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Barudar
06-22-2013, 04:21 PM
I honestly don't think I have EVER seen more imbalance in strategies... Fire over anything seems to be just a complete fricking joke. It annihilates EVERYTHING and with how STUPIDLY slow your units move, combined with the ridiculous amount of lag, there's not a god damn thing you can do. Stupid overpowered long ranged units like catapults also destroy any reason for me to even try to keep playing this game. Such trash, and a waste of my money.... BG

GPS51
06-22-2013, 04:29 PM
I take it you haven't tried putting out fire? Or spread formations? Both are VERY useful against fire. All villagers put out fire, each race has different ideas on how to put out fire.

Hi11Zone
06-22-2013, 04:34 PM
Like GPS said, villagers are a must, and if you wan't to avoid places that spread fire fast and you like to pvp , try open plains with less grass and tress to burn, makes it a lot easier. I do however understand where your coming from we are looking into how strong fire is. Some times units lag when u move them , and I have great news next week 6+new units which should help tide the battle as well as path-finding over haul. Which should make the entire game run better in every aspect. Also be sure to max out agility so arrows do almost no damage, I always do this no matter what build when pvping.

Barudar
06-22-2013, 04:44 PM
peasants are some of the slowest moving units i've seen so far.. and the fire destroys your units in seconds, I don't see that even being possible. I was in spread formation when this was used on me. Had no effect at all that I could see >.> Also, do the level of your units make no effect on the strength of your army or something? That's what it feels like. devs...I loved this game soo much and was even more excited for the pvp...then i saw it play out -.-

comedychris
06-23-2013, 01:40 AM
ok i can see where you are coming from, fires are deadly, but is that not realistic? fire arrows do less acc per shot so its not overpowered and range units arnt overpowered at all, if you max our Armour against them depending on the unit you can get 75-80% reduction on damage so the merely a bug not a threat, about the speed, have you actually been upgrading speed and movement/ sprint speed? because if you have then there pretty fast when told to rush, and if not then thats your fault.. i think worst pvp in in 2013 "6 months" is a massive over exaggeration alone but worst pvp ever.... excessive doesnt cut it.. :D its got bugs as have most game but devs are cool hard working and care about the game "thats rare" also, theres new patches, updates and released every week or so so.. wait a while balances will come and a game tht you liked might be a game you love after 2 months of being worked on, dont dismiss an entire part of the game based on a little trial of a product not yet fully finished and completed, thanks for listening to me ramble i appreciate it :D have fun and take care. :D

maddbomber83
06-23-2013, 12:33 PM
Just another rock paper scissors. If you are frustrated using peasants as your support units then try the orcs or elves. They have 'peasants' that can fight a little and are easier to get upgrades for.

An example is the elves female warden. She has a bow (thus can level up easier than a weak melee unit). Then you can upgrade her speed. She has the ability to call in a downpour that will put out fires and she can loot for you.

I'm in Love. Marauders on the other hand.... not so much love there.


Make 3 cities, one of each race. Play around with them for a while until you find one the suits your flavor.

Also, make lists and post them. PVP sucks and here is why

Fire is too powerful
Peasants can not reasonably be used to put out fires as they are too slow and difficult to level up.
Units move slowly making it mandatory that you spend points in speed. This lowers the diversity of your units.


The devs have been great to respond to things, now to see how the patch notes look.

Barudar
06-25-2013, 01:04 AM
At this point with how much I've played.. I don't like pvp or hell, even the combat system hardly at all. sooo slow and SOOO clunky, holy CRAP! Putting your melee units on aggressive stance typically does nothing.. they still just sit there watching.. dafuq. The game just feels insanely unbalanced and terribly fun-sapping. I loved building my town but eventually I realized you can't even make walls how you want them.. Everyone has the same walls and there's no fun customization... Such a let down

Superior
06-25-2013, 03:03 AM
they only charge when enemy is close......

in hold ground they dont charge even if the enemy is close...........


READ

vicious666
06-25-2013, 05:09 PM
Hi, i need specific informations, FIRE IS OP is not an information i can work thrue.

Fire is op, ok what fire? the fire that spread on ground? the fireball? the firewall? the fire from siege weapons? the fire from archers? the fire from firecart? the fire from new siege weapons?

Also what level are your units, what units you where using, and how you skilled them, (skill point assignment hp dmg res regen etc)
my lev 20 knights can run into the fire for a bit heaing themself and having over 2k hp each soldier and over 30khp for the overall batallion.

I have over 500 pvp game and tbh i rarely remember losing an entire batallion to fire, even when while hammering a gate my units where totally inside boiled oil

Hi11Zone
06-25-2013, 05:47 PM
Yes what vicious666 said, the more information the better, so we can get an a better understanding.

Zoris
06-26-2013, 11:38 AM
I do notice that wildfire gets to troops quick. When running level 10-15 soldiers they certainly dissipate quickly. This fire was originally created by arrows.

I think the new path finding patch will lift a lot from this issue.

vicious666
06-28-2013, 05:04 AM
i am going to check how much dmg does fire that spread on ground

Saan
06-29-2013, 05:45 AM
Also found wildfire far from realistic. Seen one time fire spread out in desert over ground for a half of screen. Only building/tree should burn and spread out if they are close, not wildfire in open space, especially in desert.
For me its my main tactic in taking npc towns - few fireballs from dragon = the whole town on fire. No matter how many defenders inside, all will burn. Wait 2 min - send ogres and finish survivors.
Wildfire is like a nuke, unless your opponent has lvl 20 units of right spec.

R-A-B
06-29-2013, 09:18 AM
Sorry, worst pvp experience ever goes to Gettysburg: Armored Warfare.

philo5080
06-29-2013, 11:56 AM
I have to agree. You can't even get to any of the in game quests without immediately being attacked when the "protection" timer runs out (I have to wonder about a company that will sell you protection from it's players on ithe online store...). The imbalance between the two armies has always been ridiculous in my experience, and it's always the same MO, two or more dragons, run up, set everything on fire, and run away. Repeat, repeat, repeat......there's no combat in this game's PVP, just the use of fire.

Hi11Zone
06-30-2013, 02:06 PM
We are balancing the fire as we speak, and will work on this.

kbs666
07-02-2013, 04:24 PM
I have to agree. You can't even get to any of the in game quests without immediately being attacked when the "protection" timer runs out (I have to wonder about a company that will sell you protection from it's players on ithe online store...). The imbalance between the two armies has always been ridiculous in my experience, and it's always the same MO, two or more dragons, run up, set everything on fire, and run away. Repeat, repeat, repeat......there's no combat in this game's PVP, just the use of fire.

Not sure how this point system works but I just had my first experience with this games PvP. The screen said I was slightly stronger so I went ahead and fought rather than pay the guy off. I never had a chance. His units seemed immune to my attacks. My army was mostly mid teens foot knights and his were some orc unit all seemingly at lvl 10 or below and he had a lot more units than I did. Neither of us used fire. I lost every unit except 3 knights and my hero. He seemed completely unaffected.

An even fight without some tactical issue should not be an utter defeat for one side.

theinternetman
07-02-2013, 07:18 PM
An even fight without some tactical issue should not be an utter defeat for one side.

When you're completely new to the game and have no clue how to properly build and army and command your troops your matches are likely to end in utter defeat.

On the upside as you play the game more you'll find that creating new armies becomes rather trivial and so you can practice different strategies and army compositions. By having a large amount of resource production can you churn out armies quickly, and level up them additionally at towns with training centers for a gold fee. If you have level 5 unit recruiting buildings it's very trivial to produce 300-500 point armies to practice with. A lot of DoF's PvP comes down to resistances and quickly re-skilling your troops many times during the battle as the situation calls for it, which makes paying attention to the stats on your opponents units very important.

kbs666
07-02-2013, 08:05 PM
When you're completely new to the game and have no clue how to properly build and army and command your troops your matches are likely to end in utter defeat.

On the upside as you play the game more you'll find that creating new armies becomes rather trivial and so you can practice different strategies and army compositions. By having a large amount of resource production can you churn out armies quickly, and level up them additionally at towns with training centers for a gold fee. If you have level 5 unit recruiting buildings it's very trivial to produce 300-500 point armies to practice with. A lot of DoF's PvP comes down to resistances and quickly re-skilling your troops many times during the battle as the situation calls for it, which makes paying attention to the stats on your opponents units very important.

You're kidding right? Why exactly would I, or anyone, waste that much free time on a game that lies to us? If the relative point values don't mean anything then it shouldn't be there.

If my army composition was that utterly useless, all my knights had maxed out their armor resists BTW (I not being a complete moron), then the point comparison should not have been within a few points.

Finally controlling units during the battle and reskilling them? I was barely able to get my units formations set and from some sort of battle line. He just came at me as a horde. He used no visible tactic except his units were simply far superior to mine despite the point value and his units being uniformly lower level.

I'll wait for this next patch that keeps being promised as a fix to everything. Then if these problems are not greatly improved I'll write it off as money lost and delete the game.

R-A-B
07-03-2013, 05:51 PM
You're kidding right? Why exactly would I, or anyone, waste that much free time on a game that lies to us? If the relative point values don't mean anything then it shouldn't be there.

If my army composition was that utterly useless, all my knights had maxed out their armor resists BTW (I not being a complete moron), then the point comparison should not have been within a few points.

Finally controlling units during the battle and reskilling them? I was barely able to get my units formations set and from some sort of battle line. He just came at me as a horde. He used no visible tactic except his units were simply far superior to mine despite the point value and his units being uniformly lower level.

I'll wait for this next patch that keeps being promised as a fix to everything. Then if these problems are not greatly improved I'll write it off as money lost and delete the game.

Orcs have abilities and formations greatly increasing there abilities and making them nard as hell, downside is it drains stamina, whereas a footsoldier can stay in peak efficency pretty much indefinitely.
I'd also point out I believe upgrades to armour,weapons and formations etc do NOT add to army strength, so having them researched can provide a considerable advantage.

In short the game has a fairly poor tooltips for explanations. If you can get over that, then also start experimenting and finding those liitle tricks to unit compositions I fidn it highly rewarding. I hope you stay around a little longer and get a grip on the mechanics to enable a far more enjoyable experience.

theinternetman
07-04-2013, 08:03 AM
Finally controlling units during the battle and reskilling them? I was barely able to get my units formations set and from some sort of battle line. He just came at me as a horde. He used no visible tactic except his units were simply far superior to mine despite the point value and his units being uniformly lower level.


It's not the game's fault your APM is slow enough that you can't set unit group hotkeys, abilities, and formations before your opponent trudges across the entire battlefield which takes a decent amount of time. DoF isn't Total War, yes you need to spend some time learning the mechanics of a PvP game. Did you even record the battle to watch it again to see your mistakes? Also unit level isn't an automatic I-WIN button nor should it ever be. Making a good army composition and micro is far more important than having the higher level and that's a good thing. It's good that players who want to rely on brute strength of levels get trounced. The way DoF pathfinding works the player with less units can split their army into smaller hotkey groups and micro far faster than the player with the large army because it takes far less time to calculate movement for smaller unit groups in DoF.

Clearly you're upset because you got beat in a game by a player who had far more experience or a far better army composition and you want to blame the game above all else. If you had some legitimate complaint about the game mechanics I'd be 100% behind you but so far you're complaining that army scores aren't calculated properly because someone used a greater mass of lower level units to beat your smaller mass of high level units and beat you.

You can have a group of level 20 knights with 90% pierce resistance in anvil formation but my gigantic mass of low level archers will still do 125 fire damage per arrow per hit and be able to easily run away from your knights and keep firing at them. Knights do not have any fire resistance so that's an example of why army diversification is important and levels aren't the end-all-be-all, which is again, a good game mechanic.

I'm not saying DoF PvP is problem free because it's far from it, but you do a disservice to the game and its players by not posting constructive feedback with specific examples, with proof (math) to back up your requests for changes to existing game mechanics. In other words, you're just moaning you got beat instead of trying to analyze the specific mechanics and matchups that took place precipitating in your defeat.


If my army composition was that utterly useless, all my knights had maxed out their armor resists BTW (I not being a complete moron), then the point comparison should not have been within a few points.

The game isn't responsible to hold your hand and tell you that you made a bad army composition. It just looks at the stats of your units and slaps out a score, just like Warhammer. You can spend hundreds of dollars on the best Magic The Gathering deck ever and you could still lose every match because you didn't know how the cards worked together or how to use them. Krell Lord of the Undeath in Warhammer is like 250 points or something insane like that but that doesn't mean he won't get roasted in 2 seconds if you don't build your army around having Krell Lord of The Undeath in it and use him carefully.

When someone gets perfected in a fighting game does that mean the other character is OP or does it just mean one player was significantly better than the other?

kbs666
07-04-2013, 08:16 AM
It's not the game's fault your APM is slow enough that you can't set unit group hotkeys, abilities, and formations before your opponent trudges across the entire battlefield which takes a decent amount of time. DoF isn't Total War, yes you need to spend some time learning the mechanics of a PvP game. Did you even record the battle to watch it again to see your mistakes? Also unit level isn't an automatic I-WIN button nor should it ever be. Making a good army composition and micro is far more important than having the higher level and that's a good thing. It's good that players who want to rely on brute strength of levels get trounced.

Clearly you're upset because you got beat in a game by a player who had far more experience or a far better army composition and you want to blame the game above all else. If you had some legitimate complaint about the game mechanics I'd be 100% behind you but so far you're complaining that army scores aren't calculated properly because someone used a greater mass of lower level units to beat your smaller mass of high level units and beat you.

Oh please. I used shortcuts, I do play PvP games quite a bit. The problem was even using shortcuts and such nothing happened most of the time.

As to your levels shouldn't matter nonsense, if the promotions actually do what they say, increase armor resists, attack, hit points, stamina and recovery, then higher level units should usually beat lower level troops. If the promotions don't do what they say then it is another instance of the game lying to the players. BTW you are arguing that zerg tactics should dominate. If that is the case in this game's mechanics it should be clearly spelled out by the point system. The point system makes the claim that quality and quantity can be balanced which is as it should be in a good PVP game. No one strategy should be the only one that works.

I'm upset because the game did not give me the information I needed to make a good decision about joining the battle and that the actual battle was so buggy/laggy I had almost no control of what was happening.

theinternetman
07-04-2013, 08:22 AM
All of the upgrades in this game work. Resistances, health regen, speed, stamina regen/max, damage, etc. Every single upgrade works but they're not I-WIN buttons. Sorry but no, high level units do not automatically beat lower level units, and that's again, a good thing. Picking upgrades to counter your opponents upgrades and using unit abilities like heals efficiently wins battles. 100% crush resistance is pointless when your opponent is shooting arrows at you.

Do the math on your units. If two level 5 units of Berserks beats one level 10 unit of knights that's an important thing to know. That matchup also has millions of combinations of upgrades that go into it depending on how each player used their skill points. Players like me often reskill our units many many times during the battle to counter the enemy's units as well.

Create an army of the unit you want to see the point value of, bam you now know what that unit is worth and can design armies around it. It's complete hyperbole to say that I'm in favor of zerging being the only viable tactic in DoF. You would have cited specific examples and explained the logic behind that accusation if it were true. Which is something you seem to be heavily deficient in. Maybe if you spent less time getting mad at the game in forums posts and spent more time researching and building a good army and practicing with it in the field you would win more games.

You're upset because you don't want to put in any time or effort into building and army and you want the game to give you a big fat I-WIN button and tell you exactly how to build your army to be competitive. Instant gratification gaming generation is part of the reason 99% of games in 2013 are so terrible.

Armies in this game are literally mass produce-able. Make tons of them, go practice, learn the game. Or just uninstall the game because I haven't seen a single constructive post in your history so you're clearly not interested in improving the game, just complaining and moaning because you paid $15 and didn't get to beat anyone in competitive online play.

I've had idiots zerg my knights and get trounced like it was nothing because I used better strategies. Like using the classic Warhammer strategy of tar pits. Knights are my tar pit units, with high resistances and almost no damage upgrades, while my archers are the damage dealers.

You can have 900 points of archers but if you're running regular arrows and your opponent is running high pierce resistance melee with restoration upgrades they could have 100 points and counter you easily if you don't have fire arrows researched or choose not to use them.

kbs666
07-04-2013, 12:10 PM
Enough of this crap.
You called me a liar and I even quoted the part where you said zerg tactics should always beat quality. Here I'll do it again.

complaining that army scores aren't calculated properly because someone used a greater mass of lower level units to beat your smaller mass of high level units and beat you
Now since I didn't complain about being beaten in a good fight. I complained that my forces were utterly destroyed by a lower point value army The only possible interpretation of your rather insulting attack is that in your opinion zerging is the only way to go.

Now go back and read what I wrote not the dumb strawman you've been attacking. Then be sure to tell the game devs you've driven off a player and made sure that the word of mouth I spread was that the game is broken and the forum is populated by fanbois who won't toerate someone stating the truth.

Hi11Zone
07-05-2013, 04:12 PM
Ok I understand the concern but this thread is getting way out of hand, i'm closing it.