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vicious666
04-11-2013, 10:01 AM
I am working on balancement in DoF, i play since 2011 i am a mod and also dev ,i have over 300 pvp match , and worked with the devs in the last 15 patch.
I am also an old player from 1997player, starcraft 1-2 , maniac of pvp balancement, so if you like talk about numbers & % i am the right guy.

But i am not everywhere and even if i have 3 cities full developed with army between 500 and 3500 of all 3 races, i cant see everything or experience every combination of units in game , so i need your opinions of what is OP what is underpowered , and why.


I have already sent a long list of balancement to the devs, regards augmenting dragons res since they are too squishy, and regards op bonus of berserker/orc units in general that can reach even 100% res thx to too generous bonus in theyr formation options. so this will be fixed soon.
Stamina of humans will be augmented for be on same page of orc/elfes.
Hp of archers will be boosted (starting hp )
Heroes regen will be lowered, same for self heal ability and maybe in some cases certain ability/bonus

i want specific units, specific problems, specific suggestion


the most valuable suggestion and report will receive from me a key WITH AN UNIQUE ICE DRAGON 120 CROWNS AND SOME DWARF UNITS

SadClown
04-11-2013, 12:33 PM
I don't really want the crowns and stuff. Nevertheless:

Range units are OP are the moment. As infantry/cavalry closes by, they'll fire horizontally, making all the projectiles deal massive damage. And even when in melee combat, they'll keep firing and overpowering said units.

I'm suggesting a second damage attack, melee only, for ranged units, so this issue is cut off. It's kinda funny to see how easily I broke a whole mounted knight charge with a few crossbowmen.

lthat
04-11-2013, 01:02 PM
There another 100% Res all combi on Elven Hero with 80/80/80 + armor ability 20/20/20 = 100/100/100 and this for a really really long time

http://www.reverieworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7060

Cynwulf
04-11-2013, 02:06 PM
I am a newb but i have been playing rts games since Dune 2. I know i am old.

Ranged units are too powerful. At the very least they should stop shooting once in melee. More specifically shield armed troops not on a horse should be very resistent to archers. Horses if not barded should be vulnerable otherwise knights on barded horses should be resistent but not as much as shield armed infantry. Crossbows should be very vulnerable to cavalry once in melee having a slower fire rate. Though crossbows should be more effective against shield armed troops as compared with archers those shields should still make them harder targets to damage.

Dragon hp regen is over powered. I do not feel they are too squishy either. They are very mobile being able to fly away from danger and then regen to full in minutes. They are very versatile too able to attack in melee and spit fire from a distance. not this was a black dragon. if that makes a difference.

Human Battering rams have too much hp. I charged knights out as a lone battering ram approached my gates hardly dented it along with 1 crossbow and 3 archers and many Trebs attacking it. At the very least the men using the battering ram should get killed easily in melee and should be able to be replaced by detaching infantry from another unit.

The other problem is running. There should be greater penalities emposed on units that run then engage in combat. I have watched armies run into battle from some distance away with little effect to there fighting ability.

Trebuchets should do a lot more damage to a dragon if they manage to strike one then they currently do.

when a unit of infantry is in shield wall they should stay that way not have a few men charge from it. It is a defensive formation which the enemy should have to break.

I have found human macemen to be useless. There not effective against archers or crossbow, not effective against other infantry with perhaps the exception of halbrediers which i cannot confirm. Ineffective against cavalry. historically(i know i know this is fantasy) foot macemen used a two handed mace and it would be very high damage weapon which would not be reduced due to heavy armor.

while my experience in the game is limited as compared with the op i bring the perspective of a newer player who has noticed the above so far in game.

By far i find the most glaring problem are dragons being far from squishy. The regen ability is overpowered in this game. If that was gone it would at least keep a dragon from coming back for more over and over again.

vicious666
04-11-2013, 03:33 PM
from my experience ranged units are powerful on low levels 1-10 after that trust me guys
with right formations the majority of the melee units (like slayers sentry sworsman foot knights berserker ) reach 85% pierce dmg res and tank quite easly the ranged dmg until they close the range enought for melee consider also archers have very low hp at high levels a mounted knights do 500-600 dmg an archer have 400-450 hp, they are insta killed by cavalry,same happens when infantry engage them on melee. (this happens between lev 10/20)

you need to speficy levels of you troops becouse at max hp hp regen and max res, the game balance change a lot towards melee than ranged in late levels

Whit the levels the dmg mitigation, the hp buffer, and regen allow melee units to absorb a lot of punishement while they do theyr job, archers instead be the main killers like happens in the range of level between 1 and 10 become more harasser/dmg add thathelp melee kill faster the enemy units, they have hard time complete the job by themself. just for comparation

lev 20 archers

dmg between 300 and 600 max 700 depends on formation/firearrow/skillpoints
health points 400-450 at max almost 0 res, unless they use infilade and have low res like 20-30-20

lev 20 foot knights dmg between 350 and 550, (depends much on the formation) 2050 hp maxed res 75 35 60 , with correct formation they go 85% pierce , self heal +100 hp, area heal 100 hp (the area heal work also on the caster) natural hp regen 20/sec

real archer dmg after armor reduction 85% , hp regen and self heals?

500 - 85% = 75 - 20(regen/sec) =50 - self heal 5/hp sec for 20 sec? they can almost permatank archers until they end stamina, and after that they receive only 50 dmg for arrow, that means 21 arrow for kill a single knight

of course compared to low levels, where archer do 300 dmg, knights have 500-700 hp, and 50% pierce, probably no hp regen, it takes only 4-5 arrow for kill one (300 archer dmg -50% pierce res = 150 ) so now archer appear powerful later they become the underdog. (of course concentration of archer shooting 1 single unit can still do good dmg but nothing compared to what happens at low levels)


[QUOTE=lthat;78118]There another 100% Res all combi on Elven Hero with 80/80/80 + armor ability 20/20/20 = 100/100/100 and this for a really really long time


signed

vicious666
04-11-2013, 03:44 PM
I am a newb but i have been playing rts games since Dune 2. I know i am old.

Ranged units are too powerful. At the very least they should stop shooting once in melee. More specifically shield armed troops not on a horse should be very resistent to archers. Horses if not barded should be vulnerable otherwise knights on barded horses should be resistent but not as much as shield armed infantry. Crossbows should be very vulnerable to cavalry once in melee having a slower fire rate. Though crossbows should be more effective against shield armed troops as compared with archers those shields should still make them harder targets to damage.

Dragon hp regen is over powered. I do not feel they are too squishy either. They are very mobile being able to fly away from danger and then regen to full in minutes. They are very versatile too able to attack in melee and spit fire from a distance. not this was a black dragon. if that makes a difference.

Human Battering rams have too much hp. I charged knights out as a lone battering ram approached my gates hardly dented it along with 1 crossbow and 3 archers and many Trebs attacking it. At the very least the men using the battering ram should get killed easily in melee and should be able to be replaced by detaching infantry from another unit.

The other problem is running. There should be greater penalities emposed on units that run then engage in combat. I have watched armies run into battle from some distance away with little effect to there fighting ability.

Trebuchets should do a lot more damage to a dragon if they manage to strike one then they currently do.

when a unit of infantry is in shield wall they should stay that way not have a few men charge from it. It is a defensive formation which the enemy should have to break.

I have found human macemen to be useless. There not effective against archers or crossbow, not effective against other infantry with perhaps the exception of halbrediers which i cannot confirm. Ineffective against cavalry.

while my experience in the game is limited as compared with the op i bring the perspective of a newer player who has noticed the above so far in game.

By far i find the most glaring problem are dragons being far from squishy. The regen ability is overpowered in this game. If that was gone it would at least keep a dragon from coming back for more over and over again.



I can say you that dragons looks powerful at low levels at high levels they are pretty easy to kill too easy, think about a lev 20 dwarf battler batallion have 2k life x20men and each of them do up to 900 dmg. they can do 15k+dmg on a dragon in 2 sec.

Regards maceman and halberdiers they are on progress to be boosted by a bit, they will receive hp boost dmg boost and more appropriate resistances for theyr roles is on work also dedicated formations and special ability for them.

There is a total re-concept of the Cavalier since they where praticly a weaker version of the mounted knights, now mounted knights will be slower.
Cavalier will be even faster, will have more hp than now, slightly more res, and more dmg, but more vulnerable to arrows they will be a sort of hit & run kind of cavalry with high dmg fast mobility low tank.

Many elves unit are also getting a boost in hp/dmg and more appropriate resistances expecial the cavalry and the melee units, and some rebalancement of orc formations/ dmg. that allowed them to reach too high res/dmg on berserker/slayers.
Humans are getting balanced here and there on various units but are minor adjustment, the biggest revamp are on archers, expecial orc one, less dmg/range overall. more survivability in general.


after done this basic unit rebalance, we will focus on heroes expecial nerfing a bit high res/hp regen , and reducing theyr self heal abilities

Cynwulf
04-11-2013, 05:35 PM
I can say you that dragons looks powerful at low levels at high levels they are pretty easy to kill too easy, think about a lev 20 dwarf battler batallion have 2k life x20men and each of them do up to 900 dmg. they can do 15k+dmg on a dragon in 2 sec.

Regards maceman and halberdiers they are on progress to be boosted by a bit, they will receive hp boost dmg boost and more appropriate resistances for theyr roles is on work also dedicated formations and special ability for them.

There is a total re-concept of the Cavalier since they where praticly a weaker version of the mounted knights, now mounted knights will be slower.
Cavalier will be even faster, will have more hp than now, slightly more res, and more dmg, but more vulnerable to arrows they will be a sort of hit & run kind of cavalry with high dmg fast mobility low tank.

Many elves unit are also getting a boost in hp/dmg and more appropriate resistances expecial the cavalry and the melee units, and some rebalancement of orc formations/ dmg. that allowed them to reach too high res/dmg on berserker/slayers.
Humans are getting balanced here and there on various units but are minor adjustment, the biggest revamp are on archers, expecial orc one, less dmg/range overall. more survivability in general.

Also you didn't discuss the Ram which seems to be very resistent to melee which it shouldn't be. They should need to be protected by ones own troops not able to move on a gate while his army stays safely back. Any sally from a fortification with cavalry should destroy said lone ram heading for a gate.


after done this basic unit rebalance, we will focus on heroes expecial nerfing a bit high res/hp regen , and reducing theyr self heal abilities

Shouldn't the game be balanced at all levels? Each troop type needs a role which is consistent throughout level progression. If a dragon is too powerful at low levels it needs to be toned down for low levels and if its too weak at the upper levels beefed up for those levels. Obviously this becomes difficult if you allow high level players to attack low level ones and vice a versa.

I like what you are doing with the cavalier ( light cavalry were fast and often used to take out archers from the flank or rear if possible. There horses having no barding would be very susceptable to archer fire too.

I have use of the Halberdier to intercept cavalry. Have not used the schiltron as of yet but imagine it would make them quite formidable against all troop types but even more vulnerable to archers and crossbow and siege equipment. Would slow them down considerably too.

I edited my post on macemen giviing a suggestion on there role in my previous post.

Does armor mitigate damage if so then certain weapon types would be less effected from this effect. For example a two handed mace or halbred would not be as effected by the armor an oppenent wears thus that armor would do less mitigation on the other hand a sword would be greatly effected by the mitigation of heavier armor.

mauro07
04-15-2013, 04:01 AM
i have a pvp, forse units are 79 for both; he have cavalery and units for siegeand 1 axel or champion dwarfe... he attack me with only dwarfe and destry my 3 low level units, i dont remember level of dwarfe but the value of this unit is underestimated in a pvp... same thing, i have pvp against 1 unit of ogre vs my 2 swordman and 2 archer and he won easily... i think some units have much hp are underestimated as a value to be counted in pvp ... might have to recalculate some values ​​there ... everything from what little I've seen ...

Brian Shingles
04-15-2013, 04:40 AM
Thanks everyone who has contributed so far. Keep the posts coming.

I am a newb but i have been playing rts games since Dune 2. I know i am old.
Don't say that! You'll make me feel old. I played Dune 2 as a teenager when it first came out.

vicious666
04-17-2013, 07:00 AM
We are working on rebalancing all starting from lev 1, and probably study a new lev system with more feature

Beefcakes
04-18-2013, 05:51 PM
I think more units need to be balanced to be more like the halberdier. At level 20 he has like 1k hp only like 150 damage and depending on the formation you set them at, 85/85/30 or 60/60/50. This said, he fills his role, a tank, he absorbs lots of damage well and doesn't do much.

A unit I would like to see a buff to would be the maceman. He never achieves much even when you give him an amazing chance to prove its not crap. Due to his weakness and inability to absorb damage, I would like to see a speed increase and damage increase to this unit.

As far as cavalry for men goes, I think the easiest short term buff would be to change the damage they deal to crushing. Most units in game are not really made to take crush damage and could easily help the forgotten units be used more often. If this is not an appealing idea, then just simply increase charge damage as the unit levels up.

I would really like to see combat in the game take a warcraft 3 approach. The game had many different armors and attacks that gave the game a really diverse feel over a small amount of available men. Heroes had stats where normal units did not, and they had many powerful abilities making them extremely valuable as the game progressed. In effort of keeping battalions and formations appealing, I feel they should have larger bonuses, while units have less stats. That way if a guy activated a formation of a certain style you had a reason to be worried about it, rather then going well this doesn't do me any good.

The final blab of the day, is to see something new, like squad linking. (Suggestions favor man) For instance, imagine placing knights in anvil formation, and then tasking archers to them. The archers would then take their places inside the formation and become very well protected from melee (Archers gain a minimum range to balance this). Perhaps you assign archers or crossbowmen to swordsmen and they take up a skirmish stance. The ranged unit would stand in front while the swordsmen close behind, as melee and cavalry close in or start damaging the ranged units they will attempt to fall back behind the swordsmen (This is going off the idea of having snares or unit locks to stop units from running past people). Or maybe a combined charge idea, where lance style cavalry charge in and knock down and disrupt units. Cavalry with shorter weapons (maces, swords) charge behind and deal bonus damage to the hit units.

vicious666
04-19-2013, 07:09 AM
Maceman will be faster and have more appropriate res for melee fights, also more dmg, and hp they will be incredibly vulnerable to ranged

cavalier is becoming a fast rider high dmg low ranged res cavalry, speed is aldo increased, heavy cav will be slower, more resilent. also the self dmg for the trumple will be lowered or removed totally.

Goblins are getting a total re-vamp and hide ability, augmented dmg /hp res,movement speed, the concept behind them is : they are good for flanking enemy army, using a combination of hide+fast speed, stamina got augmented, they have also a small area heal.

Elfs in general got theyr dmg boosted for balancing the fact that theyr batallion have less members, they got also a boost in hp, stamina, and adjusted some res, the elf cavalry got boosted a lot in term of res , dmg etc, rangers and mounted rangers got hp boost range boost.

Orc cavalry got a boost in resistence, they have low numbers for batallion so we augmented the hp by a lot.

GPS51
04-22-2013, 10:56 AM
Just a quick note. Human archer with appropriate formation can get 1630 range while elves are limited to 1350. Suggest a range buff when in "wind" formation.

Laradon
04-22-2013, 11:30 AM
You got to have a basis to work with.

A 60/60 army of orcs humans elves elite units lvl 20 has to be of the same Battlestrength in the end. Meaning there cant be armies of 3000 Battlestrength of Orcs with 60 Lvl 20 Units compared to armies of 1000 Battlestrength of Elves anymore. In the end maxed out armies have to be of the same Strength or close to it, so they are able to attack each other and fight it out. At the moment, orcs can create those 2k Battlestr and more armies while others cant. This leads to the imbalance that they can create armies to farm gold or crowns with, that are perfectly safe. This includes Elite units as well. They gotta be somewhere near those numbers too. This is the basis you have to balance units on, or you change the whole thing and do something different, but guess it's better to work with the things present.

And this means in the end, that a 24/24 unit gotta fight with a 16/16 or 15/15 unit without having a significant advantage. The value that gives advantage the most at this point, is the hp regeneration per second, which is for 24 units max = 24x20 or 16x20 or 15x20. This leads to the fact, that survivability is extremely higher in larger squads. Imagine a bunch of archers shooting at 15 people or 24 people. Someone else will be hit more often and the regeneration helps to heal the damage alot better, thus tanking the damage is alot easier. Or 15 people fighting 24, the 24 will have more people that wont be attacked and have a chance to regenerate the damage they sustain easier, while dealing constant damage to the 15. The unit affected the most by this, is the ogre, 1 unit with 20hp/s on several thousand hp, pretty useless.
To balance this, you can set the regeneration to the same lvl. i.e. 24x20 = 480 hp/s 16x30 = 480 hp/s, well ogre 1x480 probably too much ;). you can increase the lethality in the 24/24 squad (lower hp, resist -> note that at this point, fallen units seem to rise from the dead very quickly)or increase damage of the lower squads. Theres other options like disabling the regeneration in combat, which would make the balancing alot easier, but this requires many out of combat changes like making units cheaper to lvl, cant spend 40k gold on a unit that can potentially die in any NPC fight now.

I would actually favor the disabling of regeneration, maybe allow units to regenerate only if they hit a button called "rest up" and they start regenerating after a few seconds, stoping combat etc. and would have to retreat for this. This could be the only way to make the lvl 20 lvl 1 gap smaller , because there is just no use to fight units that regenerate the damage they get in the same moment while killing of any attacker.

vicious666
04-22-2013, 03:28 PM
Just a quick note. Human archer with appropriate formation can get 1630 range while elves are limited to 1350. Suggest a range buff when in "wind" formation.

basic range of rangers got augmented and also wind formation got more range.

mauro07
04-23-2013, 02:16 PM
cannon dwarf.... they attack wall from space... my trabuchet are helpless, useless :confused:

Konstantin Fomenko
04-23-2013, 08:50 PM
The best way to counter Dwarven cannon is to ride our with your cavalry. We strongly recommend players keep at least some cavalry in their town for situations like that.

Striker
04-27-2013, 02:53 AM
sry just a little bit of a Middle ages history buff here reason for me buying this game :) I am not going into great detail just skimming along with some things that I have noticed.

1. Knights are OP once u get them to level 10+ the resistances are a little too high, you can get knights with 10 health per second more if u put points into it, and the bonus from using pray, 20k life per group and quite a bit of damage. my knights are currently level 15-16 and I have 100% resistance to slash damage I have no idea how I got it to that point.

here is a screenshot of the 100% slash.
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6721/2013042700001.jpg


2. unicorns attack too fast with a knockback the knock back stops your troop from attacking at all, if you do not have more then 1 person attacking that unicorn you will lose 100% of the time.

3. Elf has very low health even for the melee troops they die very quickly at the start and if you cannot afford to level them up with training at the cities it will deter alot of people away from playing elf because of how easy their units die.

4. bladestorm is highly OP, if you run into a group of enemies and just use bladestorm you can kill their entire force in a matter of seconds.


5. Calvary is a total joke in this game to be honest with you, Calvary were used as anti archer hit and run tactics in the middle ages, Calvary in this game can charge archers yes, but will they make it to the archer force before they are cut down by the archers, it does not happen that often. knights would charge archer forces with their shields raised to not get cut down by the arrows while they make it to the archer line.

6. Trebs are a total joke, their range is very low the art of attacking a city the enemy city archers should not out range trebs no matter what, no where in history has a archer in a castle or tower been able to shoot at the enemy long range siege equipment.

7. back to trebs again, the accuracy of defence siege equipment is far too accurate, I have Siege'd some people and have had all my trebs I am talking about 20 of them here as a test, totally destroyed by enemy defence trebs before I can even down a wall. this is with the Siege bonus perk.

8. Fire does not do enough damage, if a Soldier was to catch on fire his rags would burn and he would die of heat being unable to put it out in heavy armor and or take the armor off.

9. archers are pretty much useless late game, their life and damage is pretty pitiful against anything with high resistance, even crossbow are not that great late game, crossbow in the middle ages were used as basically the snipers of the age, they were able to pierce the toughest plate armor with deadly accuracy and even make it through shields or stick into shields about half way to full penetration depending on the material.

I can go on and on about humans and elfs, I have not tried the 3rd race because of the rumors of how terrible they are. I almost deter away from elfs when I first started because of the bad rumors and rep they got, I must admit elfs are not that great either.

Humans are the go to race for everything, easy wins high resistance units, high health units, high damage units, easy win.

just my 2 cents on stuff I have seen.

before anyone says wait till end game, I have played elfs at lvl 20 and humans at lvl 20, I keep deleting cities and starting over, Humans are the go to race for easy mode.

vicious666
04-27-2013, 05:59 AM
humans have the lowest dmg of all 3 races.

compare class, like: swordsman-slayers-sentry. or knights berserker grandmasters, humans are always last in therms of dps.

1) knights in term of damage are behind berserker and behind grandmasters, you have 100% res must be a bug, the maximum res you can reach is 90 and i am talking about slash for knights., or you not played recently. we inserted a hard cap for 90% res plz check again.

2) going to check unicorn if they need again a nerf

3) elfs are weak on low levels, and are a hard race to master, but at high levels they are very good. is the most difficoult race to play, formation change cost a lot, all units have abilities. high dmg but low h they require a lot of micromanagent.

4)bladestorm will get a small nerf sunday, in terms of res. but is all about what you use for stop them, theyr direct-counter is berserker or footknights

5) this is a fantasy-rpg-rts game, not a reconstruction of Agincourt, i dont know what cavalry you use, but mounted knights chew archers like nothing, and tank a lot. is one of the most tanked unit of humans, and the one that have more hp for soldier. if you use correct formation they are fast enought to avoid archers volley at long range, and also have 70%+ pierce res.


6) i am gonna augment range of trebs

7) use cannons if you wanna outrange city defences.

8) fire do a lot at low levels and to archers/ranged, if we raise more the fire dmg , fight will be all about run to fire.

9) archers got hp boosted as well res. fire arrow dmg bypass armor res you now that?
firearrow dmg got also recently augmented
Regards xbowman i am changing a bit of their dmg to crush, so is more spot on vs tanked troops (tank troops lower res will be always crush )

Regard orcs, tbh slayers+berserker are one of best infantry combination in game

Striker
04-27-2013, 11:45 AM
humans have the lowest dmg of all 3 races.

compare class, like: swordsman-slayers-sentry. or knights berserker grandmasters, humans are always last in therms of dps.

1) knights in term of damage are behind berserker and behind grandmasters, you have 100% res must be a bug, the maximum res you can reach is 90 and i am talking about slash for knights., or you not played recently. we inserted a hard cap for 90% res plz check again.


I got my knights to 100% slash last night. I woke up this morning and it is back at 90 but I can put points into slash again to get it up to 100.


4)bladestorm will get a small nerf sunday, in terms of res. but is all about what you use for stop them, theyr direct-counter is berserker or footknights

I was using knights against a army that used bladestorm and just totally destroyed me in 5 seconds.


5) this is a fantasy-rpg-rts game, not a reconstruction of Agincourt


agincourt huh?? you a torontonian as well

vicious666
04-28-2013, 08:28 AM
I got my knights to 100% slash last night. I woke up this morning and it is back at 90 but I can put points into slash again to get it up to 100.


I was using knights against a army that used bladestorm and just totally destroyed me in 5 seconds.



agincourt huh?? you a torontonian as well

i need more detailed answers

he got bladestorm i got knights is not a valid answer, what level your knights are and how they are skilled, what level his bladestorm where etc
what formation you where using, with wrong formation and skilling any unit can rape any unit.

Call4God
04-28-2013, 10:35 AM
Bladestorms are very clearly overpowered at the moment. I believe it is the ability that makes them so. Entire squads of men dissapear instantly in lower levels, I almost lost a squad of level 10 swordsmen max resist in shieldwall+battle line to 5 random NPC bladestorms on the view area map. Something is wrong with them.

buddhist23
04-28-2013, 11:38 AM
As far as i'm concerned, leveling units is a chore. If only we could level units from the world map........

Laradon
04-28-2013, 11:42 AM
Bladestorms are very clearly overpowered at the moment. I believe it is the ability that makes them so. Entire squads of men dissapear instantly in lower levels, I almost lost a squad of level 10 swordsmen max resist in shieldwall+battle line to 5 random NPC bladestorms on the view area map. Something is wrong with them.

While the balancing is turned to stamina and damage, I think it's the range increase that did this. Units get multiple hits by different bladestorms, making the ability x3x4x5 as powerful.

vicious666
04-28-2013, 01:45 PM
While the balancing is turned to stamina and damage, I think it's the range increase that did this. Units get multiple hits by different bladestorms, making the ability x3x4x5 as powerful.

for now i added a cooldown so ppl cant use ability more than once every 15 sec, and removed 50 dmg, also augmented stamina .

than i am gonna test if range is an issue , or if there is any problem regards multiple soldier hit a target together an add more whirlwind dmg.

forandever
04-28-2013, 08:36 PM
Please, check.. Dragon is really weak on PvP for his army power.

Just have a try. For example, lv 20 units from the city(melee and ranged and mounted) VS lv 60 Royal Dragon as a same Army Strength.

I tried many times.. I lost 5 Royal dragons.. they were all above the lv 40. One was above lv 50. (now I have just 1 Royal drag lv 58)

Sometimes my dragon fought with my Cavalry, archers and knights(whoes lv is all above lv 10~15), Sometimes my dragon fought alone(1 Dragon army)

But It was hopeless.. Check it out how many times I won PvP(103 win). I won almost case without dragon in my army(more than 50 times?). But I lose almost case(20 or more times?) when I was with my Royal Dragon.

Dragon is useless on PvP.. totally useless except the case opponent is over-estimating the Dragon's Power and fall back or the case opponent is cautious beginner.
The dragon's only worth lies in Quest. and plus maybe when defending the city(not as a fighter role, but as a hitting seige weapon and run role)

The most big problem is.. as I wrote before..

The Dragon can do nothing for a few seconds whenever he's surrounded by 2 or more groups of enemy's melee or mounted unit. (the enemy unit's lv doesn't matter, I think. That means even by lv 1 units)

It means for about 5~10 seconds he's just stunned, only doing defence pose with his wings and doing no damage on enemy units.

For a few seconds, he can't use fireball, firewall, and cant attack(melee), cant move at all.

And for that moments.. Dragon is significantly damaged(he lost a lot of HP for that monents with doing nothing damage(melee, firewall, fireball) on enemy units.

I tried hit and run with Dragon's fast speed and charging DMG .. but It was useless too, when the enemy melee units move together. The dragon couldn't give them a little dmg. Firewall is useless too, when the melee foot guys or mounted guys move quickly and while using firewall or fireball, he's just a sandbag, a dummy. There's no reason to take a risk to use firewall. Using firewall => means a dummy with doing little dmg to enemy and Being surrounded with melee guys=> Death is near quickly.

When the opponent of my dragon take a risk of loosing a few units, he can kill or defeat my dragon so easily.. The dragon's lv is not important. He is weak at low lv, weak at high lv too. There's no need of Dragon Slayer unit.

Compare the case " lv 20 knight(1 Group) VS lv 1~5 knights(or swordsman) " as a same army strength.

Please.. Please check it... Dont let my 4 or 5 Royal dragons' death unworthy.

Laradon
04-29-2013, 02:58 AM
Dragons are awesomely strong in PvP. They have a max of 290 runspeed, so only the fastest cavalry can catch em. If they destroyed the cavalry with firewall or the enemy does not have any cavalry, nothing can stop it anymore. A dragon is not meant to clash with the enemies melees, you could forever run away and harass em until every single enemy is dead. You just used it wrong and there can't be any rebalancings for bad play imo or those who allready used it correctly get a OP boost. If I kill royal dragons in PvP I'm always thanking him silently for not running away. As the dragon is counted for an awesome amount of battlestrength, I would lose every single fight in which I dont manage to take down the dragon or make the enemy pay out.

As far as Battlestrength of Dragons is concerned, It can't be lowered. The synergy effect of 2 or 3 Dragons combined is just too strong, spaming Firewall or Fireball 3 times makes even the toughest units drop instantly. And hit and run tactics are greatly enhanced If you can let 1 or 2 dragons attack while the other can rest up.

vicious666
04-29-2013, 02:18 PM
the problem is strenght value is shared between dragons and heroes that means if i lower dragons i lower also heroes, dragons are not made for tank 10 enemy units in middle of the melee fight, becouse each soldier in a batallion apply his dmg, so if your knights do 500 dmg in truth is 500 dmg x 15, dragon is a lone unit linked to his animation for apply dmg, this is why is hard to balance. i my final consideration i wanna dragon to value around 200 strenght, as much as 10 lev 20 units. and heroes to value around 5-6 units lev 20. so around 80-100 strenght at lev 60
Dragons are made for harass, and fight/kill maximum 2-5 units. consider also combination, dragon dmg augment also with battle roar from heroes, getting around 2700 dmg.
Dragons are a force multiplier not a main hp buffer/tank



i just finished next balance patch expecial around elf abilities such as whirlwind, tackle ,than i am gonna work on strenght values for units than i return on dragons lowering 25%.30% strenght value and maybe augmenting hp by another 15-20k hp (an increae of roughly 22% )

i lowered also dmg multiplicator bonus on spear troops vs dragons and monsters, lowered also all dmg hero expecial dmg multiplicator for dragon slayer

forandever
04-29-2013, 08:21 PM
Dragons are awesomely strong in PvP. They have a max of 290 runspeed, so only the fastest cavalry can catch em. If they destroyed the cavalry with firewall or the enemy does not have any cavalry, nothing can stop it anymore. A dragon is not meant to clash with the enemies melees, you could forever run away and harass em until every single enemy is dead. You just used it wrong and there can't be any rebalancings for bad play imo or those who allready used it correctly get a OP boost. If I kill royal dragons in PvP I'm always thanking him silently for not running away. As the dragon is counted for an awesome amount of battlestrength, I would lose every single fight in which I dont manage to take down the dragon or make the enemy pay out.

As far as Battlestrength of Dragons is concerned, It can't be lowered. The synergy effect of 2 or 3 Dragons combined is just too strong, spaming Firewall or Fireball 3 times makes even the toughest units drop instantly. And hit and run tactics are greatly enhanced If you can let 1 or 2 dragons attack while the other can rest up.
Have u tried surrounding him? Although the dragon is fast, if he want to strike the enemy he must be close to the enemy(except fireball).And even the fireball is useless If the target(even the slow melee units) run towards the Dragon

Once.. just once he's surrounded, and the opponent takes a chance of loosing some of his units and doesn't fall back, the dragon will Surely Die, 99%. As I wrote above, he becomes stunned when he's surrounded by melee units(2 or more groups).

My writting was focused on that fact.
Surrounding him by my mounted knights I killed many dragons with almost no dmg recieved.

Suppose the enemy's melee units always move together. The dragon can't attack, if want to win or if want to survive !!!. Dont tell me he's awesomely strong, I lost many dragons , and I killed many dragons without any dragon in my army. All Dragon army has its risk too, just think of 120 crowns or the gold or the time that's needed for 1 single dragon. The opponets may lose some of his units, but one single dragon loss is no match for that. As I repeat and repeat.. if the opponet dont hesitate to lose some of his units, he can surely kill them one by one.

The firewall and fireball takes much time to use that ability, I mean, posing time to use that ability. Dont exaggerate that ability. Single firewall or fireball cant kill the knights or melee units. And.. just a little move is enough to evade the fireball and firewall. And if many points are spent to stamina, his melee attack becomes low. He couldnt kill the knights with his twice attack. My lv 58 Royal dragon has above 1700 attk(has 400 stamina) but he couldnt kill swordsman lv 1~2 unit group with his single melee blow. U know what ? The Dragon's melee attack takes a little time too and has weakness to loose formation. And most units can have great defence on slash, moderate defence on crush(Dragon melee attk = half slash, half crush)..

Once he's surrounded, he becomes stunned with doing nothing but defence pose without doing any dmg to enemys. While the dragon is stunned he sometimes use firewall automatically to make his stamina points sometimes minus value.

forandever
04-29-2013, 08:22 PM
the problem is strenght value is shared between dragons and heroes that means if i lower dragons i lower also heroes, dragons are not made for tank 10 enemy units in middle of the melee fight, becouse each soldier in a batallion apply his dmg, so if your knights do 500 dmg in truth is 500 dmg x 15, dragon is a lone unit linked to his animation for apply dmg, this is why is hard to balance. i my final consideration i wanna dragon to value around 200 strenght, as much as 10 lev 20 units. and heroes to value around 5-6 units lev 20. so around 80-100 strenght at lev 60
Dragons are made for harass, and fight/kill maximum 2-5 units. consider also combination, dragon dmg augment also with battle roar from heroes, getting around 2700 dmg.
Dragons are a force multiplier not a main hp buffer/tank



i just finished next balance patch expecial around elf abilities such as whirlwind, tackle ,than i am gonna work on strenght values for units than i return on dragons lowering 25%.30% strenght value and maybe augmenting hp by another 15-20k hp (an increae of roughly 22% )

i lowered also dmg multiplicator bonus on spear troops vs dragons and monsters, lowered also all dmg hero expecial dmg multiplicator for dragon slayer
Thanks,, but As I wrote above, he becomes stunned when he's surrounded by melee units(2 or more groups). My writting was focused on that fact.

Surrounding him by my mounted knights I killed many dragons with almost no dmg recieved.

Plz....check it

forandever
04-30-2013, 04:51 AM
As the title says..

The defence rate of all units generoulsy too high..

Max defence rate of units should be downgraded, I think..

forandever
04-30-2013, 05:46 AM
Suppose <level 20 Kinghts one group> VS< level 1 Knights several group> as a same Army strength.

I bet level 20 knights one group will surely win.

If there's an average level gap of 5(about 5? maybe 10?) between PvP attack side and defence side.. the match shouldn't happen even if they have same army strength. That's what I learned from experience.

* when calculating the average level of army, the hero and the elite unit level should be calculated with some other methods.

forandever
05-01-2013, 12:05 AM
As the title says..

The defence rate of all units generoulsy too high..

Max defence rate of units should be downgraded, I think..


Sorry There is a bug...

I have raised the defence of my units to the max(means that the button, for example slash defence button, turned grey color)

But After next battle or after lv up again, I can raise that unit's defence again.

That means the units can have much more defence than u dev think. (for example, Knights in loose formation : 85/60/90 )

forandever
05-03-2013, 10:05 AM
Whirl Wind .. when used by many groups of Bladestorm.. It is ridiculous.. totally crazy.

Several lv3~4 groups of Bladestorm used Whirlwind at once.

And my lv20 knights and mounted knights were just melted down instantly.

forandever
05-03-2013, 10:10 AM
I got my knights to 100% slash last night. I woke up this morning and it is back at 90 but I can put points into slash again to get it up to 100.


I was using knights against a army that used bladestorm and just totally destroyed me in 5 seconds.



agincourt huh?? you a torontonian as well



1. reistance 100% is a BUG.

2. Whirl Wind of Bladestorm.. It's just kind of cheat.

My 4 groups of lv20 knights and 3 groups of lv20 mounted knights were melted down in a second.. when several groups of lv3~4 Bladestorm use whirlwind at one.

vicious666
05-04-2013, 11:21 AM
whirlwind are supposed to have a 25 sec dooldown, but is not working on patch a dev is looking why

Laradon
05-04-2013, 10:44 PM
I dont think the cooldown will have an effect. If I move armies one by one i can move unlimited numbers of bladestorms over each other. I approach your knights, make em instadie, retreat 25 sec. rinse and repeat. I think those ae damage abilities on units with a squadsize have to be removed until units actually block each other. Or it will always be exploitable really hard.

Same thing the other way around happens, if the guy spreads his army too late and like 10 squads are inside 1 tiny line and someone bladestorms close to them. Too much uncontrollable damage with that AE stuff as it is.

Markus81
05-05-2013, 12:09 AM
humans have the lowest dmg of all 3 races.

compare class, like: swordsman-slayers-sentry. or knights berserker grandmasters, humans are always last in therms of dps.

1) knights in term of damage are behind berserker and behind grandmasters, you have 100% res must be a bug, the maximum res you can reach is 90 and i am talking about slash for knights., or you not played recently. we inserted a hard cap for 90% res plz check again.

2) going to check unicorn if they need again a nerf

3) elfs are weak on low levels, and are a hard race to master, but at high levels they are very good. is the most difficoult race to play, formation change cost a lot, all units have abilities. high dmg but low h they require a lot of micromanagent.

4)bladestorm will get a small nerf sunday, in terms of res. but is all about what you use for stop them, theyr direct-counter is berserker or footknights

5) this is a fantasy-rpg-rts game, not a reconstruction of Agincourt, i dont know what cavalry you use, but mounted knights chew archers like nothing, and tank a lot. is one of the most tanked unit of humans, and the one that have more hp for soldier. if you use correct formation they are fast enought to avoid archers volley at long range, and also have 70%+ pierce res.


6) i am gonna augment range of trebs

7) use cannons if you wanna outrange city defences.

8) fire do a lot at low levels and to archers/ranged, if we raise more the fire dmg , fight will be all about run to fire.

9) archers got hp boosted as well res. fire arrow dmg bypass armor res you now that?
firearrow dmg got also recently augmented
Regards xbowman i am changing a bit of their dmg to crush, so is more spot on vs tanked troops (tank troops lower res will be always crush )

Regard orcs, tbh slayers+berserker are one of best infantry combination in game

I notice few ppl i played against, knights with 100 resistance comes up after u maxed to 80% and when u fight or whatever do something it gets automatlic to 100% my nights have it, and blade storm are as imortal, with the buff ... comes to, cut down ur army, get loads of gold and farm some where to get smaller force up max lvl to have a chance against a person that have those armies high lvl and buffs.. i mean the one who use real money get guess bigest advantage in the game or those who have high lvl soldiers with 100 resistance, are immortal. I enjoy the game and its fune and love the pvp but it kinda drags out when some one can kill 25 armies of urs with 4 armies that are high lvl not mention if there hero is omy 20+? i have just start play this game like 1 week ago and try be on as much, try get higher lvl units , but its hard when they die to imortal 1 man army...

Markus81
05-05-2013, 12:14 AM
Suppose <level 20 Kinghts one group> VS< level 1 Knights several group> as a same Army strength.

I bet level 20 knights one group will surely win.

If there's an average level gap of 5(about 5? maybe 10?) between PvP attack side and defence side.. the match shouldn't happen even if they have same army strength. That's what I learned from experience.

* when calculating the average level of army, the hero and the elite unit level should be calculated with some other methods.

Ur right the lvl 20 knight grp will probly win, happend to me 4 knights armies vs 10-12 armies lvl 1 to 4 to 6 died easly, they need a better pvp system that dont just match the str of the army, 1 person can have "big" army but all can be lvl one, wich will end up he loses if 1 armie attacks that are over lvl 10, i get the point ppl need to lvl there armies, but there are ppl just started this game will get run over.. pvp should be based on something else then str, donno what but ye.

Markus81
05-05-2013, 12:27 AM
No army should ever get over 70% res.Its crazy when armies reach 100 for a long time or permantly, they become basicly imortal and just run u over in a flash.. and ppl rage about dragons being op donno if they talk about lvl 60 , becuse my royal dragon lvl 13 isnt op, he can get easly killed if grp of arrows hit him and so on, they should just meet a person with high lvl army like grp of bladestorm and knights or grandmaster horse army gg, other wise the game is great and fune but latley is hard when those imortal armys show up:P and kill of ur lvl 10+ armies, and so on, i think it should be a better pvp system or something , i mean its okey system now but it just looking after str of the armie or city , wich can be hard for newbie player, if he havent lvl up strong army yet, anyways keep up the good work, the game haves a bright future i belive.

vicious666
05-08-2013, 11:24 AM
there is hard cap at 90% res nothing can go over no combination of basicres+upgrade+formation+ability can go over 90% res

if someone have 100% are bugged units of old patches, or glitch of the skill reset, with is not under my control, i do balancements, not new "feature" implementation.


report that to konstantin or brian. expecial if you can provide logs or you able to replicate the issue.



regards whirlwind 25sec dooldown+less range+ 20 more stamina cost now should fit the balance, let me know.

regards str balancements i rebalanced all str values, but tbh we wanna do a new sytem for the levels becouse the units gain too much of their dmg/hp etc thrue leveles, we wanna cut how an units improve true levels since have major impact on unit effectiveness and augment basic effectiveness. so an unit lev 10 is not that underpowered compared to a lev 20. this will help who fight whit many low lev batallion ppl with less batallion but higher levels

oopomopoo
05-16-2013, 06:13 PM
I just want to take this moment and thank the devs for doing this. I can't think of any game out there that actually asked the players what their view on balance is instead of just doing internal testing and ending up breaking balance terribly. Many hugs for you and your team. :3

On topic though, I'm a new player so I'm going based off of what I've read from other players and my personal experience in PVE.

I feel archers are underpowered. I asked a mod and they told me to play with it and I'll find how they're useful, but I just don't get it. I got part of it earlier today in a siege - they excel at sniping siege weapons. But against infantry? hah. Saying they have terrible accuracy would be a compliment to them. I haven't done any recent tests, but in one of the main quests I had to attack an orc camp. The main camp had plenty and I mean plenty of enemies, and there was a small camp near it with only 2 groups of enemies. I had about eight level 10 Grand Masters and six level 6 Archers (They aren't killing enough to even level) and I had my archers initiate the battle by attacking the side camp with two groups of orcs and sent my hero in to tank them so they don't go after the archers. I then sent my Grand Masters into the main camp of about 10-20 orcs and told them to battle for Azlan. The Grand Masters had wiped out the entire camp before the six groups of archers were able to kill the two groups of orcs.

I've also heard that archers don't hit well at night. If that's the case, I would highly suggest you revert it. It may be realistic, but in this game you can't exactly determine the time you want to attack; not that I know of at least. A severe penalty such as this for something you can't even control is incredibly steep.

Also from my perspective, damage is out of control. Armor should be something you want, not something you need. What I mean by that, is I want to build units to be tanks. I feel like it's not just a bad idea, but it's just wrong that a group of ranged units (Dwarf rifleman people) can get 90 in all resistances. they're supposed to be fragile and always be at range so they're not attacked. They're not supposed to be able to go toe to toe with melee. I feel I'm getting off track here. Anyways, damage is too high, and thus it creates a need that every unit you have should be at max resist. It makes having resists feel like a necessity rather than a desire. You don't [I]want to build your grandmasters with 90% in all resists, you have to. In the end this limits the diversity of troops. [Which unrelated, you guys did a great job in adding a diverse amount of stats to level up.]

You guys have the real numbers, but I would suggest lowering damage all across the board, increasing resistance (maybe), and then lowering the resist % gain per point to 3,4 or even 2%. That way being a full fledged tank will be a full fledged tank. You spend more points on armor, so you have less points to spend on attack, stamina or speed.

Lastly, siege weapons. Mostly the trebs, ballistas and whatever orcs have. Rams I feel do too little damage. I didn't actually time it, but it felt like a good 5 minutes at least before my treant was able to knock down the door; all the while he was being bombarded by archers. I would love to have attached him to a wall, but it was a dam type situation so the gate was the only way inside. Ranged siege I feel are too weak. Simply too weak overall. Siege are great in mass, but I think it's better to have more efficient weapons rather than throwaway weapons. (Which is what they pretty much are right now) I would suggest doubling/tripling the health, doubling/tripling damage and increasing their unit cost to 2. (Triple for a possible buff to siege units.) This will allow siege weapons to be more effective and more deadly. It should also lessen the server load just a bit since there are less units on the field.

edit --

regards str balancements i rebalanced all str values, but tbh we wanna do a new sytem for the levels becouse the units gain too much of their dmg/hp etc thrue leveles, we wanna cut how an units improve true levels since have major impact on unit effectiveness and augment basic effectiveness. so an unit lev 10 is not that underpowered compared to a lev 20. this will help who fight whit many low lev batallion ppl with less batallion but higher levels Rebalancing? I like this talk :)

I hope I'm not annoying you with my suggestions. I'm bored and balancing things is just how my mind works. I'm a tactical thinker. Anyways, I believe it's the upgrade system here. Upgrades are powerful in this game, and I'm sure you know that. an 8% damage increase is a very large damage increase per point, and from 10-20, one can get a (without a cap) 240% damage increase over a level 10. I believe that you shouldn't nerf it too much, as levels /should/ be meaningful and a sign of strength to your army. In the end, a group of level 10s should never be fighting a group of level 20s. I would at most suggest nerfing it by 50%. 4% per point is still a good amount, adding up to 12% additional damage per level, or 15% extra health per level. I think this mixed in with the suggestion up above would be the way to rebalance combat.

In terms of army strength though, I've heard there are problems with it. I don't really know because I've only had one pvp match where we were relatively equal yet he completely obliterated my army with riflemen because of 90% in all resist with level 12 rifles against my level 5 units.. :p
I don't know your algorithm for figuring army strength, but I do know it's a bit broken at the moment. I finished a siege and had 797 strength. I went to town, healed up and fully leveled my units and ended with 567 army strength. Same units except they were all fully leveled and didn't have points remaining. That was literally the only change; leveling up. Perhaps assigning each troop a specific number for its value and multiplying it by its level, then adding it all together would be a nice and simple way to get a power level. Siege would probably be Z value multiplied by average level of army. To prevent huge numbers like we all hate, take off two or three numbers. For example, I personally love Grand Masters and think they're amazing. I would give them a 1.5 value. Archers I would give a .01 value (Kidding; probably a 1.0), and give a Ballista a .3 (They are only effective against walls. Useful, but an army of ballista are not going to win anything. Using .7 as initially intended provided a very high 227.5 strength compared to the 10 grand masters' 105.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------a--------x-------b--------y--------n= number of groups. (a/a+b/b)
With those, having 7 level 10 GMs, 6 level 10 Archers and 5 level 1 Ballista, the army level would be ((7)(1.5)(10))+((6)(1.0)(10))+((5((ax+by)/n)*.3))=262.5

262.5 could be lowered to 26.25 to prevent high numbers; also it could be multiplied by 2 (or something) to be 52.5 to provide a higher number. for players to feel proud of.

Also, if you're hiring... I've got time and and desire. I love this game. :D

vicious666
05-18-2013, 05:57 AM
dwarf rifleman have 90% thx to skill reset bug, same for archers they not supposed to reach more than 40-50%, and this by using infilade ability.





regards archer for improve theyr effectiveness we gonna augment the flying speed of the arrows