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Sharku
08-11-2007, 07:29 PM
What are your thoughts on creeps and what there purpose is in a game?

jap88
08-11-2007, 07:42 PM
Creeps? As in like creepy people? :p

Silent_Lamb
08-11-2007, 08:30 PM
Lol jap. I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of creepy people in the game.

If the heroes level then I can personally say I wouldn't want to see an abundance of creeps, that was one of the major problems with Warcraft3 multiplayer. Many people disliked the hero's because it became a, whoever rushes creeps fastest match. I think it can be done properly, and the MMO portion may be different due to the experience cap, but a handful of creeps would most likely be better than an army. And by army I mean the amount present in Warcraft 3 maps.

Bandits here, strong creatures there, it could be interesting, but then why not leave it to just your heroes experience combating enemy troops instead of wild wood land creatures or bandits. Still, as I said it could be done properly. I wouldn't mind it, but I also don't think creeps are all that necessary.

Joseph Visscher
08-11-2007, 11:09 PM
I believe creeps will be less of an enemy and more of a food source. Although hopefuly we will see some wild bears and other beasts;)

Darvin
08-11-2007, 11:34 PM
I tend to agree that creeps distrated from fighting the real enemy in warcraft III, which is why I don't think they should play a prominent role in DoF.

I don't think wild animals that aren't capable of defending themselves (or only capable on a very rudimentry fashion) really qualify as creeps in the sense we're talking about them, even if they may technically be implemented no differently. Because it's a warcraft III term, creeps usually refers to warcraft III styled creeps; monsters that populate the map which are primarily a source of unit and hero experience. The same principle was applied in BFME, and because the monsters kept coming back they were often "farmed" by heroes who just waited around for the next batch to spawn.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-12-2007, 11:20 AM
I tend to agree that creeps distrated from fighting the real enemy in warcraft III, which is why I don't think they should play a prominent role in DoF.

I don't think wild animals that aren't capable of defending themselves (or only capable on a very rudimentry fashion) really qualify as creeps in the sense we're talking about them, even if they may technically be implemented no differently. Because it's a warcraft III term, creeps usually refers to warcraft III styled creeps; monsters that populate the map which are primarily a source of unit and hero experience. The same principle was applied in BFME, and because the monsters kept coming back they were often "farmed" by heroes who just waited around for the next batch to spawn.

I think only large animals like bears or dangerous animals like wolves should be used for food. Not like a squirrel you see running through the woods. I mean in reality how long would that last a civilization? Lol it wouldn't even feed one guy! To me large animals for food is the way to go.

kingtom256
08-12-2007, 11:26 AM
I think tribes would be a good idea for creeps, haveing food and goldas a reward

Sharku
08-12-2007, 11:49 AM
My definition of creeps is some random units that are hostile to all that can be killed for exp/gold. If we see some of these guys wandering around the map i'd be very happy. I guess wild animals like deer, elf, and bear could be considered creeps also, but these shouldn't be so vicious and act more as a food source.

Also, it would be cool if there were some neutral creeps, like nomads, going around the map and you could trade resources or gold with them. This may solve the mercenary problem and add a new market to increase economic wealth.

jap88
08-12-2007, 11:58 AM
I think creeps are nice in the early game, for getting some experience, or a couple resources or whatever, however if they last too long creeps get kind of distracting from the main point of the game.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-12-2007, 02:51 PM
My definition of creeps is some random units that are hostile to all that can be killed for exp/gold. If we see some of these guys wandering around the map i'd be very happy. I guess wild animals like deer, elf, and bear could be considered creeps also, but these shouldn't be so vicious and act more as a food source.

Also, it would be cool if there were some neutral creeps, like nomads, going around the map and you could trade resources or gold with them. This may solve the mercenary problem and add a new market to increase economic wealth.

Wow I never thought of that. I really like that idea alot. I think the type of mad should determine the type of creeps you should get. Ex: ocean map. Creeps: pirates. That kind of thing would be cool because they would try to raid your ship but if you defeated them you would get alot of gold. Also depending on the creep to me should depend on the reward you should get. Ex: Pirates-gold, Wild men/hunters-food, mountain tribes (if they have some kind of mountain guys)-stone. That would be awesome.

Ryan Zelazny
08-14-2007, 10:21 PM
DoF will feature, "creeps". I think I mentioned this on the RTSC forums, but when we first started making DoF, we had a big emphasis on making it so you could really make anything with the editor you wanted, and we planned to include tons of extra creatures and units for people to be able to make any type of scenario they wanted.

In DoF, "creeps" will be like Sharku suggested, they are neutral units that will attack anyone. They will be varied in power, and volume of units. It could be a group of highway men that hijack your patrols, or ferocious beasts in the forest.

Silent_Lamb
08-14-2007, 11:10 PM
Now that makes me more excited for the map editor. But if it features creeps, then it features creeps . I find it very interesting that you would include plenty of unique and unused units, something I never thought of that will definitely make it easier for people who don't have a group of modelers helping to make their own unique scenarios. Will this include buildings and the like?

Darvin
08-15-2007, 12:21 AM
Glad to hear there will be tonnes of "unused" unit types ('course, I expect to see them put to good use in the campaign ^_^). That really opens up a wealth of possibilities to build on for mappers.

Will creeps just stand around statically, waiting for someone to cross paths with them, or will some move around and be dynamic?

The Witch King of Angmar
08-15-2007, 11:50 AM
Glad to hear there will be tonnes of "unused" unit types ('course, I expect to see them put to good use in the campaign ^_^). That really opens up a wealth of possibilities to build on for mappers.

Will creeps just stand around statically, waiting for someone to cross paths with them, or will some move around and be dynamic?

Well I think will be like BFME. That would be cool if they move around though.

jap88
08-16-2007, 07:25 PM
Well, in BFME they did move around a lot but only within a certain small, set radius. I would like to see creeps that freely wander the map...but not into people's bases prefably.

Darvin
08-16-2007, 11:16 PM
Intelligent opportunists which attack only when they find an easy target would be nice.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-17-2007, 07:44 AM
Intelligent opportunists which attack only when they find an easy target would be nice.

Yeah like a stray peasent or a farm that has little or no guard would be cool. I think creeps should be a pain in the rear to a player but yet not so big that he/she has to worry about them destroying everything they own.

Konstantin Fomenko
08-20-2007, 01:47 PM
What a great idea. We planned for simple creep AI similar to Battles for Middle Earth. The Idea of traveling creeps is definitely we`ll look into now. Perhaps even creeps which would strike player`s base and retreat to safety...

jap88
08-20-2007, 03:36 PM
Nothing too annoying however, no fun if the creeps practically destroy your army and your enemy just happens to come marching into your base.

kingtom256
08-20-2007, 03:43 PM
Wild Animals For Food Increase Like Wolves!!

The Witch King of Angmar
08-20-2007, 03:46 PM
Wild Animals For Food Increase Like Wolves!!

I'm sorry I didn't follow that.

kingtom256
08-20-2007, 03:49 PM
if there was creeps that roamed around without sticking to a lair, wolves would be a good option, aiding towards food resources

Konstantin Fomenko
08-21-2007, 11:52 AM
Talking about wolves. We jumped on the idea of more intelligent creeps, and one idea we came up with was this –Wolves hunting farm animals!

Human economy includes herding animals such as pigs, sheep and cows. And these animals generate more resources and fatten faster in they are herded some distance away from the city. We can create AI for groups of Wolves to come after such herds once in a while. Of-course, there is an issue how same wolves can harass other races, and how can we keep this from getting annoying/redundant, or too random to offset balance. *sigh*

We are still working on it, you guys have more ideas?

jap88
08-21-2007, 12:33 PM
Wolves would be a problem as it would put humans at a HUGE disadvantage in a game as their livestock woul be the only thing that is affected. However, how do the economies of each different faction work? If we could get that then possibly we could come up with some different creep ideas that could be thrown into maps to make it even.

I'd assume you could kill the wolves, i hate when units come from off-map. Perhaps to prevent randomness the wolves would come when the player reaches a certain number of livestock? It could also be a timer if preffered as well.

olauwers
08-21-2007, 12:44 PM
Well, I would say you could make herding people, who can fight such wolves. Of course, this is only a disadvantage for humans, but that's one of the risks of having livestock, isn't it? You could just as well go for the slower-fattening, harder-to-kill wild creeps, but if you choose for livestock, you have to take the consequences too.

And well, I'd say you just put herds of wolves in random places of the map, and they run around on the map, and if they come across a herd, they attack it.

And you could make these wolves attacking other racers by going after their food-gatherers outside of their cities, that go to get food of wild creeps. From the information I believe to have gathered, I think this would work expecially well on orcs, who are made for travelling, and of whcih armies can supply themselves of food whilst on the road. As for elves, I would need more information about their economics system... Dragons, I assume, will have to fly out and eat wild creeps. In that way, you could have the wolves attack the creeps that are edible by the dragons.

Darvin
08-21-2007, 01:37 PM
It would have to be fair (something that would target both players equally, preferably sticking away from main bases), but it would definitely be an interesting twist to have intelligent creeps that would leave their lairs to attack vulnerable player assets. As well, if people don't like it, they can pick maps that don't have such roaming enemies.

Sharku
08-21-2007, 07:43 PM
Or creeps that have to go out and hunt, like those wolves will occasionally go after a herd of deer or a pack of bandits will go gathering berries or something.

SvN
10-23-2007, 07:15 AM
sorry for the bump but this discussion is interesting;)

i read in the game features that time will change from day to night, so the wolves could leave their lairs in the night (as in reality) to find food, such as sheep, cattle (whatever the factions use to get food), so if you dont get your animals to safety in the evening it's a risk that wolves attack them.

the same with other creeps, like a pack of robbers, would kill/steal gold from latetime travellers.

the idea of move-around creeps is really good, those creep-lairs in the middle of a BFME map actually destroyed the realism and the look of a battle field.

with creeps running around in the DoF maps, it would also be great if the player could find their lairs/house somwhere in a forest or in the mountains to get the resources they've stolen.:cool:

The Witch King of Angmar
10-23-2007, 02:27 PM
with creeps running around in the DoF maps, it would also be great if the player could find their lairs/house somwhere in a forest or in the mountains to get the resources they've stolen.:cool:

Yeah that could be like in BFME wehn you bait a troll away from its lair and steal all the money from it. :D

Ryan Zelazny
10-23-2007, 04:18 PM
sorry for the bump but this discussion is interesting;)

i read in the game features that time will change from day to night, so the wolves could leave their lairs in the night (as in reality) to find food, such as sheep, cattle (whatever the factions use to get food), so if you dont get your animals to safety in the evening it's a risk that wolves attack them.

the same with other creeps, like a pack of robbers, would kill/steal gold from latetime travellers.

the idea of move-around creeps is really good, those creep-lairs in the middle of a BFME map actually destroyed the realism and the look of a battle field.

with creeps running around in the DoF maps, it would also be great if the player could find their lairs/house somwhere in a forest or in the mountains to get the resources they've stolen.:cool:


Definately a possibility SvN. Thanks for the input.

Puppeteer
10-25-2007, 11:53 AM
I'd like it if on some maps, like snow maps, packs of wolfs would have tracks across the map (invisble, save for footprints perhaps) that parade every now and then. Would be a nice feature.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-25-2007, 01:07 PM
I'd like it if on some maps, like snow maps, packs of wolfs would have tracks across the map (invisble, save for footprints perhaps) that parade every now and then. Would be a nice feature.

Why would they be invisible?

Puppeteer
10-26-2007, 01:17 PM
The tracks, there would be no line or signposts across the map xD Obviously the wolves are very much visible and mortal