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View Full Version : MMORTS mode or standard, preference?


Josh Warner
09-12-2009, 08:52 PM
There's been a lack of things to discuss since beta hasn't started, and I thought this would provide an interesting topic.

MMORTS, Standard, Both. Which are you most looking forward to? For me it's MMORTS. I made the poll public since it's not asking anything private and it makes it easier to see what people think since not everyone will actually reply.

I love the concept, but so far it's pretty much dominated by horrible browser games so I can't wait to see what rev does with MMORTS. The only decent title before this would have to be End War, which honestly I couldn't stand. I felt it was a poorly done rock paper scissors with faulty controls.

sneaky_squirrel
09-12-2009, 09:12 PM
Both equally:

MMORTS:
Finally I cna mage my people and watch them die and suffer pleading for mercy and cry and feel sorry for them as I steal their goodies...it's gonna be fun making alliences, adventures and trade ;p.

Plus I can't wait to make quests where you have to set up a small camp and defeat the evil Ogre that stole the village princess and return her to her father, etc. (Would be cool if quests could have a limit on how many men you can bring, so you could make RPG type quests).

Skirmish:
The crazy and unique scenarios XD.

Josh Warner
09-12-2009, 09:27 PM
Both equally:

MMORTS:
Finally I cna mage my people and watch them die and suffer pleading for mercy and cry and feel sorry for them as I steal their goodies...it's gonna be fun making alliences, adventures and trade ;p.

Plus I can't wait to make quests where you have to set up a small camp and defeat the evil Ogre that stole the village princess and return her to her father, etc. (Would be cool if quests could have a limit on how many men you can bring, so you could make RPG type quests).

Skirmish:
The crazy and unique scenarios XD.

They've said you can nearly do anything, if their editor is as versatile as they make it sound, that'd be possible. The question is will MMORTS mode be flexible in what type of scenarios can be added to it so it's not limited to just the standard game, be it through game alterting maps, or just little things like the very small limit on army size to encourage RPG style tactics/micro.

Oh and one question for you or anyone else, I feel like I'm adding mostly if not always constructive posts, but I wonder if it might be misconstrued as spamming. I certainly wish there were a few more active people on the forums, I know there will be plenty whenever beta starts though.

sneaky_squirrel
09-12-2009, 09:40 PM
Until then, cheers, Devs should be glad we give them conversations from fans of their game to read ;p.

Must...wait...for...aplications time.

szebus
09-13-2009, 12:43 AM
MMORTS mode is the vote.

Darathor
09-13-2009, 07:22 AM
I would prefer MMORTS mode to skirmishes, I don't really like playing single maps against generally random people who I don't know. In MMORTS mode, I will be able to scout out that person in advance and then attack him, knowing more about him. And MMORTS promises to have more features that intrigue me such as the trade carts and trading in npc cities.

Josh Warner
09-13-2009, 08:13 AM
Do note the best of standard is a bit misleading, standard also includes user made content including total conversion maps, dota-esque stuff etc.

LiTos456
09-13-2009, 09:18 AM
MMORTS, It's how I got here anyway.

Darathor
09-13-2009, 12:08 PM
Even with user-content, I still find the MMORTS mode more attractive because I still prefer the content and features that it offers. I might play a tower defense occasionally, or maybe even dota if I am really bored, but MMORTS mode seems much better(not only for convenience(it will always be there for you, where as you have to find other players for a map) because it let's me interact with dozens and possibly hundreds of people in one large world environment.

Josh Warner
09-13-2009, 12:12 PM
Even with user-content, I still find the MMORTS mode more attractive because I still prefer the content and features that it offers. I might play a tower defense occasionally, or maybe even dota if I am really bored, but MMORTS mode seems much better(not only for convenience(it will always be there for you, where as you have to find other players for a map) because it let's me interact with dozens and possibly hundreds of people in one large world environment.

Oh I agree. I just wanted to clear it up. I myself absolutely plan on creating a specific type of map once I have the editor/no obligations to rev, and playing it whenever I feel like a break from MMORTS mode, unless it happens to be so engrossing that I just never leave MMORTS, which is possible. We'll see how it goes, I have a very specific and well thought out idea that I'd like to do, but if MMORTS mode is just that amazing, well I'll just not do it : p

Darathor
09-13-2009, 12:16 PM
What I would like is a map that is like MMORTS mode but on a much smaller scale to be played with your friends. There would be a few different factions(generally one race per faction) and they each hold a unique kingdom or fort to hold and launch attacks from.

Josh Warner
09-13-2009, 12:26 PM
What I would like is a map that is like MMORTS mode but on a much smaller scale to be played with your friends. There would be a few different factions(generally one race per faction) and they each hold a unique kingdom or fort to hold and launch attacks from.

It's sort of like that, except it modifies the game mechanics. It would be based upon automatically spawned units, it's a rather popular UMS type for SC, and somewhat popular in wc3 customs.

You have several 'spawn' buildings you start with or get through events, then you have 'castles' or whatever the map maker decides to call them - you build them near a spawn, and you increase the number of troops and get higher quality ones from that spawn. What it does is reduces the game down to the basics, it almost totally eliminates economy, when you finish one 'castle' you get enough resources to build another and on and on. Leaving you solely with the choice of which spawn to upgrade and how you use the units at your disposal. It's a UMS type I really enjoy. I could expand further, but I'll stop my wall of text for now.

Puppeteer
09-13-2009, 12:33 PM
I suppose I prefer skirmish. I hate how competitive people are online. I mean, competitive beyond a joke - they find a cheap strategy, and just abuse it. That's not fun for me. I like uniqueness. I like having won with various strategies. From time to time I like playing for aesthetics, not purpose.

Josh Warner
09-13-2009, 12:52 PM
I suppose I prefer skirmish. I hate how competitive people are online. I mean, competitive beyond a joke - they find a cheap strategy, and just abuse it. That's not fun for me. I like uniqueness. I like having won with various strategies. From time to time I like playing for aesthetics, not purpose.

Cheap strategies can oft be a great deal of fun. A few times. Then the novelty wears off, at least for me, and I work on creating a new strategy. But for the most part my strategies consist of tried and true number crunched build orders and scouting to see exactly what to build, It takes some doing but you can reduce any game down to a complex version of rock paper scissors and assign values creating spreadsheets for how effective a unit is when used optimally against every other type of unit, add in the margin of error you have for misclicks/poor targeting/movement decisions and you can figure out almost exactly what you need to beat any given army composition.

I see no lasting joy in a strategy that will simply be fixed in a patch, I just strive to create the best possible strategy that has a chance of being around more than a week or two barring massive rebalancing. Which I've done in several games. I like breaking a game down to it's basics and figuring out how everything works, I enjoy it almost as much as actually playing to be honest. I like math ;)

Darvin
09-13-2009, 12:59 PM
Standard skirmish; I'll give MMORTS a try, but I think my heart will always be in the classic skirmish.

Josh Warner
09-13-2009, 01:04 PM
Standard skirmish; I'll give MMORTS a try, but I think my heart will always be in the classic skirmish.

MMORTS combines persistence and RTS, for me personally it's a dream. Red alert and Ultima online respectively are the two first big games in each genre (rts and MMO respectively) that I played a lot and really got me addicted to them, I've been bouncing around the genres a lot lately. It'd be nice to be able to just stay with this game.

I'm pretty sure I'll still play custom games, I'm not so sure I'll bother playing standard skirmishes.

As a side note to this - I'm considering making a thread and compiling the various types of custom scenarios we all would like to see for this game, as well as maybe even quests for MMORTS/campaign. I want to do something constructive, and I have no map editor, so a compilation of ideas seems in order. Anyone else think this is a good idea? I think it'd liven up the forums a bit, too.

Puppeteer
09-13-2009, 01:52 PM
Nah, any ideas I'll keep to myself thanks.
Haeso, have you got nothing else to do? Pretty much every other post is yours :\

Josh Warner
09-13-2009, 02:03 PM
Nah, any ideas I'll keep to myself thanks.
Haeso, have you got nothing else to do? Pretty much every other post is yours :\

All I've been doing since the internship announcement is watching the forums and scripting. I can stop posting if it's beginning to feel like spam -shrugs-, I thought most of it was actually constructive/thought provoking. I wish there was more activity, been trying to get others to post. I'd really like to be able to carry on some discussions, it's just hard to before people get their hands on the beta and it's largely all speculation/wishlist-esque.

As far as keeping your ideas, go for it :) I'm just looking to get the community involved in something, talking amongst ourselves. Dead forums don't look good to newcomers. I plan to at some point create that thread to gather ideas so anyone with the editor has an idea of what people will actually look forward to though, it would create a lot of discussion. As well as there's nothing more annoying than working forever on something only to find that nobody wants to play that type of game no matter how good it is.

edit for sneaky: C++ isn't worth dealing with unless you really plan on using it. And as far as exercises, yeah there's almost none of that online. You need to get an actual textbook/beginners guide. The most beginner friendly I've seen is python. Lua is 'decent' Essentially I've been creating my own exercises trying to reverse engineer how everything works. Nothing like taking something apart then putting it back together to learn how it works.

edit for puppeteer: I didn't think you were - I just wanted to be sure. I don't want to be obnoxious or annoying and I actually asked in another thread if people had begun to think I was ;) I really just want to get the community excited and talking. Have fun with your Literature, the only book I'm interested in reading won't be out for months sadly. A song of ice and fire, it's the only series that I'm paying attention to.

sneaky_squirrel
09-13-2009, 02:06 PM
I am posting here alot due to the same reason as I have nothing else to do.

OFF TOPIC: I just started trying to learn C++ again though, the tutorial Iam reading really doesn't help much, not much interaction or exercises.

Puppeteer
09-13-2009, 02:06 PM
I'm not chastising you, and yes your posts are constructive. I just wondered why you were posting so much so frequently.
Well, better get on with my critical appreciation for English Literature. Have fun with your C++/LUA what nots.

Joseph Visscher
09-13-2009, 02:25 PM
There is a ~chance~ that beta may not include Standard online skirmish because we want to get mmorts perfect and the majority of the game is on it. its not just players against other players on the world map but also doing quests and visiting main cities, setting up camps around the map, hiring new mercenaries, having armies move around raiding looting other armies and camps. It NEEDS to be done right and we are trying our best to make it so. It would be an epic fail if everyone starts playing "Endless army battle" maps that do not help us in anyway during beta to fix up the game.

If it was up to me, closed beta at least would not contain: Editor, Campaign, Online Skirmish/Custom Maps or Custom Map Skirmish, just basic tutorial, mmorts and a few AI skirmish modes for beginners to learn how to defend and attack a stronghold.

Josh Warner
09-13-2009, 02:49 PM
There is a ~chance~ that beta may not include Standard online skirmish because we want to get mmorts perfect and the majority of the game is on it. its not just players against other players on the world map but also doing quests and visiting main cities, setting up camps around the map, hiring new mercenaries, having armies move around raiding looting other armies and camps. It NEEDS to be done right and we are trying our best to make it so. It would be an epic fail if everyone starts playing "Endless army battle" maps that do not help us in anyway during beta to fix up the game.

If it was up to me, closed beta at least would not contain: Editor, Campaign, Online Skirmish/Custom Maps or Custom Map Skirmish, just basic tutorial, mmorts and a few AI skirmish modes for beginners to learn how to defend and attack a stronghold.

I fully agree, I'll be testing whatever it is you guys think needs the most attention, be it feedback for mmorts or simply footwork, going through and doing everything you can, every way you can looking for bugs, whatever needs to be done. I'd want to start creating various maps as soon as I get the editor, but I'd leave actual playtesting for release. People in the beta are there to be testing the game, not whatever scenarios we can come up with : p

Whether we get the editor or not isn't a huge deal, the testing really is to test, I think we're all aware that if you need focused feedback or bug testing etc we'd all be there doing it.

Puppeteer
09-13-2009, 03:20 PM
I actually think you shouldn't release the editor. It doesn't really need testing, does it? Don't let people get distracted - this is primarily a beta, not a demo.

Josh Warner
09-13-2009, 04:16 PM
I actually think you shouldn't release the editor. It doesn't really need testing, does it? Don't let people get distracted - this is primarily a beta, not a demo.

I hope it's done on a case by case basis and only then after the first few stages, MMORTS is the main draw of the game and needs to work, but the custom scenarios will likely be the second, as much as the regular skirmishes are important, they won't have the same numbers playing them.

The game would benefit from having a few dedicated people creating custom content. Though they might just be taking all the people that could really make use of the editor and getting them to help work on the actual game itself. I wonder how many positions they'll have for the internship.

It is true that most would probably just be wasting time in the editor, interesting point to consider, which is worth more.

Darathor
09-13-2009, 07:18 PM
Getting MMORTS mode right is pretty much the most important thing you guys will and/or should do. More people will play mmorts mode than people who will use the editor enough to find a bug or two, the editor can easily be fixed after the game in a patch, with little or no harm done to the game's reputation. If mmorts mode is done wrong then everyone who doesn't like it will go crazy about how bad it is and the game will be surrounded by thoughts of it's problems.

sneaky_squirrel
09-13-2009, 07:23 PM
Yes, I agree the MMO is what makes this game mighty ;p.

Darvin
09-13-2009, 09:15 PM
The point of releasing the editor in the beta isn't to test it, but rather to introduce the future modding community to the tools so they're already making content before the game even releases.

Anyways, I sincerely hope the beta has skirmish mode.



OFF TOPIC: I just started trying to learn C++ again though, the tutorial Iam reading really doesn't help much, not much interaction or exercises.

Heheh... have fun man.

Josh Warner
09-13-2009, 10:44 PM
Getting MMORTS mode right is pretty much the most important thing you guys will and/or should do. More people will play mmorts mode than people who will use the editor enough to find a bug or two, the editor can easily be fixed after the game in a patch, with little or no harm done to the game's reputation. If mmorts mode is done wrong then everyone who doesn't like it will go crazy about how bad it is and the game will be surrounded by thoughts of it's problems.

Editor bugs are usually trivial, any real changes are usually fan made extensions. Remember, the developers use the same editor. They've found most of the bugs by now for that I imagine. As Darvin said, we would want the more capable modders to have the editor so we can have a few quality scenarios shortly after release, unless they do end up just hiring all the capable modders as interns temporarily. Then they wouldn't need to worry about releasing the editor, those that should have it already would.

Darvin
09-13-2009, 10:56 PM
I'm a capable modder, willing to play with the editor on my own time and create some fan-made content at no charge. I'm not looking for an intern position, however (actually job-hunting for a full-time position currently). So they won't have every modder on hand, and certainly not the sum of the community's creative potential.

As for skirmish, I always believe the game mechanics and pacing are the most interesting places to explore with a game. I love breaking it apart into very fine cause-and-effect scenarios. The skirmish setting is ideal because all things are equal except player strategy, which is ideal to giving insights into the game itself.

Josh Warner
09-13-2009, 11:18 PM
I'm a capable modder, willing to play with the editor on my own time and create some fan-made content at no charge. I'm not looking for an intern position, however (actually job-hunting for a full-time position currently). So they won't have every modder on hand, and certainly not the sum of the community's creative potential.

As for skirmish, I always believe the game mechanics and pacing are the most interesting places to explore with a game. I love breaking it apart into very fine cause-and-effect scenarios. The skirmish setting is ideal because all things are equal except player strategy, which is ideal to giving insights into the game itself.

I didn't mean to say they would have it all darvin, no sleight intended, just most of it. I'm aware there are a few individuals that wouldn't get it that way. That's part of why I wanted to create a thread for the discussion of user created projects, what sort of quests/scenarios the community is interested in. I've already started putting a handful of ideas into it.

wills370
09-14-2009, 12:31 PM
I beleive for thoose with the capability should have the edditors and script codes. However for the vast majority of testers myself included it should be stuck with the mmorts play basic game teachings etc. For this game to do as well as we all want it to do we need it to run well. And for that to happen we need to test what needs testing the most. And if they think the mmort work will need the most patches etc. Then that is exactly what all testers should be doing. otherwise what is the point in having them.

there will be plenty of opetunity when the game is distributed for sale for all your playervs player skirmishes to be met. So im not in any rush either.

I think the campaign would also need minimal work so that can be left for the edditors etc to test etc.

Ironic
09-18-2009, 02:17 AM
The MMORTS appeals most to me
Theres plenty of great pure competitive rts around but basicly no ( maybe beyond protocol as an exeption ) decent mmorts's

Chris Harshman
09-18-2009, 06:53 AM
The MMORTS appeals most to me
Theres plenty of great pure competitive rts around but basicly no ( maybe beyond protocol as an exeption ) decent mmorts's

Beyond Protocol is an good game, but hardly a great pure competitive game, because you cannot getright into it and challange top players. You need to put in months of work to do that.

Josh Warner
09-18-2009, 07:06 AM
Beyond Protocol is an good game, but hardly a great pure competitive game, because you cannot getright into it and challange top players. You need to put in months of work to do that.

I really didn't care for the game. As far as needing time if you come in late though? You'd need to anyway. It doesn't matter how good you are, when you're new to a game you'll need time to master everything. I spend at least a month practicing before attempting anything competitive in a new game, and I've been among the best in several games over the years.

wills370
09-21-2009, 02:44 AM
I really didn't care for the game. As far as needing time if you come in late though? You'd need to anyway. It doesn't matter how good you are, when you're new to a game you'll need time to master everything. I spend at least a month practicing before attempting anything competitive in a new game, and I've been among the best in several games over the years.
true, to be the best you need to know all aspecs of the game. So building on all the backwork and AI before you move onto mmorg would be the way to go. Depending on the options they give in the beta anyway we will just have to learn as we go i believe.

stinkylover
09-21-2009, 01:39 PM
mmorts mode for me. skirmishes have been done to death imo ill play total war if i want to skirmish ( i have nothing against those of u who just want to skirmish), but a persistent medieval/fantasy kingdom ...wow that will rock.
to be able to build up a little kingdom and ally with you neighbors, watch your people move around the city, manage your army , and know that you could suddenly be thrust into a war , imo that cool . in a skirmish you know why u are there, against a computer or a player you know the fight will start, with in the time u allotted your self to play, and you know that know that once its over you will just start another random encounter. just my opinion .... so i vote mmorts :D

Henry Martin
09-22-2009, 09:27 PM
mmorts mode for me. skirmishes have been done to death imo ill play total war if i want to skirmish ( i have nothing against those of u who just want to skirmish), but a persistent medieval/fantasy kingdom ...wow that will rock.
to be able to build up a little kingdom and ally with you neighbors, watch your people move around the city, manage your army , and know that you could suddenly be thrust into a war , imo that cool . in a skirmish you know why u are there, against a computer or a player you know the fight will start, with in the time u allotted your self to play, and you know that know that once its over you will just start another random encounter. just my opinion .... so i vote mmorts :D

agreed. I'm not much of an mmo player and I have never played a mmorts, but I am really looking forward to this games mmorts mode.

Emperor Nero
09-27-2009, 06:43 AM
I've been waiting for a good, innovative MMORTS, for a long time so that gets my vote.

wills370
09-27-2009, 12:31 PM
MMORTS definatly for myself also. The thought of having a persistant kingdom agaisnt other humans is inspiring to say the least and a breath of fresh air gaming has been needing for a very long time.

I also love the fact that you can constantly grow adding cityies etc to truly make a online empire. That dosent have a time limit :P

EmpressHebihime
10-11-2009, 10:42 AM
MMORTS: Finnaly! An MMORTS with a giant world where you can build up a giant empire to use and strategise what to do next! All hail Reverie World Studios!

Standard: Small and probably speed based. Small but probably fun. :D

LiTos456
10-11-2009, 11:26 PM
All hail Reverie World Studios!

shh don't give them too much self confidence. Let them finish the work first :p

EmpressHebihime
10-14-2009, 10:25 AM
hahaha, ok ok.