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View Full Version : Feel the same about heroes?


kyama
05-30-2009, 04:09 PM
I don't know how heroes will play out in DOF. In warcraft3 it worked good because of low pop. cap. But having pop. cap of nearly 1000. Don't it feel like heroes will become useless, if not just annoying to have him/her around. I think without heroes this game will be better. This will let us focues on massive armies, strategies, flanking, rather than making sure our hero is safe at all times.

I might be wrong but that's my opinion.

Puppeteer
05-30-2009, 04:28 PM
The heroes don't seem to be vitally important. Sure, the campaign ones are, but in normal modes the heroes seem more to be support units. Supplementary, not necessary. If you can manage them, they'll be very advantageous.

Darvin
05-30-2009, 04:48 PM
Look at Sins of a Solar Empire for an example of how that turns out. They basically took the Warcraft III hero system (for capital ships) and incorporated it into a game with hundreds of units.

A few things become apparent relatively quickly. First, so long as you can keep them leveling up as your fleet grows in size and power, capital ship strength actually scaled throughout the game. They offered unique abilities to complement your fleet, scaling combat strength, and invaluable support roles. Secondly, even though the capital ship cap is actually quite high (up to 16 if the game goes long enough) most people have relatively few. A few high level capital ships are more valuable than many low level ones. Late game their damage wasn't a huge deal, it was their special abilities that gave them presence, and if these are well designed they remain dangerous from start to finish.

Overall, I'm convinced that "heroes" can work and scale well into huge army games, but they have to be done right. We'll have to wait and see what Reverie has in mind for them, as spellcasters are going to be separate from the hero system.

Kire
05-30-2009, 04:48 PM
I need heroes for role playing part =P, so they are not useless, i just hope they will be good looking =).

kyama
05-30-2009, 05:50 PM
That's nice to hear. I think heroes as a support unit is a big plus.

Kire
05-31-2009, 03:06 AM
That's nice to hear. I think heroes as a support unit is a big plus.

Like a paladin hero in warcraft 3 ?=) well i like him, as support he gives nice armor aura and heal little but otherwise he suck =P

Konstantin Fomenko
05-31-2009, 09:59 AM
I cant comment about heroes in regular Multiplayer skirmish - this is something we`ll decide on during the beta.

As far as Campaign goes - half of the gameplay is around the heroes.

In MMORTS heroes are essential - every one of your armies needs a hero to lead it, and only your main hero can accept quests and travel to the quests locations.

MMORTS heroes are tough, one can take out about 2 battalions of regular infantry on level 1, but as someone has mentioned - that`s not enough in the game with 1000s of units. To compensate for it we are providing heroes with variety of powerful special abilities.

But it looks like that might still not be enougth. If so - it looks like we`ll have no choice but to go against our storyline and turn heroes into battle-mages, allowing heroes to learn magic.

Phylast
05-31-2009, 01:30 PM
I cant comment about heroes in regular Multiplayer skirmish - this is something we`ll decide on during the beta.

As far as Campaign goes - half of the gameplay is around the heroes.

In MMORTS heroes are essential - every one of your armies needs a hero to lead it, and only your main hero can accept quests and travel to the quests locations.

MMORTS heroes are tough, one can take out about 2 battalions of regular infantry on level 1, but as someone has mentioned - that`s not enough in the game with 1000s of units. To compensate for it we are providing heroes with variety of powerful special abilities.

But it looks like that might still not be enougth. If so - it looks like we`ll have no choice but to go against our storyline and turn heroes into battle-mages, allowing heroes to learn magic.

So that means that the main battle will begin to revolve and focus around the heroes instead of the siege? I'm sure you guys have realized that the more powerful and useful a unit is, the more integral that unit is to decide the outcome of the game. As long as the hero units aren't as important as they were in Warcraft 3, I'll be happy. I'm just worried that the emphasis will be placed on evolving a hero instead of a base.

Kire
05-31-2009, 02:52 PM
Just give them aura that increase armor, health points regeneration, all kind of speed and that kind of stuff. This things are powerful in massive battles.

Jean=A=Luc
05-31-2009, 04:22 PM
I would prefer it if DoF heroes were more akin to "generals" with buff auras or some aoe leadership-based abilities rather than single unit power houses.

I'd rather have no heroes at all than have them be titans that can crush a hundred units by themselves. It just doesn't fit this kind of game imo. Although making them spell-casters could work.

Definitely in favor of an army-centric game rather than a hero-centric one.

kyama
05-31-2009, 04:49 PM
Well, since you still didn't decide on heroes in skirmish mode. I'm hoping they can be taking out. Trust me nobody wants heroes in a army of thousands.

Blatant7
05-31-2009, 05:14 PM
Actually, I beg to differ. I find heroes useful in most RTS games. They can lead armies and often have special and useful abilities. I'm not really sure why you wouldn't want heroes, actually. If you don't like 'em, don't use 'em.

Konstantin Fomenko
05-31-2009, 05:42 PM
Heroes will not be "that" powerful. Don`t forget that you`ll see armies from 100 units early game to 2000 unit strong late game assaulting the castle. Hero if used properly should be able to take out 25 (lvl 1), 75 (mid level), 200 (maxed out). And don`t discount the fact that your regular units also gain experience and improve over time.

crex719
05-31-2009, 06:53 PM
I know we can probably mod our own heroes, but are there any default heroes that are strong against structures?

kyama
05-31-2009, 07:40 PM
Actually, I beg to differ. I find heroes useful in most RTS games. They can lead armies and often have special and useful abilities. I'm not really sure why you wouldn't want heroes, actually. If you don't like 'em, don't use 'em.

Don't get me wrong. I love heroes in warcraft3. But think about it, let's say blizzard adds heroes in starcraft2, that will make the game worse off. Since, starcraft2 is about massive armies. My point was in small battles they are ok. But in an army of thousands, they are just a headache. I love the way this game is heading(an army of thousands), but heroes will just set this game back. Now, in single and mmorts, that's no problem. But in skirimsh mode, that's a different story.

Darvin
05-31-2009, 09:37 PM
but are there any default heroes that are strong against structures?
Although I could be wrong, I believe DoF's structures can only be attacked by siege weapons or (if they're made of wood) by fire. Unless the hero is on fire or some sort of massive troll, I don't think they'd even be able to attack buildings.

crex719
05-31-2009, 10:31 PM
Although I could be wrong, I believe DoF's structures can only be attacked by siege weapons or (if they're made of wood) by fire. Unless the hero is on fire or some sort of massive troll, I don't think they'd even be able to attack buildings.

I actually like that idea. It requires you to actually make siege weapons and not just spamming giant mobs of orcs and such.

Jean=A=Luc
06-01-2009, 04:28 AM
Actually, I beg to differ. I find heroes useful in most RTS games. They can lead armies and often have special and useful abilities. I'm not really sure why you wouldn't want heroes, actually. If you don't like 'em, don't use 'em.

It's not a question of them being useful or not. And you can't "not use them" in multiplayer if your opponent is without leaving yourself in a great disadvantage.

Grizzlez
06-01-2009, 05:12 AM
I would prefer it if DoF heroes were more akin to "generals" with buff auras or some aoe leadership-based abilities rather than single unit power houses.

I'd rather have no heroes at all than have them be titans that can crush a hundred units by themselves. It just doesn't fit this kind of game imo. Although making them spell-casters could work.

Definitely in favor of an army-centric game rather than a hero-centric one.

Totally agree with this point-heroes should be like Kings and Generals who lead armies into battles as skilled fighters that can stand their ground in combat and provide leadership to those around. Having heroes that can take out hundreads in one spell is annoying, makes getting units pointless except as a distraction.

Kell Aset
06-01-2009, 05:53 AM
I'm not very sure about heroes in mmorts mode. Hmn if they will be available then perhaps give everyone chance to create their own avatar in game too.

Gigz
06-01-2009, 07:51 AM
heros that kill armys is really annoying , whoever I hope they re strong in the survival department , that they can live longer and give small bonus to units ^^ else it will really be hero vs hero ^^

Darvin
06-01-2009, 12:26 PM
Probably the best way to keep heroes strong in combat without making them overpowering is to make their defensive capabilities somehow dependent on nearby troops. This would make them many times easier to kill if they were isolated from their army (therefore preventing the "commando hero" thing from ever happening) while also keeping them difficult to kill while they remain within their army.

szebus
06-01-2009, 01:49 PM
A sutch kind of heroe is found in settlers 6 where every heroe has his special ability but in a fight he can't handle more then 1 and a half squad of soldiers allone.

Generation
06-07-2009, 02:29 AM
If you're trying to make this game be realistic dont add things in like from wc3 like flame strike or stuff like that just auras that give ur troops morale and etc.

Phylast
06-09-2009, 12:20 AM
Heroes will not be "that" powerful. Don`t forget that you`ll see armies from 100 units early game to 2000 unit strong late game assaulting the castle. Hero if used properly should be able to take out 25 (lvl 1), 75 (mid level), 200 (maxed out). And don`t discount the fact that your regular units also gain experience and improve over time.

I guess I couldn't ask for much better. I don't remember where it was said in the forums, but one of the mods said that squad experience progression has a probability to create instances like in the movie "300" at Hell's Gates. I thought this aspect and possibility was spectacular. I wonder how experience will be distributed amongst units with and without a hero present. This also makes me wonder if "elite" squads will follow a person in the MMORTS mode (as long as they survive). I'm sure heroes will be an integral part of the game strategy, but I would love to be able to bring some hardcore forces to the battle on a regular basis.

On a separate note, maybe your "Hero class" could even be a small squad that has properties of a normal hero. I like this conceptual option a lot, and I suppose the squad would resemble a Dawn of Warhammer unit with the leader addon. The squad could still accept quests, and spend resources out in the field like normal. Just something to consider.

szebus
06-09-2009, 02:37 AM
... maybe your "Hero class" could even be a small squad that has properties of a normal hero. ...

That would be great, like the generals in Rome:Total War.

Gigz
06-09-2009, 05:53 PM
That would be great, like the generals in Rome:Total War.


not just rome ^^ , i think all the medieval serie , Im most familiar with II and it was really great , specially with all the thing u could achieve with the trait ancillary, specially when u mod them into greatness :P

Jean=A=Luc
06-09-2009, 06:00 PM
On a separate note, maybe your "Hero class" could even be a small squad that has properties of a normal hero. I like this conceptual option a lot, and I suppose the squad would resemble a Dawn of Warhammer unit with the leader addon.

"Hero squads" might not be a bad idea, depending on how 'squad reinforcement' works in DoF.

Kire
06-09-2009, 06:15 PM
Yea hero squad .. lets say around 4 and stronger than normal soldiers and better looking like royal guards .... like this idea =).

kyama
06-09-2009, 06:53 PM
I never liked squads, now i'm judging from dawn of war 2. It might be different in dof. But I would rather they stick to more traditional gameplay.

fyro11
06-10-2009, 04:13 AM
I think only one hero should be permitted per skirmish in light of Konstantin's post.

Phylast
06-10-2009, 10:17 PM
I never liked squads, now i'm judging from dawn of war 2. It might be different in dof. But I would rather they stick to more traditional gameplay.

One of the appeals of general MMO games is that the player is able to develop a character/ avatar and the work that the player puts forth reaps rewards of strength and power. This hero class squad would have all the same properties and functionality of a normal hero class, but it would just have more than a single unit fighting each battle and roaming around. So, a player could still feel that sense of self in that hero class squad. I'm think even 3-4 units to consist of the hero class squad would be really cool to play with. Equipping each of those units with armor, weapons, etc. isn't the point but it would be a cool function. The point is to just look at more than one unit taking out many enemy troops. Stat and equipment gains could act exactly like a normal hero class.

Darathor
06-17-2009, 08:18 AM
They had hero squads in bfme2 expansion and they were cool and all, but i vastly preferred the normal heroes.

Jean=A=Luc
06-17-2009, 10:19 AM
They had hero squads in bfme2 expansion and they were cool and all, but i vastly preferred the normal heroes.

Those were just uber units, nothing more. "Hero squad" or whatever was just a name.

szebus
06-17-2009, 10:23 AM
Aniway, if it is true then the in the game we will be abel to creat from single units squads and then we can creat our own hero squad. We can take that way the heroe and ad to a squad with the best of our soldiers and then here we have a hero squad. :)

Jean=A=Luc
06-17-2009, 11:26 AM
The thing is, iirc units in DoF already move in battalions, not individually.

szebus
06-17-2009, 11:31 AM
There is somewhere in the forum where it says that it will change in the final release or something and the units will be awaylable as individual ones to.

Asatru
06-17-2009, 01:39 PM
I think there gonna be great :P

yeah they cost alot but from what i understand they can also do some awesome stuff, so that should balance it out.

And i like that hero's will grow in the game, always a nice thing to see ^^