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Svulnar
01-24-2014, 02:35 PM
I have to ask that because sure, they are unique, but are they intended to have as much range combined with that much damage? I understand its very costly to stamina, but it just seems insane the kind of range/damage they seem to have with some of these spells. If the target doesn't have mostly tank squads, then likely in 1 maybe 2 casts most of them will be dead. Entire armies? That can't possibly be balanced, it reminds me of the times that a Royal could almost always solo armies of equal strength.

I could even live with the high damage and the high range if for one thing. If, when on lower settings like i play *for maximum smoothness* there was some kind of INDICATION OF THE SPELL. The last time i had lightning storm cast on me, there was no indication until several of my squads were suddenly dead with a quiet lightning noise that is barely noticeable *to me anyways*. Something even as basic as a big red line surrounding the area of effect would be great.

If they are to keep this much *power* with range and damage, then shouldn't they then cost more than 5 cap? Currently they are at the levels that you were forced to up the Royal dragon to 15 cap. They are not buffers to armies with don't do much harm to the enemy, and just help you own army *such as orc shaman for 5 cap* but they are the reverse and have immense offensive power to the enemy and seem to do little for your own. While that is all well in good in theory, in practice it ends up being *no wizard, i can just bombard you from waaaaaaaaaaaay over here*.

I don't want to see this game turn into a game where every PvP match has to do with *kill the wizard first* like how in all mmo's it is *kill the healer first*. The only difference is, is the fact that healers are all defensive bonuses and substainment bonuses. The wizard, is like someone saying *focus the dps, he is a much bigger threat than the healer* which, if anyone here has played PvP in most mmo's, is ridiculous. Now, i understand this is a strategy game and it has different rules, but 1 unit, no matter how much it costs to get to decent levels, should not 1-3 shot entire armies from super range.

Please either adjust the wizards to not be able to 1-3 shot armies, up their cap to fit their power, or at the very least...make it so that there is an indication for those on lower settings to be able to see that a negative effect is hovering above their army, even if it is just a simple circle.

Konstantin Fomenko
01-24-2014, 06:08 PM
I have to say Lightning Storm is OP, and is getting reduced damage in the next patch. And with Wizards it will take us couple of patches to get them right.

Tbeaz161
01-28-2014, 10:19 PM
I'm finding wizards to be absurdly powerful, large armies can get decimated easily by wizards from far too far away, it's very difficult to attack them, and if you manage to kill them you most likely have only a shell of an army left.

That simply isn't right, especially when a wizard is immortal but you might permanently lose all the units. I'm not saying make wizards mortal, it's just annoying.

When I have to either surrender when i see some wizards or lose atleast half my army automatically it isn't right. It currently takes no skill to win this way.

Not to mention how brokenly devastating they are to NPC towns..

Don't get me wrong I absolutely love this game and I support it's development whole heartedly, but the degree to which wizards are broken make me think something went terribly wrong, or next to no testing was done before pushing them out for the expansion, which is just unacceptable to me.

I love and will continue to play the game, but please change the wizards, COMPLETELY rework them if you must but something has to be done as they are game breakingly powerful at the moment in my opinion.

Tbeaz161
01-28-2014, 10:35 PM
More specifically if you have a larger army of less trained troops and you get put against a few say lvl 40 wizards, they most likely done for.


I believe it would have been a much better idea to have lowered the damage instead of the hp of wizards, one spell should not be able to take out literally 6 infantry battalions.

axal011
01-29-2014, 01:09 AM
Kon, aye they are OP, Might I suggest also stopping lightning,meteor from Following targets? kinda not nice that it follows my mounted knights.


Should be an AOE "Area of effect" Damage and not something that follows.

Gwydion
01-29-2014, 01:25 AM
Kon, aye they are OP, Might I suggest also stopping lightning,meteor from Following targets? kinda not nice that it follows my mounted knights.


Should be an AOE "Area of effect" Damage and not something that follows.

yea this needs to be fixed lol we are working on it :)

Azumazi
01-29-2014, 02:47 AM
Yes, I myself today literally had that happen with my own knights. I also think that the following needs to be done to better balance wizards.

1. They need a population cap increase based on their level. Wizards increase in power substantially over time more so than any other unit in the game based on their spells having a minimum level requirement. All in all, by level 50 which unlocks their 5th level spell for use once researched should eat 25 population cap. Yes, this is a lot, but it would also limit the ability to use 2 wizards in one army, where as quite a few at this time run a calm and deep wizard or calm and wave together with only 10 cap points giving a lot of power.

2. Reduce their regeneration each upgrade from +2 to +1 to a max of 1/2 of a hero's cap, this way should the hero's top regeneration ever be altered theirs would be as well.

3. Remove the AoE follow ability (Which is already being looked into).

The above would also most likely require a look into dragons shortly after with Royal and Red dragons possibly needing a pop cap increase as well, but they don't have near the utility as the wizards do at this time.

Gwydion
01-29-2014, 03:07 AM
i think that the 1st suggestion would be too hard to code. 3 is not intended and is a bug( so it will be gone) 2 sounds like a good idea... i also think that running should deplete their stamina as well.

Azumazi
01-29-2014, 04:24 AM
The first suggestion wouldn't be too hard to code, it would just tax the servers to do a checksum on the unit and setup a global module to check when a wizard hits a certain level. Best times for that would be to have it check after a battle exits and when a player logs in or else it would eat up latency a lot.

Another one that someone mentioned would be to ladder it based on tiers, but that really would be a pain to code. If the above is too much, hard cap them at 20 population cap, so to run 2 wizards they could only have 20 cap worth of troops and that would also mean issues with looting.

A 4th suggestion, which would also help reduce the power of both wizards and dragons, would be add a building to each race that allows you to research elemental resistances for units.

Haldol
01-29-2014, 11:46 AM
Wizzards are not working. I tell you why.

even after patch patch 1.23. 1 spell whiped out my intire army and farmers. I can rebuild cause i dont have any resources. Yet again why should i need too? If 1 mage can drop lighting on my walled up base from a very far distance why should i want to rebuild? Seems useless too me.

Konstantin Fomenko
01-29-2014, 11:49 AM
Good suggestions guys, we`ll do another round of adjusting wizards in the next patch.

rbfloat05
01-29-2014, 06:46 PM
Good suggestions guys, we`ll do another round of adjusting wizards in the next patch.

Okay here please dont listen to the handful of people in this thread dont like wizards I get it.


But the changes you are taking about will completly make wizards usless, the ONLY good thing about lightning storm is that it follows its targets.


Other wizards spells? Simply spread out move away, and all that spell is wasted. Lightning storm does ALOT less damage now hardly anything. To get any use out of lightning storm you have to have multiple deep mages.



If any of my deep mages die I lose thousands thousands of gold. Have to respend all my points to relevel the mage again waste time clicking hundereds of time each dead mage, waste HUNDEREDS of thousands of gold to relevel them.



If the game lags? Dead mage, there goes thousands of gold.



Yes please keep nerfing mages again and again until its useless.


No matter how hard you NERF mages you cant fix guys that dont know how to focus fire the DPS.


Deep mages were nerfed hard and now you need MANY deep mages to do what 1 mage could do before.


More deep mage nerfs will make them useless.

So you dont want to have to focus fire the DPS? why the hell not its the smart thing to do.


Mages are the squishies and most expensive thing in the game by far now, and a few handful of vocal people just want to nerf them more and more.


Me and MANY other people in game ( not the handful that post in these forums) think that mages are fine me and all my friends.


This game hardly has any magic going on and its SHAME, and now people want to ruin the only magic we have.



If you nerf mages more will really ruin the game for me and alot of people.


Mages are not a "I win button" like some people think....


takes ALOT of micro to keep a mage alive and one second of not pay attention he is dead.



The spells are easy to avoid if people spread out there forces, dont really do all that much damage, and have Huge cooldowns.


Oh yeah, also, mages suck at EVERYTHing except casting a spell every now and then that can just be dodged and laughed at.




also people dont even use the main in game counter to different magic, all mages of different types have different defense spells against different schools of magic.

mages can counter other mages EASY even if you dont spread out your units and focus fire the mages.

Its paper rock scissors thing, the founding block of many RTS games. or just listen to a few mad people "nerf tha dps he kill me he is overpowered please developers nerf please"



please dont listen to the handful of people on this forum that hate mages and ruin the only casters in this game.

If you nerf lightning storm more it will be so useless, Fire mage hardly inflicts any casuallties, calm mage can be dodged or waited out easy. mages are BALANCED.


Mages require SO much gold and any small mistake costs you a ton they are laughably easy to kill.


I play casters in every game i hate playing as warriors and if mages are nerfed more it will ruin this game for me and alot of other peoples.


Why destroy one of main features of expansion



Mages require Insane micro to keep alive or bigarmies protecting them.


They can be countered by spreading out, sending people in to assassinate mages, countered by other mages, sending units from different directions.


They can bug out and not listen to commands and stand there and die, happens alot since they are so weak, then poof there goes all my gold



wave mage spells can be easily dodged and dont even kill that well in my opinion, and calm spells are decent but if you spread out have VERY small radius.



Of course people die if they clump together their units, this happens IN many other RTS games. My royal dragon kills clumped units JUST as good as a mage spell


same with hydra has insane AOE attack.




Please dont ruin game and mages

very dissappointing to see casters treated like this

Azumazi
01-29-2014, 08:20 PM
First and foremost, it isn't just a handful of people complaining about mages. I suggest you actually read the general chat sometime and see just how many of us find them broken. Also, I have mages, I fully admit they are OP. Especially in a siege when you're attacking someones defenses. It's hard to spread out forces in a town. Now before you go "Focus fire on the wizard", I'll tell you exactly what happened with I tried just that before the last patch.

780 point defense city vs 440 attacker. I am the defender, hes the attacker.

2 mages on attacker side, 46 calm, 50 wave mage, 2 halbs, a few foot knights, lots of swordsmen.

I have a mix of 9 mounted level 11 knights, 12 foot knights of levels 8-20, 2 level 12 dwarf rifles, 6 level 6 rangers, and a mix of archers, crossbows. Also around 4 halbs, 7 swordsmen, dragonslayer.

My mounted knights are specced for damage. Around 600 on each. My wizards are in my army which are not in the castle. he has an opening in the rear, I drop a rear charge into his deep mage since his calm in in a mix of foot knights, they plow through the halbs and slam into him, 30 seconds of combat and his mage has only lost 25% of his health and my knights have been stam drained to the point they cannot break the engagement.

So that's 9x600 for 5400 damage, and they couldn't take down that wizard in that time frame due to high hp regen + stamina drain. Not to mention when my knights ran away, they were completely finished off by meteor swarm which followed them hitting them everytime.

So yes, please cry more that your broken unit is going to be nerfed, because name me another unit in the game that 2 of them in an army can literally shut down a front. I don't see 2 dragons doing that.

rbfloat05
01-29-2014, 08:37 PM
First and foremost, it isn't just a handful of people complaining about mages. I suggest you actually read the general chat sometime and see just how many of us find them broken. Also, I have mages, I fully admit they are OP. Especially in a siege when you're attacking someones defenses. It's hard to spread out forces in a town. Now before you go "Focus fire on the wizard", I'll tell you exactly what happened with I tried just that before the last patch.

780 point defense city vs 440 attacker. I am the defender, hes the attacker.

2 mages on attacker side, 46 calm, 50 wave mage, 2 halbs, a few foot knights, lots of swordsmen.

I have a mix of 9 mounted level 11 knights, 12 foot knights of levels 8-20, 2 level 12 dwarf rifles, 6 level 6 rangers, and a mix of archers, crossbows. Also around 4 halbs, 7 swordsmen, dragonslayer.

My mounted knights are specced for damage. Around 600 on each. My wizards are in my army which are not in the castle. he has an opening in the rear, I drop a rear charge into his deep mage since his calm in in a mix of foot knights, they plow through the halbs and slam into him, 30 seconds of combat and his mage has only lost 25% of his health and my knights have been stam drained to the point they cannot break the engagement.

So that's 9x600 for 5400 damage, and they couldn't take down that wizard in that time frame due to high hp regen + stamina drain. Not to mention when my knights ran away, they were completely finished off by meteor swarm which followed them hitting them everytime.

So yes, please cry more that your broken unit is going to be nerfed, because name me another unit in the game that 2 of them in an army can literally shut down a front. I don't see 2 dragons doing that.

in fact 2 powerful dragons could do the same thing as those mages, you obviously dont know what your talking about.


First meteor swarm doesnt follow targets it doesnt home in.....


usually it misses and causes not that much damage, iprefer hellspikes

second the wizard probably cast the lightning sphere, in that case you should have gone for his calm wizard and killed it


this must have been BEFORE the patch.


Since this new patch wizards only have a regen of 30 a second, and only have FOUR THOUSAND base health, is nothing, there is no way the battle happened like you said it did the wizards would have been dead.


plusidk what you talking about tons of people say mages are very squishy and weak.


sucks when peopl make up stuff to get their point across


mages very hard for new players to level and keep alive


and its easy to miss with theyr spells, and their spells are not very powerful anymore

Loriael
01-30-2014, 11:54 AM
Hi guys,

I am new here, but I am loving the game, even with some bugs and balance issues. The campaign quest lines and graphics are pretty to me, and pvp can be pretty fun when it is not uselessly laggy or my UI doesn't lock up control of my units.

I just wanted to share an opinion for this discussion not necessarily for or against wizards, but for game balance in general that you could try to adopt across the board:

I think the philosophy of game balance needs to be taken into consideration.

When you nerf everything to be all equally useless or buff everything to be equally OP, you could get balance, but it would be like everything is white or everything is black, all races symmetrical stats-- same unit just different graphics. Some games do this, and it is not as cool as having the kind of variety of units and abilities that you have here.

I recommend the following: rock, paper, scissors (or the enhanced version: rock, papers, scissors, lizard, spock). That game is very balanced. Why?
Everything is powerful against something, everything is weak against something. Every unit is overpowered, but every unit has a total counter.
Other examples of where this is done: Guild Wars, DOTA, and other similar pvp-oriented rpg (warrior beats rogue, rogue beats mage, mage beats warrior).

Right now, as some people say, there are some counters to mages, but maybe not as effective? I don't know enough to say yet. I'd like to learn about them.


I would offer the "rock, paper, scissor" game design philosophy for balance as an alternative to "making everything equal".

I'd love to hear the dev and community thoughts on this and I hope you can continue to make the game better for most of us! Keep up the good work.

Hi11Zone
01-30-2014, 08:09 PM
I'm keeping a close eye on chat on behalf of the Wizs. I think Wizards are working fine, but yes we are adjusting them as we go. Their is many counters. If you see they have a Wizard, kill it asap waste a unit if you have 2. But don't let them just kite your base with aoe spells. Run your units to the other side. We will have an article on counters and how to use Wizards for new and old players so we can re assure you how to kill and or play them :)

Dashgoor
01-31-2014, 01:22 AM
I stopped PVP currently because of Wizards. I think not, that 1 wizard with Lighningstorm is really a problem, but 6-8 of them are...

You make a group, cast with all of them at same time Lighntingstorm and watch how oppent just dies. Where is the strategy? Where is the fun? As the storm is following the target, you cant move out, and you dont see which unit was targeted.

Sure, you can tell me to find out really fast which unit was targeted and to move it out of the army, but normally the damage is already done. I saw multiple level 20 units dying, with 25000+ HP, in no time, and that after the nerf.

It seems that you only have to take more wizards with you now, but same effect.

The following storm is the only problem, once again, its NOT mainly the DPS of it.

Greetings

Zeikon
01-31-2014, 05:27 AM
the issue isnt meeting 1 wizard, the issue is an army of wizards obliterates your whole army in an instant, and thers nothing you can do about it, and dont say spread out, coes it does **** all.
its blatantly obviously overpowered as they are now, the only thing you can do against a wizard army is throw and army of dragons at them, that is the 1 and only counter.
if you just limit 1 of each wizard per army everything would be fixed.

rbfloat05
01-31-2014, 05:53 AM
the issue isnt meeting 1 wizard, the issue is an army of wizards obliterates your whole army in an instant, and thers nothing you can do about it, and dont say spread out, coes it does **** all.
its blatantly obviously overpowered as they are now, the only thing you can do against a wizard army is throw and army of dragons at them, that is the 1 and only counter.
if you just limit 1 of each wizard per army everything would be fixed.


Okay as far as so called "wizard army" just try it youself, it is not easy.

More wizards mean less soldiers to protect them making it even easier for you to kill them. try making a bunch of wizard, first mistake, first few soldiers to get through you have alot of dead wizard on your hand, an armies with alot of wizards have no support and quickly the wizards die and you will be losing hundereds of thousands of gold since wizards need to be high level to even cast many of their spells...


Not just dragons, heroes, soldiers, will all kill the wizard just fine, they are the lowest health squishy unit in game

Zeikon
01-31-2014, 07:55 AM
2 wizards of the calm = not 1 singel meele unit can ever toutch your mages
3 wizards of the deeps = 3x lightning storm, and army of lvl 20 units are dead in 1 cast
4 wizards of the deep = perma invulnerability, and with the regen you in actuallity only need 3 to do this.
wizard of the wave is only good against citys not open pvp so they are fine
and a lvl 40 wizard is easy to get.. so stop talking about those abysmall losses if you actually manage to get 1 killed.

so plz try it yourself so you actually know what your talking about.

Xavarion
01-31-2014, 12:12 PM
I have been on the receiving end of a wizard beat down, and also stood against and defeated them as well. There is nothing wrong with wizards.

The problem is they take people out of their comfort zones and that freaks folks out. Okay so you want to turtle up in your keep with standard troops, I want to crack that turtles shell and eat its meat. It's a pvp game with the option to not fight, so don't fight them.

So your pride keeps you from clicking "pay off", that is not the devs problem it's yours.

Fiinally for the devs, dragons have dragonslayers so wizards could have...wizardslayers. The whole mess resolved with a single unit.

Preferably a lone mounted warrior to run them down or a speed boost to a solo warrior type designed to kill wizards. High elemental resists with low s/b/p resist caps so it wouldn't be able to handle wizards but need to be escorted.

Then again this may be too silly, but so would nerfing the focus of the "Arcana" expansion. Arcana is referring to the arcane which in turn is magic which is used by...wizards. So you expanded and then beat the purpose of the expansion with the nerf bat?

I love this game so far, just work out the bugs then deal with the "That's not fair" crowd. Hell,one of the things that keep me playing is holding off Konstantin with opposing conventional armies. No magic at all and it was epic. I still wonder if it was "the" Konstantin or if it was him that he held back, but I digress.

In summation; leave wizards alone and/or make a wizard slayer. Great game, that is all.

ReCoder
02-04-2014, 04:16 PM
Hello distant,

Wizards are one of the primary topics that we are working very hard on to fix and restore balance to the game, we are very aware that they are currently very OP. They should be fixed very soon now.

gorgos96
02-04-2014, 06:16 PM
dude just please dont nerf the wizard so much that theyre useless. i think only thing you guys should do is to open a topic that shows people how to counter wizards and create a unit that is the main counter of wizards this could be an assasin or a mounted soldier that has resistance to fire cold and electric damage

ReCoder
02-04-2014, 07:21 PM
The devs are working on a strategy guide to combat wizards, and we have a lot of different suggestions on what we should do. This is a point that we're making one of our top priorities.

Rouke
02-05-2014, 07:17 AM
I have been on the receiving end of a wizard beat down, and also stood against and defeated them as well. There is nothing wrong with wizards.

The problem is they take people out of their comfort zones and that freaks folks out. Okay so you want to turtle up in your keep with standard troops, I want to crack that turtles shell and eat its meat. It's a pvp game with the option to not fight, so don't fight them.

So your pride keeps you from clicking "pay off", that is not the devs problem it's yours.

Fiinally for the devs, dragons have dragonslayers so wizards could have...wizardslayers. The whole mess resolved with a single unit.

Preferably a lone mounted warrior to run them down or a speed boost to a solo warrior type designed to kill wizards. High elemental resists with low s/b/p resist caps so it wouldn't be able to handle wizards but need to be escorted.

Then again this may be too silly, but so would nerfing the focus of the "Arcana" expansion. Arcana is referring to the arcane which in turn is magic which is used by...wizards. So you expanded and then beat the purpose of the expansion with the nerf bat?

I love this game so far, just work out the bugs then deal with the "That's not fair" crowd. Hell,one of the things that keep me playing is holding off Konstantin with opposing conventional armies. No magic at all and it was epic. I still wonder if it was "the" Konstantin or if it was him that he held back, but I digress.

In summation; leave wizards alone and/or make a wizard slayer. Great game, that is all.

You give that cav some sort of net that lets him snare and drag the wizard around and I feel like that would be amazing. Otherwise I would look into doing some other form of "anti" wizard unit.

A unit that could generate an anti-magic sphere would allow for players (on both sides) the opportunity to still participate in straight up medieval style fighting while working towards the obj of disabling the opponents spells/protection.

My other thought would be to add. . . A FOURTH WIZARD, and A FOURTH SPELL SCHOOOL. MUAAAHAHA. No seriously.

You add a fourth wizard and spell school (divine maybe? I heard the orcs and elves cast spells too. just as a thought for character skin) and this hero has AOE abilities mimicking the spells that current mages have access to. Instead of dropping a screen wide meteor/blizzard/lightning storm this hero stops any magic currently going on in the area or from occurring in the target area for an equal or SLIGHTLY shorter time than does the offensive spell. I would make them both equal though. This would also stop abilities like MASS HEAL, DOWNPOUR, ect.

Players who want to use magic to devastating effect should be allowed to do so, but should have to work for it. If a player wants to field an army which does not waste an army using magic it should still be their duty to defend against it, not just remove it from the game. Currently the defense for it are very limited though.

Magic should allow for some flashy, wrath of the deity sort of stuff happen; but only to the same effect as when I place 3 siege towers on a wall and rush it with goblins.

TL;DR In my opinion: Magic does not wreck you any worse currently than does a full army of spear men against your horsemen. The issue is that there is no means in which to field any other unit against the spear men currently.

Bogezzus
02-08-2014, 06:42 PM
So I'm currently still kinda new. Just been building up resources, crowns, and doing the campaign before I go and build any walls.

So how many lightning storms does it take to destroy a battalion?

AoE's are supposed to be weak since I believe the AoE concept is to distribute damage versus a single spell which is supposed to be high damage but only limited to a single unit.

Why not add spell resistance? Making even the lowest of the units take several said lightning storms or meteors before being killed, granted that doesn't change the whole army of wizards, which I honestly think should be limited one to an army and/or account, and essentially being able to only have a 3 at a time, taking up a 10 or so army spots each. (Which may be hard due to coding but you get my drift?)

Dependent on how powerful the high level wizards spells are, they may need a slight nerf, but adding magic/elemental resist would in my opinion be ideal. Possibly adding an extra skill point per level to add to that, or not ha. Either way I'd love to see something like that.

In my opinion wizards should be a weakener not a all out attacker, being able to weaken a force before engaging with your main melee and archer force. Kinda like artillery ha.

Wilffio
02-09-2014, 02:45 PM
1 lightning storm can Devastate an whole army ... :P

/Wolf