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OrleanKnight
08-13-2007, 03:34 PM
Greetings once again, just in case some of the questions I posed come at a loss for the development team -- I've decided to post a few ideas that me, and the Xen community would like to request about this particular game.

-- Customizable Races --
Bringing Unique Appearances to the MMORTS field.

Over the course of the years I've played many RTS games, and frankly there playing the same thing over and over does get a little old. Also, it's a little odd to fight the same race as yours, given that for example: Dwarf Race A and Dwarf Race B, Together hate Human Race C, why must they kill each other too?

Well I'm sure this problem, and others, may appear as the game progresses into the MMORTS field of play. So, in order to further the games possible potential in strategy and enjoyability -- allowing the players much more freedom over races they desire to command. And allowing them do this without radically changing any of the foundation of elements of the game itself. In other words, purely cosmetic, and not fundamentally game breaking.


Players could have the ability to "Create a Faction", one that is unique to them, and no one else -- or at least they feel it is anyway. They get to name this faction, upload customized flags and banners, dressings for uniques, and even a written history.

Players can then go into a Faction Builder screen, allowing them select through a library of models to decorate their race. In order not to potentially confuse other players, powerful units can not be hidden beneath a weaker unit's model. There must be "Model Sets" such as Large Unit A -- can only pick from the Large Model gallery. There can even be several existing models for the same race, like various Dragon models to give your Dragon Faction a little more personalized look.

Players can then colorize the units a little, using sliding color pallets and RGB windows.

Players can choose from various structure sets, but still must be within the limits of their faction. For example, if a player uses a Dragon Faction as the base of their race's fundamental identity, but change the look or name to a Troll Faction. They can only use Dragon Faction structures, but have the option of changing the art a little. They can not select Human looking structure for example. This would be far too confusing!

This way when you encounter new players in a MMORTS field, you can meet new and unique Factions that are more driven to fit that player who commands them.


-- Change the Game's Name --
Just a suggestion?

Not exactly one of my own, but this a few things the community has pointed out. The title Dawn of Fantasy doesn't really seem to really express the nature of this game very well, nor does it sound like a solid franchise title. Also, it can be summed up as DOF -- which doesn't roll off the tounge very well.

Perhaps something with a bit more kick? Understanding that many of the good titles are expired, perhaps something a little more reflecting of the large scale of the game?

Something like: D.A.W.N. (Dragons and Waring Nations) Epic Battles of Fantasy and Magic

jap88
08-13-2007, 05:02 PM
oops, first reply was thinking something else, that is a good oppurtunity for customization and giving the races a unique feel however that adds much time to the development process desiging extra models and implementing animations.

I also doubt a name change is in order and i don't really see anything wrong with it.

Darvin
08-13-2007, 05:03 PM
My experience with "user created factions" is that balance just goes down the drain. Everyone ends up playing pretty much identicle builds based on the mainstream cookie cutter strategies, and the feature ends up counting for nothing. Another issue I have with such a system is that it's very taxing on the developers, and can take away from other aspects of the game.

As for custom heraldry, that's another matter, one which has its own thread.


Frankly, I think Dawn of Fantasy is a great name, and (sorry to be woefully blunt) but your suggestions just suck. I don't think I would ever buy a game called "Dragons and Warring Nations".

jap88
08-13-2007, 05:10 PM
By custom ones, i think he means that each standard unit will be replaceable by another alternate unit that looks different but has the same stats. That is an idea that could work. As to totally custom races, it is not a good idea.

Darvin
08-13-2007, 05:26 PM
Custom unit appearances could work, but it would still be limited by practical restrictions, since players would need to be able to identify what unit type they are facing. I find many RTS games have ambiguous units to begin with, and certainly having units that can be made to look alike is a potential abuse. That said, I'm certainly much more open to discussion on this aspect then on totally customizeable races.

OrleanKnight
08-13-2007, 08:41 PM
replaceable by another alternate unit that looks different but has the same stats.

Exactly, this is what I mean. And to help reduce production drain on the developers, I highly suggest making cookie-cutter animation sets that can be applied to several models of a certain branch or tier.

Without playing the game it would be very hard to go into detail and draw our diagrams of my idea, but it is sound and can function quite easily as I've seen it put to good use in Non-Multiplayer Strategy games. This being said, allow me to clarify just one more time.

Let's say I wanted to make a custom race.

I'd select the Dragon Faction as a base foundation (stats, units, speed, ect). Then I just change the cosmetic appearance of the units from a library of units which can fit the Dragon Faction play style (Ogres or Trolls for example), and then save and play. That's pretty much it.

As for "needin to be able to identify what unit type they are facing" -- this can be worked around by allowing players to do a little more research on the possible appearance of units. Also, a very detailed help-tool ingame would also be a very easy work around. Just basically tell the player what the base unit is if they select it. They'll eventually learn what is what.

Darvin
08-13-2007, 09:32 PM
It's not a question of necessarily knowing all the different appearances a unit could take, but mistaking two similar looking units. I could see it as abusive to pick two similar appearances for very different unit types. It's not that it's impossible to tell them apart, it's that at a glance they can be mistaken, and that's an unfair advantage.

Beyond that, no matter how well you do in-game help, such a system will never be newb friendly. I think custom heraldry and some different options for colouring and design would be awesome, but entirely different models will probably drain too many resources and open up too many considerations like the one I just talked out.

OrleanKnight
08-13-2007, 10:54 PM
Well a great way to make sure there isn't too much confusion with units is not let each model type be able to pick from the same model pool. This just means far more work for the devs, but more playability for the player!

Darvin
08-14-2007, 12:53 AM
I don't think it's always that simple, but anyways, the bottom line is that I'd prefer the devs spend their time in other places, polishing up the gameplay and adding depth to its mechanics.

OrleanKnight
08-14-2007, 02:19 AM
You'd be amazed at how much a more custom fit race would stir the gaming community. If there is any stage consider it, now may be good of time as any.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-14-2007, 12:33 PM
Frankly, I think Dawn of Fantasy is a great name, and (sorry to be woefully blunt) but your suggestions just suck. I don't think I would ever buy a game called "Dragons and Warring Nations".


Woohoo! Go Darvin! :D I think the custom armies or nations would be too much for an online game as well as being to overpowered. I agree that the name stinks.

OrleanKnight
08-14-2007, 01:21 PM
You guyys are ultimately neglecting that the suggestion was to call the game DAWN right?

Darvin
08-14-2007, 03:44 PM
If there is any stage consider it, now may be good of time as any

Certainly now is the time to make such considerations. Personally, I'd rather see a "paper doll" type system where you choose what type/colour of shield, helmet, sword, etc that your soldiers will carry and use, but not the model remains a default one. This keeps the variety you're seeking, while still keeping the workload on developers low and a certain degree of standardization that the game needs.



You guyys are ultimately neglecting that the suggestion was to call the game DAWN right?

We're talking exclusively about the other suggestion now, so don't worry about it. As much as I was blunt with you earlier, I'm not the kind of guy to hold such things against you. And Witchking, there's no reason to rub it in for him. I think we all agree about the name thing, but one clear comment is enough.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-14-2007, 08:25 PM
Certainly now is the time to make such considerations. Personally, I'd rather see a "paper doll" type system where you choose what type/colour of shield, helmet, sword, etc that your soldiers will carry and use, but not the model remains a default one. This keeps the variety you're seeking, while still keeping the workload on developers low and a certain degree of standardization that the game needs.



We're talking exclusively about the other suggestion now, so don't worry about it. As much as I was blunt with you earlier, I'm not the kind of guy to hold such things against you. And Witchking, there's no reason to rub it in for him. I think we all agree about the name thing, but one clear comment is enough.


Lol sorry. I usually don't do that but I was in the mood. :) Lol I apologize for that. Anyways...... I think the system you came up with Darvin is really good. I like in BFME the system they used in that. Some of the units look really good in some of those colors. Ex: Rohan in green and Gondor in blue.

frankein_fish
08-15-2007, 08:26 AM
Lol sorry. I usually don't do that but I was in the mood. :) Lol I apologize for that. Anyways...... I think the system you came up with Darvin is really good. I like in BFME the system they used in that. Some of the units look really good in some of those colors. Ex: Rohan in green and Gondor in blue.

Yeah that was quite a good system

OrleanKnight
08-15-2007, 10:01 AM
Warhammer: Mark of Chaos used the Paper Doll system, and frankly it didn't really amount to much in the form of customized units. You realized that even though you can chance the look of the armor, and build the unit with different delments, colors, and and maybe even so slight facial differences -- it didn't amount to much at all in a satisfactory form of customization.

For in the end, the unit it just too small to really make visible changes. However, if you were to offer the ability to replace that unit with anoither one completely, that offers more of a feeling customization. Even more so if you can change the skin and colors of the unit itself.

So far a lot of the points which aim to de-bunk my idea, don't really have much to them. All I'm hearing is mainly "Too much work" or "Unbalanced". Well the first is for the Dev-Team to decide that, not you -- and secondly, Balance is not an issue when you're just dressing up an already balanced unit with a new model.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-15-2007, 11:47 AM
Warhammer: Mark of Chaos used the Paper Doll system, and frankly it didn't really amount to much in the form of customized units. You realized that even though you can chance the look of the armor, and build the unit with different delments, colors, and and maybe even so slight facial differences -- it didn't amount to much at all in a satisfactory form of customization.

For in the end, the unit it just too small to really make visible changes. However, if you were to offer the ability to replace that unit with anoither one completely, that offers more of a feeling customization. Even more so if you can change the skin and colors of the unit itself.

So far a lot of the points which aim to de-bunk my idea, don't really have much to them. All I'm hearing is mainly "Too much work" or "Unbalanced". Well the first is for the Dev-Team to decide that, not you -- and secondly, Balance is not an issue when you're just dressing up an already balanced unit with a new model.

Personally I don't think this hs a very big issue. I am looking for gameplay not unit colors. Whatever system they use is fine with me.

Darvin
08-15-2007, 12:34 PM
Well the first is for the Dev-Team to decide that, not you -- and secondly, Balance is not an issue when you're just dressing up an already balanced unit with a new model.

You're certainly right that it's for the developers to decide, but that doesn't mean I won't say what I think.

Balance is often oversimplified by people who talk about it. Colours and aesthetics have a considerable impact on balance if they are not approached carefully. For instance, the "earth tones" often camouflage on the mini-map and render you nearly invisible to the less attentive eye. The units may be identicle stats-wise to everyone else's, but they have this special property due to their colours. Anyone who would claim this is not an advantage is just being foolish. Without some system (such as the large icons used in supreme commander) to distinguish "earth tone" colours from the back ground surroundings it's just not practical to allow someone to play with them.

I think you're being way too critical if you think a paper doll insufficiant. I can understand that many features aren't apparent at a higher zoom, but in reality at such zoom you're not going to be able to make out any details anyways. Moreover, I don't think you realize how little option you will get in your system. How many models do you think you'll get for each unit? Suppose there are about twelve (a low-ball guess) units per faction, and there are the four factions. That's around 50 units. Last I checked, it's very not trivial to go through the full range of developing a single unique model, from concept art to the finished product. Even if there are three options per unit (frankly, a paper-doll system will offer far more than that could), that raises the bar to 150 unique models to develop. That's a considerable increase in workload for what is really a very moderate gain. I think you'll get far more variety out of paper doll than you ever could out of entirely different models.

Ryan Zelazny
08-15-2007, 03:44 PM
OrleanKnight, thanks for explaining a little bit more about the system.

I don't think we will be employing it however, as Darvin has pointed it out it is quite a bit of cost for very little gain. If you do want custom models, you could always create your own after release, or re-skin the stock ones and your army would appear different. The other players wouldn't notice your model change but atleast your getting what you want. I understand the want to show off a custom thing to the online world, but it's really not feasible when we look at how much money and time it would cost to implement such a system.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-15-2007, 05:10 PM
OrleanKnight, thanks for explaining a little bit more about the system.

I don't think we will be employing it however, as Darvin has pointed it out it is quite a bit of cost for very little gain. If you do want custom models, you could always create your own after release, or re-skin the stock ones and your army would appear different. The other players wouldn't notice your model change but atleast your getting what you want. I understand the want to show off a custom thing to the online world, but it's really not feasible when we look at how much money and time it would cost to implement such a system.

Hey OrleanKnight, if you want all that so much you could just make a mod for the game once it is released. Nice point Dravin about the camo. I mainly play BFME and usually never see anything like that on there.

kingtom256
08-15-2007, 05:32 PM
but maybe a release for xbox 360 would be helpful once or twice:p

The Witch King of Angmar
08-15-2007, 06:41 PM
but maybe a release for xbox 360 would be helpful once or twice:p

What? They are going to release it for the 360.

kingtom256
08-16-2007, 05:57 AM
maybe, maybe not, well never know:p

But still though, different coloured camoflauge would be helpful

The Witch King of Angmar
08-16-2007, 10:35 AM
maybe, maybe not, well never know:p

But still though, different coloured camoflauge would be helpful

That's like cheating though.

jap88
08-16-2007, 07:13 PM
Wish i was here for this debate however i would like to point out that in Dawn of War i never found the customizable colors to ever be a problem. Never did i mistake an enemy for an ally and i never had any problems with units blending into the terrain.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-17-2007, 07:51 AM
Wish i was here for this debate however i would like to point out that in Dawn of War i never found the customizable colors to ever be a problem. Never did i mistake an enemy for an ally and i never had any problems with units blending into the terrain.

Same here. I mean occasionally I lost track of my units but never saw any camoed units or anything like that.

ShadowyMoon
10-01-2007, 04:17 AM
There were problems with the earth tone colors in Warcraft 3 blending too much into the minimap. Back on topic i think OrleanKnight is forgetting that DoF is Reverie's first game and they probably don't have the resources to make such a system. Also such customization is not always good (Gal Civ II) and letting the devs handle the races is usually a better idea like Kerberos did with Sword of the Stars. They had 4 (5 with the expansion) races that had very unique looks,backstory,phylosophy and gameplay. I'd prefer that than user created races.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 01:34 PM
There were problems with the earth tone colors in Warcraft 3 blending too much into the minimap. Back on topic i think OrleanKnight is forgetting that DoF is Reverie's first game and they probably don't have the resources to make such a system. Also such customization is not always good (Gal Civ II) and letting the devs handle the races is usually a better idea like Kerberos did with Sword of the Stars. They had 4 (5 with the expansion) races that had very unique looks,backstory,phylosophy and gameplay. I'd prefer that than user created races.

I liked being gray with like the Mirkwood Archers in BFME because they blended in with the trees really well.

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 01:52 PM
Exactly and that's an unfair advantage. Colors shouldn't give you any advantages.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 04:15 PM
i think the colours could be any thing...SM i think you worry to much now shush with you

Ryan Zelazny
10-02-2007, 04:32 PM
i think the colours could be any thing...SM i think you worry to much now shush with you

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion Sparrow.

I agree that colours can give distinct advantages for players. Even in non-RTS games you see this happen. I know people who change the player-models on Counter-Strike to just colours based on how much damage you can deal to each area and make seeing people in the dark easier.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 04:34 PM
In strategic games the main thing is to be unseen.so i see the colour to blend in is a great choice.people who complaine are jealus

Ryan Zelazny
10-02-2007, 04:40 PM
In DoF there are enough built-in features, like darkness, line of sight, and stealth bonuses that colour is something that would be unfair.

I'm not sure how WKoA's example works as I haven't gotten to play BFME yet, but if there is only one colour that blends in, and one person takes it, thats an unfair advantage and a abuse of game-mechanics. If it's custom colouring and both people have equal oppertunity to do it, then it's a different story and I suppose it could be considered a viable strategy.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 04:46 PM
lol i dont know if your on my side or SM it complicated anywys.

if colour custom is IN then its fair...like you said.but if the colour was gray and it was a dark map and some one is "blending in" then there should be the alarm like C&C3 like THE ENEMY APPROACHES and press Y and there the enemy is

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 05:03 PM
It's best just to eliminate the blending colors. And yes I do worry a bit because I've seen quite a lot of good games go to oblivion due to some small mistakes being made and poor marketing. I'd hate that to happen to DoF.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 05:14 PM
so your saying that kewl colours are bad...arrgh im mad....the blendign colours are STRADEGY gawd ITS AN mililitary colour MAN...anyways look at the screenshots this game wont have alot of blending

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 05:16 PM
It's not gameplay balanced Sparrow. And as Ryan said DoF has already quite a few stealth features. So in a nutshell yes kewl colours are bad.

jap88
10-02-2007, 05:32 PM
The point of DoF is not to be realistic..it has magic for God's sake along with non-existent races for factions. Customization does indeed look cool but at the same time a company has to balance the game, not to a cookie cutter balance, but in a way thats balanced so that no one player has an advantage that the other player cannot achieve. You can't change your color scheme in game and to prevent complaints and unfair games it is best just to leave it alone and not implement it.

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 05:34 PM
Exactly what I was trying to explain jap. Thanks for summarising it.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 05:47 PM
The point of DoF is not to be realistic..it has magic for God's sake along with non-existent races for factions. Customization does indeed look cool but at the same time a company has to balance the game, not to a cookie cutter balance, but in a way thats balanced so that no one player has an advantage that the other player cannot achieve. You can't change your color scheme in game and to prevent complaints and unfair games it is best just to leave it alone and not implement it.

This also goes with glitching other people and freezing them up while you can still play for me.

jap88
10-02-2007, 05:49 PM
Is that reffering to the problem of people hitting the reset button on their router while playing a game? Happens all the time and it's cheat as hell.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 05:51 PM
Is that reffering to the problem of people hitting the reset button on their router while playing a game? Happens all the time and it's cheat as hell.

I'm not sure though I see it alot.

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 05:53 PM
I always knew routers were evil lol. Though I never knew you could cheat like that. Very unfair :/

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 06:01 PM
I always knew routers were evil lol. Though I never knew you could cheat like that. Very unfair :/

Routers jam up games whether you try to or not.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 06:11 PM
lol i play xbox live on an linkys router does that mean im an cheta

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 06:11 PM
We ment PC routers mainly. (I think..)

jap88
10-02-2007, 06:11 PM
Routers usually aren't a problem unless reset.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 06:12 PM
lol i play xbox live on an linkys router does that mean im an cheta

I never said you were, but I have a Linksys and it stinks.

Ryan Zelazny
10-02-2007, 06:14 PM
I have a Microsoft Wireless B router, and it's the best router I've ever owned. I bought brand new Linksys, D-Link, and Netgear Wireless N routers and I had to return them all cause they lagged so much more than my old Microsoft one.

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 06:14 PM
Routers generally stink... They really overcomplicate network connections.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 06:32 PM
well what esl can i use instead of my ruiters i thoguht it was the only thing

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 06:33 PM
As I said we are talking about PC routers. I think it is indeed the only way for consoles.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 06:35 PM
dang no wonder i lag out over xbox live when my mom uses her facebook DARN YOU CHEAP TECH

The Witch King of Angmar
10-03-2007, 02:50 PM
As I said we are talking about PC routers. I think it is indeed the only way for consoles.

Overall I hate mine because the quality is just terrible. It is mostly Linksys fault.

SPARROW94
10-03-2007, 05:16 PM
dude linkys suck i keep lagging out in my halo3 matchmaking

The Witch King of Angmar
10-03-2007, 05:17 PM
dude linkys suck i keep lagging out in my halo3 matchmaking

Same here with BFME and sometimes the internet.

SPARROW94
10-03-2007, 06:17 PM
TWKOA is netgear any good im thinking of buying one of those

The Witch King of Angmar
10-04-2007, 04:08 PM
TWKOA is netgear any good im thinking of buying one of those

I wouldn't know. Do a little research and find out.

SPARROW94
10-04-2007, 04:39 PM
i already know now so lets end the convo about me finding ruiters....so whats your fac RTS game?

ShadowyMoon
10-04-2007, 04:40 PM
Starcraft. Best RTS game ever.

SPARROW94
10-04-2007, 05:07 PM
SM you got me into Starcraft...at first i thought UGHHHH....now i think ARGOUGHH

ShadowyMoon
10-04-2007, 05:53 PM
Yay me. Seriously SC is a great game.

Andreas Hollandt
10-04-2007, 06:17 PM
Isn't this going off topic?

ShadowyMoon
10-04-2007, 08:12 PM
Yeah it is... Lately most threads tend to go off topic. Sorry...