new unit and removing the corpse rather than really resurrecting the dead unit.
So I'd say yes.

Darvin
09-24-2007, 11:15 AM
That's exactly what I'm thinking, although without some method of manipulating corpses in the scripting system it can't be done. So long as corpse manipulation is possible, you can make necromancy spells.

So long as the developers are thinking along those lines when creating the scripting system, things should work out beautifully for mappers.

Ryan Zelazny
09-24-2007, 12:24 PM
Through some method of modding, you should be able to really do whatever you like. If it's modifying source code, or scripting in the editor. I'm not sure how in depth the scripting in the editor is, as I personally don't use it, but I will find out what I can and let you guys know.

olauwers
09-24-2007, 12:27 PM
If it's modifying source code

We can actually mod the source code? Awesomeness!

iceblast
09-24-2007, 12:39 PM
wicked this magic system owns

Andreas Hollandt
09-25-2007, 06:53 AM
We can actually mod the source code? Awesomeness!
No way :) You can only edit the scripts. But there should be enough doable with them.

olauwers
09-25-2007, 09:33 AM
That does sound more realistic, but Ryan said source code, so yah... :D

Gallivan
09-25-2007, 11:19 AM
Allowing anyone to modify engine source code is a definite no-no, since this is basically giving away an engine you've worked for years to develop. And who knows, maybe there are some stipulations about developing for XBox 360 and creating open source...

If I were to bet though, we'll probably have more than a handful with the scripting system alone. :)

olauwers
09-25-2007, 12:01 PM
Besides, if we want extra things added to the source code, we could try blinking prettyly to the devs, now couldn't we? ;) :D :p

The Witch King of Angmar
09-25-2007, 02:57 PM
Allowing anyone to modify engine source code is a definite no-no, since this is basically giving away an engine you've worked for years to develop. And who knows, maybe there are some stipulations about developing for XBox 360 and creating open source...

If I were to bet though, we'll probably have more than a handful with the scripting system alone. :)

Yeah DoF is really going to have alot of alot of options for scripting.

Darvin
09-25-2007, 09:37 PM
The vast majority of you don't have the expertise to even consider source code modification even if you had access to it. I'd only consider source code modification of downright ancient games that are relatively simple by comparison. It takes a degree of dedication and experience to be able to understand what's going on in source code, and then make appropriate changes. Scripting is definitely a much easier medium to work with that is often capable of doing much of the same stuff anyways.

Bottom line is that I'd take a robust scripting system over source code modification any day.

Andreas Hollandt
09-25-2007, 11:36 PM
Besides, if we want extra things added to the source code, we could try blinking prettyly to the devs, now couldn't we? ;) :D :p
Surely you can try. We are always open to suggestions ;)
Scripting is definitely a much easier medium to work with that is often capable of doing much of the same stuff anyways.
Naturally scripting is limited by the set of functions and stuff the engine provides. But of course everything is done to make the system as powerful as possible.

Puppeteer
09-26-2007, 12:08 PM
An undead faction would be awesome! Unit ideas would be vast, from traditional vampires and skeleton legions to the unique Liche Lords and Night Sorceress. Necromancis powers would be amazing too.

olauwers
09-26-2007, 12:15 PM
I'd rather see a dwarf faction, as I think they've been surpressed in games long enough.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-26-2007, 01:23 PM
I'd rather see a dwarf faction, as I think they've been surpressed in games long enough.

Yeah that would own.

Darvin
09-26-2007, 01:29 PM
Just so long as we don't have giant mummified spiders as the primary support unit of the undead faction, I'm happy.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-27-2007, 10:33 AM
Just so long as we don't have giant mummified spiders as the primary support unit of the undead faction, I'm happy.

Lol spider riders. :p

Micah Hymer
09-28-2007, 09:21 AM
Originally Dwarfs and Undead were going to be playable races in Dawn of Fantasy but due to time and resources- first the undead was cut follow by the Dwarfs.

I, in particular, hated to see the Dwarfs get cut but the other races kept in the game were more anticipated. Ideally, future expansion packs will feature these additional races.

olauwers
09-28-2007, 10:56 AM
Dwarfs would probably have been a better option than any of the factions in right now. That's just my thought.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-28-2007, 01:40 PM
Dwarfs would probably have been a better option than any of the factions in right now. That's just my thought.

Same. Undead doesn't seem to have many options to me.

olauwers
09-28-2007, 02:24 PM
I would've kept man for the expansion, and set the vanilla game up with dragon, dwarf, orc, elf.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-28-2007, 07:15 PM
I would've kept man for the expansion, and set the vanilla game up with dragon, dwarf, orc, elf.

I like man being in there. I think 6 factions would've been nice.

Andreas Hollandt
09-29-2007, 03:56 AM
I think it's better to have only a few races, but in return a very well balanced gameplay.

olauwers
09-29-2007, 05:28 AM
I think it's better to have only a few races, but in return a very well balanced gameplay.

I feel the same. But I don't know if it was the best choice of races you guys picked out. I also heard about minotaurs being a maybe-race... I think it would've been better to have Dragon, Dwarf, Minotaur and Orc (or Elf)...

But then again, you can't please everybody completely, and I do see how the ones in right now are more generally wanted by the public, and so I think you made a wise choice. And, hey, we'll just hang out till the expansion pack arrives! :D

Joseph Visscher
09-29-2007, 10:03 AM
I agree with Andreas, I think this game should only have 3 sides really. Elves, Men, and Orcs with Goblins, Dragons, orges trolls etc etc. the heroes for the orcs could be like 3 types of dragons, and several types of drake hordes, im sure you guys know what drakes look like, they could be elite warrior heroes for the orcs.

I think it would be easier to balance the game that way, look at bfme2 balance issues compared to company of heroes balance issues. Company of heroes has a massive amount of different units for each side from tanks to infantry; bfme2 only has a few... Swordsman, pike, archer, horses, and then heroes, why not have like 5 more other units that counter other ones for each side.?
Why not have diversity over a few factions rather then lack of balance and diversity among many and or all factions.
Just my two cents.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-29-2007, 10:39 AM
I agree with Andreas, I think this game should only have 3 sides really. Elves, Men, and Orcs with Goblins, Dragons, orges trolls etc etc. the heroes for the orcs could be like 3 types of dragons, and several types of drake hordes, im sure you guys know what drakes look like, they could be elite warrior heroes for the orcs.

I think it would be easier to balance the game that way, look at bfme2 balance issues compared to company of heroes balance issues. Company of heroes has a massive amount of different units for each side from tanks to infantry; bfme2 only has a few... Swordsman, pike, archer, horses, and then heroes, why not have like 5 more other units that counter other ones for each side.?
Why not have diversity over a few factions rather then lack of balance and diversity among many and or all factions.
Just my two cents.

Personally I like 4 factions. I would have put dwarves in instead of dragons though.

olauwers
09-29-2007, 10:46 AM
Oh no, you can't merge the orcs and the dragons. Dragons aren't per se evil, orcs are. No, no, no, it's great that they separated them. I personally like 4 factions, but if you'd insist on making only three, I think it should be Dragon, Dwarf and Orc. Men and Elf are over-used in all kinds of games already.

Darvin
09-29-2007, 11:06 AM
I tend to agree that fewer races and more variety in each race is generally better. However, if you are capable of making each play in a distinct manner, then more factions certainly isn't a bad thing. Balance becomes tougher, but by no means impossible to achieve.

Joseph Visscher
09-29-2007, 02:05 PM
I tend to agree that fewer races and more variety in each race is generally better. However, if you are capable of making each play in a distinct manner, then more factions certainly isn't a bad thing. Balance becomes tougher, but by no means impossible to achieve.

True but everyone wants a weell balanced game RIGHT NOW when the game is released, anyways I highly doubt we will remove or add or mix any of the factions anyway, looks like its gona be human, elf, orc, and dragon. but surely later on you will see mods with dwaves and what ever else you can think of :o

The Witch King of Angmar
09-29-2007, 03:46 PM
True but everyone wants a weell balanced game RIGHT NOW when the game is released, anyways I highly doubt we will remove or add or mix any of the factions anyway, looks like its gona be human, elf, orc, and dragon. but surely later on you will see mods with dwaves and what ever else you can think of :o

Hopefully the expansion will add all these. Balance is key though, if it is done right, can be a really good game.

Puppeteer
09-30-2007, 10:37 AM
I personally would have thought Men, Elves, Undead and Beasts. Beasts could incorporate a wide range of units from Orcs and Goblin Shamans to Minotaurs and Dragons. Men would perhaps have less units, but the units they had would be better and the fortifications/defences would beat all. Elves would be more to do with Nature, Magic and Infantry. Undead would be a wide range of anything, well, undead. I'm sick of dwarves, and they seem a bit to generic and unneccessary. Just my thoughts.

Darvin
09-30-2007, 12:06 PM
The dwarves of BFME2 were generic and unnecessary, that doesn't mean the whole idea of dwarves is. They're actually an underused race in most fantasy setting games, usually filling some auxiliary role for a dominant faction.

As for using "beast" instead of "orc", I think that's unnecessary. Very often in these sort of games, one race is considered the dominant one in a faction comprised of many races. The orcs of warcraft III had 7 orc-based units, but also had 4 troll-based units and 3 minotaur-based units. The faction as a whole is a combination of many different races, but orcs supposedly form the majority.

ShadowyMoon
09-30-2007, 02:21 PM
Back on topic I do have one concern about the DoF magic system. If players have some reaction time to counter spells and almost every spell counters something than what if there's a duel between a bunch of high level mages on each side? Would it just become mass countering? :confused:

olauwers
09-30-2007, 03:25 PM
Think Saruman - Gandalf in LotR, methinks.

Darvin
09-30-2007, 04:39 PM
The key to any system is to have sufficient complexity. One such way to do so would be to limit the amount of spellcasting you can do in short succession, thus being able to use the fewest amount of spells possible to maximum effect would give you an advantage. Yes, the opponent can keep countering, but if you're using fewer spells for the same effect you can counter much more quickly. That said, I do see a definite issue where if you're even slightly out-gunned in terms of wizards you could have a serious problem.

As for reaction time, that's always a case in any game, and certainly even more critical if the spells are instant effect rather than long-term effect. When the undead race can hit you for nearly 1k damage in a single barrage of instant effect spells, you have to be VERY quick with your counter-measures to survive.

jap88
09-30-2007, 06:11 PM
I believe casting will be limited by the mana that you have if i recall correctly.

ShadowyMoon
10-01-2007, 04:47 AM
I'm concerned that high level wizards would have too much mana and that might cause such mass counter duels.

olauwers
10-01-2007, 09:32 AM
How would you get such high-leveld wizards? By the time you get there, you already won or lost. Besides, I think it's cool to have an all-out mage battle.

ShadowyMoon
10-01-2007, 10:24 AM
In the MMO section of the game you can get them at the start of a battle.

olauwers
10-01-2007, 11:27 AM
No. It takes a long while to train them, you know ;)

Darvin
10-01-2007, 12:35 PM
Games can go on for a significant length of time, and the mechanics cannot be allowed to break down because of these things. High level wizards might not be an every-day thing, but the game should certainly accommodate them.

ShadowyMoon
10-01-2007, 12:42 PM
I think long cooldowns of spells should be sufficent to fix that.
EDIT: olauwers I ment that later in the MMO part of the game when you're higher level and have had wizards for quite a while you will get them with your army at the start of a battle.

olauwers
10-01-2007, 03:05 PM
olauwers I ment that later in the MMO part of the game when you're higher level and have had wizards for quite a while you will get them with your army at the start of a battle.

Well, if you are of such a high level, the enemy will have wizards to counter too ;)

ShadowyMoon
10-01-2007, 03:32 PM
Well, if you are of such a high level, the enemy will have wizards to counter too ;)

Exactly my point. It will just turn to a "Who can counter faster" war.

olauwers
10-02-2007, 09:45 AM
That will happen untill you killed your opponent's wizard, yes. You must not forget that even if a spell does huge damage, it will only hit a part of your army, as you will have vast armies. You can attack the mor with a squad of, let's say, archers not in his range.

Darvin
10-02-2007, 10:13 AM
"Who can counter faster" may not exactly be a trivial point. With cooldown and mana limitations, simply casting a counter to every spell the opponent casts may drain you and leave you vulnerable. Conversely, many of these spells are double-edged, so you may find a way to make an enemy's spell work against him.

Ryan Zelazny
10-02-2007, 11:06 AM
Thank you Darvin for your point.

Mana is almost like a resource in DoF, there is only so much of it on a map, it isn't dispersed per unit, but is a collective thing for your entire army. Sorcerors must gather mana to use their spells, and with a limited amount you wont be able to just cast back and forth until someone dies, you wont know how much mana your opponent has accumulated as it is never a set number.

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 11:21 AM
Thank's for clearing that up Ryan. Interesting aproach to the problem.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 01:21 PM
Thank you Darvin for your point.

Mana is almost like a resource in DoF, there is only so much of it on a map, it isn't dispersed per unit, but is a collective thing for your entire army. Sorcerors must gather mana to use their spells, and with a limited amount you wont be able to just cast back and forth until someone dies, you wont know how much mana your opponent has accumulated as it is never a set number.

Once it runs out though what will wizards/mages do?

Thanks

Ryan Zelazny
10-02-2007, 01:47 PM
I said it's -like- a resource, resources do not come back, however mana will regnerate over time after it's been used. Meaning if all the mana has been collected, but no spells have been cast, no more mana will come, you will have to wait until it's cast and then there will be a regen time before you can absorb it again.

Darvin
10-02-2007, 03:53 PM
That actually calms my fears quite a bit about needing to match the enemy's spellcaster numbers. With such super-units as spellcasters (or heroes for that matter), you need either an exponential dropoff in effectiveness as their numbers increase or a hard limit to those numbers. As these spellcasters do not have a hard limit, I'm pleased to see that the mechanics of mana will effectively give an exponential dropoff.

I suppose that might not make sense to everyone. Suppose you have zero spellcasters; you cannot use mana at all. Clearly it will massively improve your tactical position if you add a spellcaster to your army. Adding a second spellcaster to your army will better allow you to use that mana, but it can't be said to have the same impact as the first (it's still a benefit, but clearly not of the same magnitude). The third spellcaster, likewise, will have to share the mana of the first two, so the benefit of adding a third is less than the benefit of adding a second. As you continue to add more, the restrictions of mana will make each spellcaster less and less beneficial, until it's completely pointless to build them. This is what I mean by exponential dropoff. Each spellcaster you add to your army matters less than the last one, and at a certain point there's no reason to build anymore. This gives a practical limitation on the unit.

Hope that made sense to everyone.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 03:59 PM
I think this game will REALY stand from the rest LKE realy STAND..

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 05:54 PM
So you can spend it all at once or conserve it over time. Good point.

Puppeteer
04-27-2008, 11:29 AM
Going to revive this so maybe it will prompt Reverie to release screenshots of/ some more information on the aspect I'm most looking forward to!
We are debating if we will include a tech-tree for magic as well. Or force players to research each magic school/spell back at their base. Our magic is quite a powerful force, so we`ll have to find a way to limit player`s access somehow.

What I would like though, is either in the form of a small poster in the manual or just a page dedicated to it is a tech-tree of all the spells, how they crosslink with other spells and schools of magic. That would be nice and intuitive, and make people appreciate how much effort has gone into a complex but innovative system!

Diggz
04-27-2008, 02:18 PM
Im wondering how the countering works, do you have to aim your counter directly over the spell you are countering (hell spikes for example) or can you just hit any area of the spell?

E.g. if you don't encompass the entire area of effect of the spell with your counter will the entire spell be neutralized or will only the parts you countered be neutralized?

and for the issue of the number of magic users, why not just allow all you can buy, but they wont be ressurectable and/or weak.

That, or you have a few powerful spellcasters as said before limited by the building.

And for heroes, I'd love to see a mage hero who is like any other spellcaster, but contributes more mana to the pool, is a tad stronger, maybe has a ranged attack, and can be ressurected! :)

The Witch King of Angmar
04-27-2008, 02:19 PM
I'd say elves would have that hero if any army would.

Diggz
04-27-2008, 02:39 PM
Sorry for a second post but i have another suggestion...

Since there are only 24 spells, and multiple spellcasters, why not have a specific area on your interface, along the left hand side for example, with buttons to shortcut to your spells you already know.

After clicking the button, a ring would show indicating the area your spellcasters can cast upon, if they only have a limited range, and if you target outside the ring, the nearest caster will move to cast on that locale.


P.S. Still rootin for that hero! :)

EDIT: Maybe we could have it so that if your mage is in range of a spell he can counter, he will automatically cast the countering spell.

Tynesider
04-27-2008, 04:04 PM
I like the Idea of magic In game where If used wisely and at the right time It can sway the battle; In that way It Is true to the genre as In strategic.
From the Information revealed It looks for the most part that It will be that way; ie using magic to aid the troops In their task or defending the troops while they attempt to complete their task but the biggest focus being on the troops.
My greatest fear Is that It would be used as a means of one on one duel and so less strategic and more reaction.
I am curious If wizards can group up for a cumulative effect.

Diggz
04-27-2008, 04:43 PM
Yeah, i talked about cumulative effects in some other post :)

Tynesider
04-27-2008, 04:46 PM
Yeah, i talked about cumulative effects in some other post :)

could you tell me which post please.

Thanks

The Witch King of Angmar
04-27-2008, 06:45 PM
I don't think they will because it all depends on how much mana will be in that location. There will not just be hero/wizard battles.

Tynesider
04-28-2008, 01:07 PM
I don't think they will because it all depends on how much mana will be in that location. There will not just be hero/wizard battles.

Yes I read that post I got the Impression you could turn up with mana but then collect used mana after cool down period.
I'm pleased there won't be any dueling; I'm an old fart and my reaction time Isn't fast enough.