PDA

View Full Version : map editor


kingtom256
08-07-2007, 10:38 AM
Will the map editor be availabe for xbox 360?

Joseph Visscher
08-07-2007, 10:49 AM
Welcome Kingtom,
I would think the Xbox version would not have any editor, but there will probibly be a way to download usermade maps if you have the internet connection to your X-box; I doubt it but then again maybe it will have an editor for X-box. :)

jap88
08-07-2007, 11:31 AM
It would be cool to see an editor for the 360 even if it is a little...complicated.

Darvin
08-07-2007, 12:55 PM
Most editors require the ability to type for practical reasons. Even if Reverie gets around that for most features, there's still the matter of scripting, and if my experience with Warcraft and Starcraft maps means anything, scripted maps are by far the most popular.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-07-2007, 04:17 PM
Most editors require the ability to type for practical reasons. Even if Reverie gets around that for most features, there's still the matter of scripting, and if my experience with Warcraft and Starcraft maps means anything, scripted maps are by far the most popular.

Are scripted maps maps with words? And another question, would the editor, if made, be available for the PC?

Thanks

Darvin
08-07-2007, 06:00 PM
It would be pretty shocking if the editor wasn't available for PC.

In my experience, very few games incorperate GUI scripting systems. Warcraft III and Starcraft are two games that have done it, but they're the only ones I'm aware of. In any case, even these games still required keyboard input for many scripting functions.

jap88
08-07-2007, 07:52 PM
It is possible to put in an in-game keyboard with the editor for scripting purposes on the 360, as i find most triggers don't require that much typing. You could also make it keyboard compatible, if thats possible, with the USB keyboards that you can plug in on the 360.

Konstantin Fomenko
08-07-2007, 10:27 PM
Good question!

Yes, Dawn of Fantasy will ship with a fully-developer- supported Editor (a feature rarely seen). We take utmost case and pride with our editor and can`t wait to share it`s power with future DoF players.

DoF editor, just like WC3 and SC editors fully support GUI scripting. We plan to add really easy to use trigger system as well.

And as far as Editor for Xbox goes, it`s possible to make one, but list of limitation would just be waaay too large and controls too clumsy. However, we do hope to be able to offer our Xbox players easy access to maps made by PC players.

Silent_Lamb
08-07-2007, 10:49 PM
Good question!

Yes, Dawn of Fantasy will ship with a fully-developer- supported Editor (a feature rarely seen). We take utmost case and pride with our editor and can`t wait to share it`s power with future DoF players.

DoF editor, just like WC3 and SC editors fully support GUI scripting. We plan to add really easy to use trigger system as well.

And as far as Editor for Xbox goes, it`s possible to make one, but list of limitation would just be waaay too large and controls too clumsy. However, we do hope to be able to offer our Xbox players easy access to maps made by PC players.

I actually find it very reassuring for the xbox 360 players that they will have access to the PC made maps.

Timeshifters managed to do it with minor triggers and map making, although it was horribly done on there part and badly limited. I think it could still be done, but as you said the limitations would be too large to even bother.

jap88
08-08-2007, 07:49 AM
Would the editor be a seperate program from the actual game? That way Xbox 360 players could get the map editor on their comps and make maps without having to buy the full game on both the 360 and PC.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-08-2007, 08:28 AM
Would the editor be a seperate program from the actual game? That way Xbox 360 players could get the map editor on their comps and make maps without having to buy the full game on both the 360 and PC.

No I think the editor is in with the game.

Ryan Zelazny
08-08-2007, 08:33 AM
The editor and the game are separate programs. We haven't decided if we will couple a PC editor disc with the Xbox 360 version or not. The Editor has the same hardware requirements as the game, so I don't know if it would be a worthwhile thing to do, as most people buying it for the 360 might not have the computer to run it anyway.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-08-2007, 01:29 PM
The editor and the game are separate programs. We haven't decided if we will couple a PC editor disc with the Xbox 360 version or not. The Editor has the same hardware requirements as the game, so I don't know if it would be a worthwhile thing to do, as most people buying it for the 360 might not have the computer to run it anyway.

Yeah good point. Is there a way you could incorporate the editor into the game? And also would the editor disc come with the game or would you have to purchase this seperatly?

Thanks

Silent_Lamb
08-08-2007, 02:12 PM
Editors are usually free. I think if they were going to do it they'd let you download it off of xbox live marketplace.

Ryan Zelazny
08-08-2007, 07:24 PM
Editor will come for free with the PC version. We might allow a Download of the Editor for Xbox 360 owners if they provide a serial # or CD-Key, that could work.

jap88
08-08-2007, 08:42 PM
So i'd assume that such a serial number would come on the manual or something like that in the 360 version to allow for that Download?

Ryan Zelazny
08-09-2007, 07:52 AM
Perhaps, we'll have more answers closer to the release.

The editor will stay a separate program Witch King.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-09-2007, 12:20 PM
Perhaps, we'll have more answers closer to the release.

The editor will stay a separate program Witch King.

Ok. At least I won't have to pay for it. :p

Darvin
08-09-2007, 01:12 PM
I do agree with the issue for xbox players; chances are they will be using the xbox in the first place because their PC can't run the editor. However, I do think allowing a stand-alone editor download for the PC would be acceptable, so those who are interested in trying out the editor for their xbox version could do so.

As far as CD-keys go, I only have one thing to say: put it in the manual! It's SO easy to lose cd-keys, but if they're printed inside the manual that's not an issue.

It's nice to hear there will be a GUI scripting option, and if it's of the same caliber as the warcraft III scripting system, we're all in for a real treat. Although they're rare, well done GUI scripting systems are extremely approachable, and enable a wealth of possibilities and creativity.

Oh, and if you do a beta, it would be nice if you include the map editor. In addition to a wonderful testing opportunity, it will create a wealth of fan content before the game releases.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-09-2007, 01:47 PM
I do agree with the issue for xbox players; chances are they will be using the xbox in the first place because their PC can't run the editor. However, I do think allowing a stand-alone editor download for the PC would be acceptable, so those who are interested in trying out the editor for their xbox version could do so.

As far as CD-keys go, I only have one thing to say: put it in the manual! It's SO easy to lose cd-keys, but if they're printed inside the manual that's not an issue.

It's nice to hear there will be a GUI scripting option, and if it's of the same caliber as the warcraft III scripting system, we're all in for a real treat. Although they're rare, well done GUI scripting systems are extremely approachable, and enable a wealth of possibilities and creativity.

Oh, and if you do a beta, it would be nice if you include the map editor. In addition to a wonderful testing opportunity, it will create a wealth of fan content before the game releases.


Yeah I'm not good with mapping I do think it would be fun to play around with. And Darvin, when you said CD-keys what did you mean? Like the specs to run the game? Sorry I'm not very technical with this kind of stuff.

Thanks

Darvin
08-10-2007, 02:30 PM
CD-keys are those little codes that come with a game that you need to enter during installation. It's one of the more ancient anti-piracy measures.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-10-2007, 04:19 PM
CD-keys are those little codes that come with a game that you need to enter during installation. It's one of the more ancient anti-piracy measures.

Oh yeah. I hate when I lose those because I'm running all over my house trying to find them.

kingtom256
08-11-2007, 01:27 PM
Will this editor be on a different CD, or will it be download?
If it is a download, will it cost a certain amount of microsoft points?

Joseph Visscher
08-11-2007, 10:58 PM
Will this editor be on a different CD, or will it be download?
If it is a download, will it cost a certain amount of microsoft points?

Not full sure, but I believe the editor should come with the game, when the game is installed so is the editor. when you have the game installed you can start making maps right away! :) lol But I think I would rather play the game after this is all over.

Darvin
08-11-2007, 11:28 PM
Even I don't open the editor before I open the game. It's kind of like reading the Encyclopedia of Arda before reading Lord of the Rings. Sure, you'll probably be able to handle it, but it's just the wrong order to do things.

Having the editor install with the game is definitely the right way to do it. It's the simplest and most accessible way to do things.

As for me, I usually start playing around with the editor once I'm comfortable with the game mechanics and the way the game works in general, which takes a little under a week.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-12-2007, 11:21 AM
Even I don't open the editor before I open the game. It's kind of like reading the Encyclopedia of Arda before reading Lord of the Rings. Sure, you'll probably be able to handle it, but it's just the wrong order to do things.

Having the editor install with the game is definitely the right way to do it. It's the simplest and most accessible way to do things.

As for me, I usually start playing around with the editor once I'm comfortable with the game mechanics and the way the game works in general, which takes a little under a week.

Yeah I just hope the editor isn't to complicated because I would like to learn more about mapping.

jap88
08-12-2007, 11:59 AM
Mapping isn't hard, it's the triggering that gets you.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-12-2007, 02:46 PM
Mapping isn't hard, it's the triggering that gets you.

Triggering?

jap88
08-12-2007, 06:28 PM
With triggers...

Darvin
08-12-2007, 11:30 PM
Triggering is scripting. A scripted event might be receiving reinforcements when you destroy an enemy base. This is a "scripted" event. Because scripting (or triggering, as they are sometimes called) systems are inherently complex, they have by far the steepest learning curve.

jap88
08-13-2007, 07:18 AM
Thank you Darvin, i wasn't exactly sure how to explain it.

kingtom256
08-13-2007, 07:30 AM
I would imagine it being limited, but the scripts would probably be catagorized into certain aspects. Nothing too difficult

By the way, scripting will be easier as soon as the new mini-keyboard is released for xbox 360

The Witch King of Angmar
08-13-2007, 10:00 AM
I would imagine it being limited, but the scripts would probably be catagorized into certain aspects. Nothing too difficult

By the way, scripting will be easier as soon as the new mini-keyboard is released for xbox 360

I hope so. I would figure if gameplay was easy to learn scripting must be easier to do.

Darvin
08-13-2007, 05:23 PM
I would imagine it being limited, but the scripts would probably be catagorized into certain aspects. Nothing too difficult

That's what warcraft III did, and it ended up with over a thousand of these "categories" (or rather, functions). Moreover, they could be combined in countless ways. For instance, "create a unit" function (sounds simple, eh?) requires certain parameters; it needs to know where you want to create the unit, what type of unit, and who the unit should belong to. These are called "parameters", and parameters themselves could be functions (for instance, if I'm creating a "boss" enemy that spawns units around itself, the position of the unit isn't static; it must be based on the position of the boss). These parameter functions themselves take parameters, which may be functions. What you end up with could be rather complex at the end of the day.

To give you an idea, this is some Jass code I wrote in the warcraft III editor. It might be difficult for you to follow, but what I will tell you is that the effect of this trigger is that any time any paladin casts a spell, he gains 15 hit points per level he has invested in devotion aura.


//================================================== =========================
function InitTrig_Devotion takes nothing returns nothing
set gg_trg_Devotion = CreateTrigger( )
call TriggerRegisterAnyUnitEventBJ( gg_trg_Devotion, EVENT_PLAYER_UNIT_SPELL_EFFECT )
call TriggerAddCondition( gg_trg_Devotion, Condition( function Trig_devotion_Conditions ) )
call TriggerAddAction( gg_trg_Devotion, function Trig_devotion_Actions )
endfunction

function Trig_devotion_Conditions takes nothing returns boolean
if ( not ( 'H000' == GetUnitTypeId(GetSpellAbilityUnit()) ) ) then
return false
endif
return true
endfunction

function Trig_devotion_Actions takes nothing returns nothing
local unit caster = GetSpellAbilityUnit()
local real healed = ( I2R(GetUnitAbilityLevelSwapped('A00L', caster)) * 15.00 )
call SetUnitLifeBJ( caster, ( GetUnitStateSwap(UNIT_STATE_LIFE, caster) + healed ) )
set caster = null
endfunction

The Witch King of Angmar
08-14-2007, 12:35 PM
Well Darvin I kind of understand what that looks like as I have in school done a little bit of scripting in creating a website.

Darvin
08-14-2007, 03:47 PM
Programming languages are logical, which is why if you know one, others start to look somewhat familiar.

kingtom256
08-14-2007, 04:04 PM
I understand some of it, i use to do a little messing with CAH on bfme 2

The Witch King of Angmar
08-14-2007, 08:23 PM
Programming languages are logical, which is why if you know one, others start to look somewhat familiar.

I mean I understand what it means and how it's set up but I don't understand some of the codes and what those do.

Darvin
08-15-2007, 12:17 AM
//================================================== =========================
function InitTrig_Devotion takes nothing returns nothing
set gg_trg_Devotion = CreateTrigger( )
call TriggerRegisterAnyUnitEventBJ( gg_trg_Devotion, EVENT_PLAYER_UNIT_SPELL_EFFECT )
call TriggerAddCondition( gg_trg_Devotion, Condition( function Trig_devotion_Conditions ) )
call TriggerAddAction( gg_trg_Devotion, function Trig_devotion_Actions )
endfunction


This is the trigger definition. It runs when the map is initialized and sets up the trigger. gg_trg_Devotion is a global variable which extends handle (it's closest to a "reference" for you guys with Java experience, or a "pointer" for you guys with C++ experience), and it is instantiated as a new trigger.

The second line is a function that adds a "register event" to the trigger. It takes as parameter the trigger variable and the type of event. In this case, it causes the trigger to execute whenever any unit casts a spell.

The next line adds a condition to the trigger. The condition is itself a function which returns a boolean. If it returns true, the trigger goes ahead, if it returns false, the trigger does not go ahead. The condition is checked every time the "event" happens.

The final line adds an "action" to the trigger, something that happens when the event happens and the condition is satisfied. The majority of the code (naturally) ends up in the action.



function Trig_devotion_Conditions takes nothing returns boolean
if ( not ( 'H000' == GetUnitTypeId(GetSpellAbilityUnit()) ) ) then
return false
endif
return true
endfunction

This is a function which returns a boolean (true or false). It is the function that was defined as the condition for the trigger. 'H000' is the unit-type ID of the custom "paladin" type hero I created for my map. GetSpellAbilityUnit() is a useful trigger that returns a reference to the unit which casted the spell which caused the trigger to execute. If it's unit-type ID is equal to 'H000' (that is, it's a paladin), then the condition is satisfied. This function was created through an automatic generation process, and as a result it uses negative logic (that is, if the unit is NOT a paladin, return false; rather than if the unit IS a paladin, return true). I usually have the editor generate a skeletal trigger for me, and then I work around it; in this case, the condition was so trivial I didn't need to touch the code it generated.


function Trig_devotion_Actions takes nothing returns nothing
local unit caster = GetSpellAbilityUnit()
local real healed = ( I2R(GetUnitAbilityLevelSwapped('A00L', caster)) * 15.00 )
call SetUnitLifeBJ( caster, ( GetUnitStateSwap(UNIT_STATE_LIFE, caster) + healed ) )
set caster = null
endfunction


This is the actual trigger itself; what happens when the conditions are satisfied. The first two lines declare local variables. They aren't actually needed, they just exist to make the code more readable (in actuality, the only reason why I used Jass here rather than GUI was to make modifying the trigger easier, since changing the amount of health it healed would be an important balance consideration).

"Caster" is literally the unit that casted the spell that triggered the script. The real (that is, a decimal value) healed is the amount that unit can expect to be healed. "GetUnitAbilityLevelSwapped" is a weird function name. It takes as parameters an ability type and a unit reference. In this case, the ability type is 'A00L', which is the code for my custom devotion aura. I2R is an explicit conversion of an integer to a real (Jass does not permit implicit conversions). The result is that the amount the caster can expect to be healed is 15 times the number of levels he has invested in the devotion aura skill. A paladin with level 3 devotion aura gains 45 hit points every time he casts a spell; a nifty bonus.

Unfortunately, there is no "add health to unit" function, so I have to use "SetUnitLifeBJ" instead. I set the caster's health to his current health plus the value of "healed". GetUnitStateSwap(UNIT_STATE_LIFE, caster) returns the caster's current health, which then has the value of "healed" added to it, and his health is set to this new value (overflow over his maximum health isn't an issue with the "SetUnitLifeBJ" function).

The final line is necessary due to an oversight in the map editor's scripting system. It unfortunately has an issue any time we create local variables extending "handle" (which is anything that's not a real, integer, boolean, or string...). By explicitly setting the variable to "null", it is flagged to be dereferenced when it goes out of scope. If I didn't set it to "null", it would never be dereferenced; a memory leak.

That should be understandable to anyone with half a brain ^_^

The Witch King of Angmar
08-15-2007, 11:53 AM
So basically one code is setup based off a trigger for a certain action to be done.

Darvin
08-15-2007, 12:02 PM
Triggers (or scripts) in warcraft III have events, conditions, and actions. An "event" is something generic, like whenever a unit casts a spell, or whenever a unit is attacked. Whenever the event occurs, the condition is checked. If the condition is satisfied, then the actions are run.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-15-2007, 05:11 PM
Triggers (or scripts) in warcraft III have events, conditions, and actions. An "event" is something generic, like whenever a unit casts a spell, or whenever a unit is attacked. Whenever the event occurs, the condition is checked. If the condition is satisfied, then the actions are run.

Ok I understand it now. If I would do this once or twice I would understand it better though.

kingtom256
08-15-2007, 05:27 PM
i understand some of it, i created some codes for bfme 2 cah, infact i almost made my own cah lol:p , a half troll

The Witch King of Angmar
08-15-2007, 06:41 PM
i understand some of it, i created some codes for bfme 2 cah, infact i almost made my own cah lol:p , a half troll

Nice how did it work out?

kingtom256
08-16-2007, 05:50 AM
Less bugs than i expected, but one of the bugs was the powers, he head the heal power available, but i mean the one in the power menu, i tried as much as i could to get it to work, but it didnt, i abandoned that idea. He has nearly all the same powers as a hill troll, as well as some evil men powers. He also had splash damage

The Witch King of Angmar
08-16-2007, 10:36 AM
Less bugs than i expected, but one of the bugs was the powers, he head the heal power available, but i mean the one in the power menu, i tried as much as i could to get it to work, but it didnt, i abandoned that idea. He has nearly all the same powers as a hill troll, as well as some evil men powers. He also had splash damage

Sweet sounds pretty cool.

Ryan Zelazny
08-16-2007, 05:56 PM
The editor will feature an extensive trigger system, but I will allow one of the scenario designers to elaborate more on it, as I'm not too familiar with it, myself.

jap88
08-16-2007, 07:21 PM
Hmm, i don't do triggering nearly as complex as the stuff Darvin is talking about :p There's always more to learn i guess.

Can't wait to hear more about it from some of the SD guys :cool:

Darvin
08-16-2007, 11:15 PM
There were two ways to script in Warcraft III; Jass or GUI. What I was showing you was Jass. The GUI system isn't nearly as powerful as Jass, but it's much easier to learn to use.

For those of you out of the lingo, "GUI" stands for graphical user interface. Instead of having to type out code, you would select the code you want from a drop-down menu, and fill in the blanks (for instance "create a unit" requires you to specify [among other things] the type of unit to be created). This isn't as easy as it may appear, as there are literally hundreds of options available, and figuring out which one is the right one for your situation isn't always easy.

Doug Bonds
08-16-2007, 11:43 PM
As of right now, we are "scripting" the conditions and effects as very well described by Darvin. It is our intention to release the editor with the exact same scripting tools that we use now in addition to a "Trigger" system which will be the drop-down, selectable Conditions and Effects. If any of you have done any design for or have seen the Age of Empires series editors, you will be very familiar with how there is a trigger tool and a scripting tool. My feeling, is that this will be beneficial to advanced designers (using scripts mostly) and newer designers (using Triggers mostly) alike.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-17-2007, 07:43 AM
As of right now, we are "scripting" the conditions and effects as very well described by Darvin. It is our intention to release the editor with the exact same scripting tools that we use now in addition to a "Trigger" system which will be the drop-down, selectable Conditions and Effects. If any of you have done any design for or have seen the Age of Empires series editors, you will be very familiar with how there is a trigger tool and a scripting tool. My feeling, is that this will be beneficial to advanced designers (using scripts mostly) and newer designers (using Triggers mostly) alike.

Ok cool. I am looking forward to playing around with the editor and seeing what I can learn.

SPARROW94
08-18-2007, 08:07 PM
there probaly be an disadvantige for this idea people might just make a map just to there own stradegy so theyll have the advatages

Darvin
08-19-2007, 01:55 PM
What Blizzard did was have an icon that went beside a matter. There were two types of maps: "melee" and "scenario". In melee maps, there are no scripted events, and all unit stats are set to the default. In scenario maps, something "customized" is specified. If you see a regular battle being played on a map that has the scenario icon, you know that something is up.

The Witch King of Angmar
08-19-2007, 04:49 PM
What Blizzard did was have an icon that went beside a matter. There were two types of maps: "melee" and "scenario". In melee maps, there are no scripted events, and all unit stats are set to the default. In scenario maps, something "customized" is specified. If you see a regular battle being played on a map that has the scenario icon, you know that something is up.

Cool. I think you should have to send in the map into Reverie to check it out and make it ok to play.

Darvin
08-20-2007, 01:34 PM
I think you should have to send in the map into Reverie to check it out and make it ok to play.

Way too much management for Reverie; there could be tens of thousands of maps, each with multiple versions (this is a conservative estimate), and there is simply no way that any company can have the manpower to do that. Better to have an automatic process to take care of it, and no "send it in for approval" nonsense.

kingtom256
08-20-2007, 03:33 PM
i thought this is going to become on ma........ oh no, if it is one big map, oh, is the one big map idea only for campaign?

The Witch King of Angmar
08-20-2007, 03:50 PM
Way too much management for Reverie; there could be tens of thousands of maps, each with multiple versions (this is a conservative estimate), and there is simply no way that any company can have the manpower to do that. Better to have an automatic process to take care of it, and no "send it in for approval" nonsense.

Thta's sort of what I meant but I didn't think of it being automated.

Alex Walz
06-02-2009, 03:01 PM
Didn't we ban this psycho bot? :rolleyes:

Wizaerd
06-02-2009, 04:22 PM
As of right now, we are "scripting" the conditions and effects as very well described by Darvin. It is our intention to release the editor with the exact same scripting tools that we use now in addition to a "Trigger" system which will be the drop-down, selectable Conditions and Effects. If any of you have done any design for or have seen the Age of Empires series editors, you will be very familiar with how there is a trigger tool and a scripting tool. My feeling, is that this will be beneficial to advanced designers (using scripts mostly) and newer designers (using Triggers mostly) alike.

Yikes... I played with the WCIII editor, and absolutely loved using it. Very user friendly, very organized, and extremely powerful. However, the editors for Age of Mythology and Age of Empires III, while powerful, just was not organized very well at all, in fact they pretty much had zero organization. I didn;t find them particularly user friendly or easy to use either.

I sincerely hope the DoF editors are much much better than the ones for AoM and AoE3...

Grizzlez
06-03-2009, 10:30 AM
Possibly have trusted players test maps and approve them for download. OR you could have a user rated system and any map with a bad rating is removed.

MagicOPromotion
06-03-2009, 12:19 PM
the map editor must be in the main EL directory. The objects, and maps which you try to open, must be in their respective directories as wellfrom when you installed EL. If they are in other folders, it will close.

LiTos456
06-20-2009, 10:09 AM
this one is the xbox 360 one.

Asatru
06-24-2009, 06:54 AM
The system bungie use is pretty good if you ask me for sharing maps on xbox.
Mabye thats a idea worth looking into?

adamater
06-26-2009, 09:27 AM
it would be nice for the x360 to have an editor. it would add more variety to the game.

Bourne
12-05-2010, 12:41 AM
I wonder if there is a way to have a seperate editor on the pc for the xbox, and then upload/download maps to your xbox?....wishes :/