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View Full Version : Balance Suggestions!


Konstantin Fomenko
05-28-2012, 09:37 AM
We are planning to release a balancing patch this week, and wanted to see if our players have some feedback. We don`t have a dedicated play-tester team anymore - so usually our balance patches are based on the player feedback.

Please try to be specific, so not just "Elves are OP", but "Elven Mounted Ranger should get his speed and attack reduced"

buddhist23
05-28-2012, 04:28 PM
Make dragons endangered and up their power to godly levels.

GPS51
05-28-2012, 04:54 PM
Over all I find the upgraded slayer unit weak against archers even when micro'd intesively. They just die to fast, I suggest HP buff.

Nibelton
05-28-2012, 05:39 PM
make storage cap much,much bigger about 500K (with all upgrades and houses ofc),maybe even make few lvl of storage upgrade for it

Gruber12
05-28-2012, 06:44 PM
Its not really balance but make dam workers collect from one tree then move onto the next without going all over the map cutting down fifty trees

vicious666
05-29-2012, 01:42 AM
BALANCE :


Fondamental :
1) HEAL ABILITY IN PVP :
Make heal ability work in pvp also (i mean vs players) attack is already problematic we usually start at similar level of strenght, except that defender have : higher position +walls+extra artillery/oil/traps
+ defender can build units (if he have resource) like knights even lev 1 just for block entrance points by putting them on "hold position! allowing his archers-trebuch to dmg you.
also becouse many units like knights lose pretty much 70% of theyr value (they have 2 heal ability and none work )

i dont know if this is a bug or is a choice. (bad choice if is)
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2) DRAGONS LIMIT:
With an army of dragons 4-5 you can "fly" into the enemy central court yard, kill all in, and win the siege, avoiding all the strategy and the sense to develop a city etc etc, good for farm renown, for not talk how is easy with dragons spam range attack and insta-splash groups of 40-50 archers.

Balance suggestion: Not more than 1 dragon for each
type is allowed in any army /city, or 2 dragon max.

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NPC SIEGE NOT A CHALLENGE
2) Make more higher level city, with my army of lev 10+ warrior i can easly enter any npc city with 16x troops with 80% slash 50% pierce res, and annichilate anything together with some area healing, all castle except for the structure, are pretty much same, once you have 60 troops lev 10+ you steamroll them. so you need imho to upgrade the levels or make some castle very hard, with npc lev 20-30-40 etc. (not all 11 or 20 )
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3) QUEST ARE TOO EASY
The quest you receive from the small camp outside your city, are always the same and vs very low level npc lev 1-4, with a dragon lev 1 can SOLO ALONE the entire quest, wich is cool for start, but when you have troops able just to charge them carelessy, become boring

Suggestion:
1) Give more mission option such as levels, easy, medium hard extreme etc
2) Make quest adjust confirmly to your army STR
3) Make more quest simply (alre always 2,, the small city and the open field after a bit become boring

.................................................. .................................................. ...........................................




GAMEPLAY SUGGESTION:
1a) Make alliance in game work plz.
1b) Make allies heal work also on ally unit, i sended a dragon to help my friend during a siege and he was unable to heal it
2) Give common "warrior" some ability, or simply knight our tank/dmg/utility them and they have no sense
3) Give Halbard more dmg/hp, they are useless right now they should be counter to cavalry right now they get trampled.
4) Make elf ballista use wood instead stone
5)Add more co-op options, like co siege vs 1 player wich can call for a friend, open map co-op will be nice also.
6) Make a total pvp map
7) Make ppl wich form an alliance nominate a king
8) Make ppl able to chose a COLOR, orange black red green etc, for theyr army and maybe some banners will be cool. easy to do. just re-color the current army, and use the current banner with another texture
9) Make possible Rename HERO but even units, is hard to find your lev 10 knight who where almost to level up in middle of another 10, only way is enter in city and click them 1 by 1, but if you can name them......
10) Make a sort of player market, ability to sell resource and units also!

NEW FACTIONS:

Dark elf (take current elf make darker make drake-knights like in warhammer fantasy)
Undead (ok will be a lot of graphics work but new castle new map zone? new units? )
Dwarfs (cmon they pretty much already exist -.- you have only to make 2-3 other units)




BUG: To FIX:
1)VERY IMPORTANT :Fix the lost of skill point assignation. is very frustrating re-assign all every time you re log in
2) Fix the npc mission (the one near your base in the small accampment) it happens that after you take the quest, the quest text remain, and you cant do anything anymore you force to re-log
3) Fix the laggy pathfiding
4) Fix the fact that if you in war with a city, but you received a mission in that city, you cant anymore enter and talk with the guy inside for continue the quest.

vicious666
05-29-2012, 01:48 AM
I FORGET, AUGMENT ARMY AND CITY STORAGE.

100K CITY, 10K ARMY.



SMALL FIX: REMOVE THAT HORSEMAN TRAMPLE ALLIES -.- should work only on enemy.

PUT HEAL ABILITY IN PVP, or many troops lose too much sense-abiity, also augment timer of siege to 1h+, really was a shock go in pvp with an army of knight and bam find that they cant heal, losing all theyr sense , considering when i entered into the enemy city they where all already at 50% and my enemy TOTALLY FRESH.

is already hard enter in a city, you will be always in a much worst situation than the defender, small passage = get a lot of dmg from focus of all shooting troops-artillery-oil -fire -dragons in field, cool part of this game is not dragons or monster 1 single units, but infantry vs infantry fights


units balance suggestion: augment a little hp of archers, like +50 (basic )
warriors (the basics shielders) give them a special ability, not only the move slow with shield for extra protection. or knights simply are superior in all

Ghost
05-29-2012, 11:56 AM
Definitely think a limit of 1 dragon per army is a good idea.

Beyond that, until we can have more frequent PvP it's a bit hard to say. My results have been inconsistent in terms of finding what units are OP and UP.

vicious666
05-29-2012, 01:07 PM
Definitely think a limit of 1 dragon per army is a good idea.

Beyond that, until we can have more frequent PvP it's a bit hard to say. My results have been inconsistent in terms of finding what units are OP and UP.

yeah 1-2 should be ok also raise theyr price like 60 for green 120 red 180 imperial

daikl
05-30-2012, 08:10 AM
My suggestions:
More population for orcs,we are supposed to become horde and swarm the enemy.
More mercenaries units:vampires,werewolfs,trolls something to spice things up.
New elite units like dragons and limit them for 1 per army and use rock,paper,scissor implementation(ie cyclops>dragons>hydra>cyclops ,you get the idea,there is plenty of mythos to go around).
It would be cool if in the future we could set our own walls,will lead to some interesting castles.
We need wars between alliances,once you belong in a alliance that has war you can get atacked(and sacked) by enemy,you could request from allies reinforcements(we need some pvp drama:P )

finneas18
06-06-2012, 03:18 PM
OK balance.... I know you devs really hate orks .... but
I just looked at the elfs again..and i dont know if i should laugh or cry....

The following example....

Elfs:

Forrestwarrior trait:

- Reduced costs for all militaryunits
- Reduced buildtime for all military units
-25 % hp armor and dmg bonus
- 50 stamina for all units
- 30 % speedbonus for all cavalery

Now Orcs

Horde trait:

- Reduced costs for all militaryunits
- Reduced buildtime for all military units expect( labors and marauder)
- nothing

Do you maby see any differenc?

Sry this is....
So Please equals those traits or remove that nonsense from elfs or whatever...

2. Archmages trait

100 Staminabonus for all units
20 % dmg bonus and 20 amor for enchanters ....
....

Orc have not a singe trait that improvs any militaryunit and elfs twice....

Sry even our main gametesting company here n germany lost every pvp battle with orcs.... no wonder ...


btw rangeupgrade on riding rangers + speedbonus and epic staminabonus dmg and so on =
hit and run taktik that no one can counter .....

Thats only a conclusion when i saw this .....

I know the elfs should have the best archers and thats ok so.. but i kept laughing when i read the tolltip on orcs which supposed to have the best meleeunits ingame. Then u have berserker
the *most heavly armored* ork infantery 25/0/25 laugh aigan no wealth upgrads to pus this ... any normal elfunit has more defs .... + 120 dmg .... decreased since beta as i see why ever not bad enough i think

And why have orcs no mass bonus on their cavalery..... almost no armor less dmg then other and then the same amountr in each sqad like the other races ...
So this unit is almost useless because any orge runs faster and does more dmg + orges can be wealth upgraded ....

Thats my intensions. I must get that rid of me sry but so muc imbalance since beta and then kept decreasing orc (dmg lowerd on almost all units...) until the last patch.

KurokawaMizaki
06-06-2012, 11:13 PM
finneas18, Elves got a 25-30% HP nerf last week and orcs got a buff of 30% hp at the same time. and the reason for elvens to have so much bonuses is so they can be about equal to each other races. as elvens got max 10-16 soldiers in a unit ors got slightly more at around 24-30 so if they get a huge attack/hp boost they will be op. And most of orcs units are free so it should balance it somewhat and they spawn fast if you have enough tents and warg pens

what orcs needs in my opinion is that the self spawned units that is counted as 0.5 pop should also be counted in army making aswell. so instead of a 60 goblin unit max it should be 120 units for the 60 pop slots as a example that should balance the orcs out abit as atm they count as 1 pop when you make an army. additional balances like max amount of units of same type might have to be added if orcs gets a way huge power to maybe around 60 goblin units for 30 pop(in armies) and then maybe depending on the other unit types you put in the army, you'll add additional balance issues on the other units like lets say ogres max 5-10 in an army or make them take up 2 pop slots.


And the rest should also go for the other racees a set number of max amount of same units in an army. example 16 of each type or something like that. And then depending on the units potentional to be op lower the max number

Example
Dragons: 1 in army. 2-5 in town
Dwarven rifles: 2-5 in army. 10 in town
Hero type units: 1 in army each. 3 of each in town
Dwarven cannon: 5 in army, 10 in town
balance will be a issue for quite some time ahead ;)

daikl
06-07-2012, 04:59 AM
I agree with finneas but first i'd rather have some bugs fixed like regions traits working for forrest orcs(dmg bonus for impaler/marauder not working),maybe make the berzerkers range/melee hybrids like they were supposed to be(with small range ofc),maybe change the military bonus on orc swamp(imho more dmg/hp for goblins is useless),and i didnt test yet but i dont think some entrenched(trait) bonuses work.
About berzerkers,make them as their name suggest(big damage,low armor),sorry finneas but they dont need armor,they need damage and speed,they need to truely go berzerk.
Kurokawa are you for real,you actualy suggested that we get more goblins in army(i for one dont use goblins in war armies) and fewer ogres?you want me to go to war riding on bicycles rather then tanks?get real dude,i strongly suggest you pvp with goblins(even lots of them) then come back and post.I agree massing same unit tactic should be limited in some way but not the way you suggested,its just bad imo.

KurokawaMizaki
06-07-2012, 07:14 AM
I just made a valid point and an example on a solution other then buffing all units in orcs. Goblins are not strong i know that, but what is Orcs main battle strenght it isn't in armour and weapons its in pure numbers.
Its what I personaly think, free units should take 0.5 pop instead of 1 pop for that you get 60 soldiers against someone who has 10-16 soldiers(elven) for same pop. and lvl 5 golbins all focused on attack and all upgrades done. they are fast deadly and lots of them, and be a real threat liek a large packof pirayas
the only other solution i would think of other then that is to increase the units size to 40-60 without changing the pop on goblins only.

this is how I atlest view orcs. I never said it was an optimal solution. As i have a orc and elven town. And i would think it would raise the fun level of playing orcs or against them. as the goblins will be more of a worry as of now they are just walking meat with a rubber hammer when going aginst upgraded human/elven units. pvping with goblins as they are now and make them as the core of an army isnt really possible atm. 6 units of my grandmasters(lvl5) would i think take out 2-3 whole squads each, and be abit over half strenght then my enchanters would come and heal up them to full strenght again


the only problem i would see with my idea with 0.5 pop s that it limits to more powerfull computer too handle all units on highest graphics

and daikl I dont think anyone in here would like to go against a army of 60 ogres. i would deffinatly not as i done a few ogree armys and they crush everything in their path if you have good micromanagement.

limitting every unit type i think is 1 step closer to a balanced gameplay
and limiting unit types should happend for all races

daikl
06-07-2012, 08:07 AM
I have all 3 orc towns,i played orcs in every game i could(war3,dow,l2,skyrim etc) and i know what an orc army should be like.
Your ideea is to FORCE orc players to use goblins,is the faction name ORC or GOBLIN? you must be confused.You are just suggesting the orc player just mass an army and simply rush?..no no..let me rephrase that...mass a goblin army and rush,right?
Lets give a quick example,in starcraft(first one) you had zerg,that made use of swarming tactics and they had zerglings(we can compare them to goblins in dof),and i dont think in mid-late game the zerg player used many of them(even at all) or made his army out of many,little and squishi units;haveing a faction that can swarm an enemy doenst actualy mean you only use that tactic or have the worst units(again with starcraft-they had the worse(zergling) and the best units for melee(ultralisk)).Your ideea to make us use goblins as core units for army is a TERRIBLE one. And i really like your thoughts on the orc play style,mass an army and rush the enemy,why not just say that every orc player out there is brain dead,i think every player who plays orcs should have as a forum title -cactus or plant -something that doesnt even speak just grunts and smashes keyboard.
So let me make another suggestion in regards to this problem.Orcs force should be in melee and the orc strategy should be to get the enemy in melee combat where their strenghts and numbers count.
Troops that are are armored and used for drawing fire(SLAYERS not goblins ffs) should move slower imo and the Shock Troops like berzerkers should move a little faster and give them more damage and health since their armor is just pathetic.
Orc cavalry is just useless right now imho,why not give them an option to snare enemy troops(use of net,glue,whatever),that would make orc use more strategies.
Long story short,if you kite my army and keep me at a distance well done you should win,but if i get you in melee(as a orc) i should have the upper hand.
My 2 cents,i welcome input.

finneas18
06-07-2012, 01:05 PM
KurokawaMizaki

Example
Dragons: 1 in army. 2-5 in town
Dwarven rifles: 2-5 in army. 10 in town
Hero type units: 1 in army each. 3 of each in town
Dwarven cannon: 5 in army, 10 in town
balance will be a issue for quite some time ahead

fully agreed.

I just wan t a eqall trait like forestwarriors for orcs because horde brings yu nothing you have any ressource probems to need that and the already have 2 economic traits. I Just wanted a militarytrait like the other races...

And pls spare me these runnig ohnehits named goblins. They are useless in all ways.
Any other unit is more than twice usefull so the 6 extra numbers mean nothing.
And i don t care that they cost nothing. There is a cap limit for each army and pvp is almos always equall in amrystrengh. And in those battle it doesn t matter how cheap a unit but how effectiv.

The only usefull units after the patch is the orge and the salyer now. anything else diess in seconds saw that when i attak an elf with standard values without forrestwaariors and upgrades aiganst my lvl 5 units fully upgraded -.-

So berserkers cant be upgraded but grand masters can be upgraded....
orc cavalry still only 10 unts in sqad as well no upgrads in anyway.... but elven cavalery can be upgraded

Bu it would be enough for me when orcs get a trait like forestwarriors even the humans got one as well.

finneas18
06-07-2012, 01:09 PM
Its a simple caculation when your units are twice or even third as weak as the other units then yo need at least as twice or as third on nubers but you have only half more than those strong units or even the same number (cavalery)
Its not all about mass its about class as well...

finneas18
06-07-2012, 02:43 PM
Long story short,if you kite my army and keep me at a distance well done you should win,but if i get you in melee(as a orc) i should have the upper hand.

And thats the point. The description of the orcs promis the best meleeunits ingame.
So Orc should have the strongest melee units as elven already have superior rangeunits.

Orcs already have weakes economics and strongholds and are supposed to be an offensive race ..
so they should have at least one advantage there ...

Now they are stuck at heavily armored elve units with more dmg while their superior archers cut your armys down ....

GPS51
06-07-2012, 03:32 PM
And thats the point. The description of the orcs promis the best meleeunits ingame.
So Orc should have the strongest melee units as elven already have superior rangeunits.

Orcs already have weakes economics and strongholds and are supposed to be an offensive race ..
so they should have at least one advantage there ...

Now they are stuck at heavily armored elve units with more dmg while their superior archers cut your armys down ....

I couldn't agree more.

Zekarde
06-07-2012, 03:47 PM
I strongly disagree with the constant spamming of 'unit limits in armies' by several people, it isn't necessary, it doesn't make the game more strategic and if there is an underlying problem with the units in question it does not fix that problem. Massing large or expensive units is risk/reward, if you want to do it be my guest, but you will lose huge amounts of wealth doing it and it will take you all day to upkeep and maintain that practice. Meanwhile I will farm far more rewards with expendable armies.

Dragon armies are no different, as it stands they would level up rapidly and jump into the 1200+ region of str rating. If dragons need to be nerfed, then lets have them nerfed; I would suggest putting base arrow resist to 60 on all dragons and to lower the range of red and royal dragons by 15%.

Orcs are hard to say, I don't have quite enough experience with them but from what I see most people want a complete overhaul of orc army mechanics; this seems excessive. They could probably use a few more % on resists and hp, or a reminder that they can hire mercenaries from other races and use cavalry.

PVP sieges could use some balancing.
As it stands if anyone was to attack a fully upgraded human settlement they would be greeted with the matchmaking systems army, spike traps, a dozen trebuchet, 90 population, the ability to produce new armies mid battle, boiling oil, stone tippers galore, multiple layers of walls and towers they have to pass through... and a time limit.

daikl
06-07-2012, 04:16 PM
Orcs are hard to say, I don't have quite enough experience with them but from what I see most people want a complete overhaul of orc army mechanics; this seems excessive. They could probably use a few more % on resists and hp, or a reminder that they can hire mercenaries from other races and use cavalry.


Whats the point of playing the orc faction if i use other units? And when did you last tried orc cavalry?I had 6 mounted slayers and 5 mounted impalers decimated by elven reinforcements(a few mounted GM and a few mounted rangers),i think i managed to kill maybe 2 squads and mine were all destroyed.
As you said you don't have enough experience and i strongly recommand you play the race before makeing suggestions.
And its not just those fixes,orc have bugs(forrest orc military bonus doenst work,resources reset at 7k to name a few)
Oh and did you check the orc stronghold in comparison with other races?FFS we dont even get one complete wall(and even that's made of wood).
Give the orcs some love!

Ghost
06-07-2012, 04:31 PM
I've played all three races, and I do have to agree that Orcs seem a little underpowered. I've yet to find a way to use their strengths as well as I can use the strengths of Elves and Men.

With men I apply superior cavalry to the enemy's weak spots.

With Elves, I set up a hard line with heavy infantry to hold them at a distance, then rain down arrows with superior archers along with flank attacks from hidden units.

I've yet to figure out how to use the Orcs correctly other than throwing ogres at my enemy.

Zekarde
06-07-2012, 06:50 PM
Whats the point of playing the orc faction if i use other units? And when did you last tried orc cavalry?I had 6 mounted slayers and 5 mounted impalers decimated by elven reinforcements(a few mounted GM and a few mounted rangers),i think i managed to kill maybe 2 squads and mine were all destroyed.

I suppose I could have phrased that more clearly, when I play other races I use the orc units to empower my ranks, as they have some very powerful units like the popular ogre and the siege ram that outmatch the closest human counterparts even without upgrades. The mounted units may not stand toe to toe with other races very well, but if you have enemies with heavily armored foot soldiers or archer lines they will do the same thing they do for everyone else. They also have great spear, that would serve well against reinforcements like you mention.

As you said you don't have enough experience and i strongly recommand you play the race before makeing suggestions.

I note this because I am unable to tell the devs "orcs need this buffed, this nerfed, ect." in a more precise manner. Not that I haven't used them before(or aren't right now for that matter).

And its not just those fixes,orc have bugs(forrest orc military bonus doenst work,resources reset at 7k to name a few)
Oh and did you check the orc stronghold in comparison with other races?FFS we dont even get one complete wall(and even that's made of wood).
Give the orcs some love!

Bugs are bugs,(swat!) and the stronghold is a great suggestion for this thread, but I do agree that our orcish friends need some love; the question really is in what way and how much. :D

daikl
06-08-2012, 06:41 AM
I read some lore about orcs in this game and i want to make a suggestion.
Change the Marsh Orcs military bonus,you said they were massive in size(more hp or dmg or both maybe ) and have best mounted cavalry of orc,yet you gave them more hp and damage for goblins...goblins?!...come on,stay true to the lore/description.

finneas18
06-08-2012, 05:28 PM
In early beta they had cavalerybonus more hp and dmg but it was removed....
As they removed the armor bonus on some units on the desert orcs
Why ever not bad enough i think so...

daikl
06-10-2012, 08:58 AM
Can we get a patch preview?
Can the devs tell us what they think of our ideas and what might/might not get implemented?

aramsm
06-14-2012, 06:35 PM
So now that Im back... Hi guys,

First to say is that I agree 98% with vicious666, and then with daikl about orcs and then with Zekarde about limit units type. IM STRONGLY AGAINST THIS! We should not have any limit and build our army as we want. And like he says there as a high risk/reward on make an only type army. I want the freedom to choose how my army should be and seeing ppl complainning about this makes me think that they dont know (or dont thought enought) how the army strenght system works. If you make an army with 10 dragons do you really think that you can find any army, like lvl 1 army? No! But I wont extend myself too much about this...(if you guys want to discuss about this I can tell all the reasons I think this "one type army" is not a smart choice, even for dragons).

About gameplay:
Like vicious666 said we need a pve improvement. More levels, more kind of quests, more options of coop, harder units etc. But I would even go farther: although units have levels, their stats are always low and dont match with their level: make them match and make them use abilities and strategies, like "oh Im dieing, I will retreat to rest and heal" or "dam Im being hit by arrows, lets get off archers sight" and then "player's unit are weak now, CHARGE!". They hardly charge or attack in an organized way, when they attack they do that in an indivual way like if they arent a whole army but just a group of guys there. They should choose what unit they should attack like cavalry against archers and healers etc, and focus on our siege weapons on sieges.

Plus, we should have roamming NPC armies, like in Mount and Blade (I dont know if this is possible in DoF but Im suggesting anyway) and be allowed to conquer NPC villages/towns.

Dungeons and bosses are needed too and that might be connected with pvp and territory control. For example a dungeon in rollingplains: only players/guilds that own that zone can have access to it. Bosses and dungeons should give gear... but I know that this is another topic to discuss and maybe impossible to be implemented.

That is my suggestion about the gameplay, wich I think you guys should pay attention because the game is good, is fun but it dont hold the players for so long and that is because there is nothing to do before you build up your town or when no one is online or even when you cant find PvP. Even pvp is meaningless and could be boring after some time. So yeah pve and territory control should fix that.

About units:

Orcs are a joke, really. They are terrible weak, terrible. I didnt play too much with them, even after the patch, but I can say they are weak and their city is un-defendeable. Seriously, a wall with 2,5k of hp... do you think it can stand for how long? And its not even completed wall. To defend this they would need like AEWSOME units, wich they havent. And even if they have what is the point to siege orcs if all the battle will be out walls??? I suggest to give up of the idea that they must have sh*t walls... maybe two walls with a fewer less HP than elven and men would be good, but not "one incomplete wood wall with 2,5k".

About units, Idk now but I doubt that HP boost fixed the problem. The thing is that in DoF I found that armor is the skill that is most powerful. Doesnt matter how much damage or hp your enemie's units have, if you have 70+ armor they WILL die. And that is what happen. Elves can reach 75 armor in all categories, with GM fence skill they take 95, if orcs do 600 damage my GM will suffer 30 of damage (with GM fence) and 150 without it... and orcs dont do 600 of damage. Also they have a pretty low armor. So when they start scratching my units armor they should be dead (50% of armor if I remember and 65 for slayers).

My question is: should armors be in % or just damage reduction like -10, -20 etc?? I really not sure about this, I want to know what you guys think about it because sometimes I dont think that an unit with 600 damage should have its dps reduced to 30... but I really dont know.

Well I would like to test more orcs against someone (maybe daikl who is one that play with them) because Idk how they are working after the last patch. But still there is main concern about orcs, and this upset me a little:
THEY NEED HEALERS. Why do you guys added new heroes and didnt add any way to orcs heal themself?? I know that you guys want to add shamans with magic, but even so this is not excuse for dont add any healer for them, even a provisory one.

Bugs:
All this we have to keep in mind that there are bugs. I mean is hard to know if elves need some nerf since their fire shots are not working, hidden units can be seen by players and fog of war is not working. I also getting my resources resetted when I reach 7k (thx daikl for the tip, I didnt notice that this happens when I reach 7k but I can see that now - but Im elf so its not only for orcs).

-Fix fog of war (high priority), so we can make strategies (like flank attacks, surprises and traps).
-No fire in water (marsh lands get fire).
-All that vicious666 said before about bugs.
-Fix elven fire shots and sunstone (its not healing).
-Fix elven formations.

daikl
06-14-2012, 07:07 PM
Since i can't pvp(out of sync,stuck loading screen) we'll just have to see what we can do.
Nice ideas,the armor suggestion is actualy very good.
Just because they are orcs doesn't mean they are dumb and can't build walls(ie Black Gate of Mordor from LoTR);i know,i know we are the offensive races(on paper at least) but offensive doesn't mean stupid,why would i build a wooden wall here,then some palisade,then other wooden wall,its like screaming "hey attackers why bother with 3k wall,come here and destroy 2x900hp pallisades,they dont even have anti-siege mecanics,like stone tippers".Of the 3 regions the Forrest Orcs have the best 'looking' fortress ,best looking as in it's walls look complete.Maybe in the future you could redesign some of them(marsh,desert)
Oh and talk to us guys,we really wana help make this game great,tell us what you think so far.

aramsm
06-14-2012, 07:55 PM
Yeah daikl. Because the way it is now its too armor centered, and most new players doesnt know that and spent points in other skills. Only archers and healers you should do that. If we have a different mechanic we could think of wich unit we will invest on armor and wich we dont. For example: every unit should start with some armor, tanks with higher values and archers with lower (like it is now). Then for each point you spent you increase this value (we should have a mechanic that make each point more expensive than the first one or more ineffiecient). The thing is if its not % some troops wont cause damage, so you might think: oh this unit I have to focus X points on damage in case my enemy has 1/2X point on armor, and that other unit Ill focus 2X points on damage etc. With % system 600 of damage, 500, 400 and 300 will cause 150, 125, 100 and 95 of damage respectively against a melee unit with 75% of armor (in any categorie). So, if you look closely 300 is half of 600 and cause half damage (95), but if the armor was just a negative value, if you get a 300 armor a 300 attack wont cause any damage but still a 600 will cause 300 instead of 150.

But Idk if its better, because could be a little frustating to cause no damage and lost all your army... However, worried about that, ppl would probably spend points on damage. But still there is a risk that everyone spent points on armor and none can deliver any damage. Maybe % mechanic is indeed better, but there is something wrong with it or with damage because DPS units, like blademasters, die really fast and my tanks are always more powerful and deadly (when I send them its over, or I kill everyone or I loose the battle).

Guys (staff) if you can help us here, like say what you have already tested, show all units stats since I dont know for sure orcs and men stats (cap stats), what are your concepts about the game like "we want that but not this".

All in all I can conclude two things: 1) fog of war need to be fixed, 2) and orcs need healers to get start in pvp.

daikl
06-14-2012, 11:04 PM
Orc healers are not a priority in my opinion as an avid orc player.I'd rather have them make orc be true to the lore.
>i still hope to see hybrid melee/range orc berzerkers(Xman wishlist:p )(this could be easily implemented as a skill with cooldown,like dragon fireball,i press skill button,select target and my berzerkers fire a volley of arrows)
>orc cavalry doesnt get any upgrades and its pretty weak,didnt used them that much but when i did they performed unsatisfactory
>orc berzerkers could use some upgrades as well

Your ideas aramsm about armor made me think and i've got some ideas,if they'll make sense i'll update the post later.

aramsm
06-14-2012, 11:36 PM
Believe me daikl, no one can stand a fight without healers. My healers really save my units lives. Maybe its not a priority for you but speaking in general orcs are not a race that I recomend for a new guy to play or do pvp. I want to see more orcs, I think I had only 1 or 2 fights, but for that happen they must have a healer for start.

I have to admit that when I was writting I had stopped to think again and got confused. I think my idea is bad, but if I could inspire you thats great. Waiting to hear you.

daikl
06-15-2012, 12:14 AM
My idea was this,instead of % reduction we could use a value,a rateing,whatever you wana name it.
Lets say if you have :
-between 100-200 the unit has light armor
-between 200-300 the unit has medium armor
-and over 300 is heavy
Now the catch.
>if unit has light armor it moves faster,attacks faster,but receives more damage
>if unit has heavy armor it moves slower,attacks slower,but receives less damage
>medium armor is between.
Now you might ask,but hey dude we have different types of damage.I have a solution for this also.We can use material types for armor(bronze,iron,steel,mithril ) and we could upgrade units at blacksmith.
Example:
Mithril has values(75% for pierce and 40% for slash)
Unit1 has armor rateing of 100.Unit2 has 80 damage and slash damage.Unit3 has 80damage and pierce damage.
Unit1 vs Unit2 [Unit1 true armor vs pierce will be 75(75% of 100rateing) and when hit by Unit2 will receive 5 damage]
Unit1 vs Unit3[Unit1 true armor vs slash will be 40(40% of 100rateing) and when by Uni3 will receive 40 damage]
This idea still needs improvment but could eliminate the situation where units with big damage do very little damage,units in heavy will tank better but depending on their armor rateing they won't perform the same vs a unit with 600 dmg as one with 100 (imo one of the flaws of current system) and not to mention the customization available.
This is just an idea in progress and as a programmer myself i know this could potentialy be a lot of work so i say again,just an idea :)
Any thoughts on this?

Vind
06-15-2012, 12:46 AM
I haven't played that much but considering game mechanics and orc lack of healing, maybe that could be compensated by giving them some kind of natural regeneration.

Also the talk about armor/damage should take into consideration that magic system was put aside while more important issues are resolved. When you place icon over unit attack number you see all kind of attacks, fire, electricity....I'm sure that some units were planed around those kind of damages/resistances, and with those features not implemented whole system needs redoing.

I do agree about armor resistance being more powerful than damage. Elven grandmasters have high survivability and blade storms seem like a squishy squids i need to replace them after every battle. So i stopped using them.
This could probably be compensated by implementing new kind of stat like "power" that ignores armor buff, say unit A has 50% slashing res and unit B has 10% power, when B attacks A using slashing damage, unit A slashing resistance is reduced to 40%.

Im speaking strictly from elven PVE point of view as i haven't played any other races.

Konstantin Fomenko
06-15-2012, 10:08 AM
Gentlemen - awesome suggestions, just spend 20 minutes catching up with post. I`ll see about getting first round of your suggestions into the next patch - probably starting with Orc Healing. Please keep the discussions going!

Couple of things I wanted to mention though:
-We cant change the system from % of damage to a set value, however we can do damage multipliers - like certain unit having 5X damage bonus against certain unit - and that can help with pushing the system more towards RPS
-Both Armour and unit damage is in one of several categories - I`m sure most of you already figured this out, but this is what most of our balancing is based on. So or example archers do pierce damage, and heavy armored units have really high pierce armour and almost take no damage from archers.

aramsm
06-15-2012, 10:47 AM
I haven't played that much but considering game mechanics and orc lack of healing, maybe that could be compensated by giving them some kind of natural regeneration.

This would be awesome and solve the problem.

Also the talk about armor/damage should take into consideration that magic system was put aside while more important issues are resolved. When you place icon over unit attack number you see all kind of attacks, fire, electricity....I'm sure that some units were planed around those kind of damages/resistances, and with those features not implemented whole system needs redoing.

True.

I do agree about armor resistance being more powerful than damage. Elven grandmasters have high survivability and blade storms seem like a squishy squids i need to replace them after every battle. So i stopped using them.

I actually like the way Reverie thought about amor and damage, with categories etc. I dislike the cisor-paper-stone style. I dont know for sure what cause this, but this is my main concern: baldestorms are supposed to be deadly and high damage, though they are inefficient, they die fast and in the other hand GM should only hold units and gives some damage but, because they survive longer, they kill them all. I think this happens for the other reaces too. Its pretty much like you say: when you notice, other soldiers start to be useless and you stop using them (although I still use baldemasters and Sentries, but have to say that baldemasters dont help me much in the battles).

Maybe the difference between tanks and DPSers is not enough. GM starts with 120 damage and 600 hp, 50/0/50 armor (I dont remember well) and blade with 210, 300 hp and ... errr... some armor. I think they should start with 310 of damage and GM with 90. 300 of hp is too low, maybe they could have 600 or even more but armor cap restricted to 45% for slashing and piercing.

If I remember well GM also can get 75% against blunt damage, I think they shouldnt, and blades could get more armor against blunt (becuase they probably wear a softer armor and this should reduce the impact). I think maceman and sentries should have a abilitie to reduce tanks armor by half for 10-15s, like if they screwed their armor. But I dont know if you guys can do an abilitie that only works against one type of unit, or maybe it should works against anything anyway.

Just a off topic and silly suggestion: we should have foot sounds when troops walk. That would be awesome.

daikl
06-15-2012, 11:52 AM
Actualy i like the scissor-paper-stone implementation.It makes you use different troops and adapt.
Also about bladestorms,i used them just in singleplayer and they are pretty good but i think you aramsm missed the point,they were ment to be used against archers/light infantry or as flank troops,you can't use them as your front line(more on this after further testing)
Oh and 600hp bladestorm is a bit much(op!!!)
We need some difference between troops that tank and troops that do damage(more on this later,need to think more about it).
I'll keep the following suggestions just for orc,since they are my main race and i have an idea how they should function.Players that main other races are welcome to bring their input on the respective race.Let's start(units that were not mentioned either they dont need any modification or coudn't think of one atm):
>orc slayers - in my opinion they could use a boost of 50-100 stamina,they are the main force,i use them to soften up enemy ranks and draw archer fire using hive formation+cover but sometimes due to lack of more stamina they tend to brake formation and cover before my other troops come in.
>orc berzerkers - they should be true to their namesake,true BERZERKERS; starting with 25/0/25 is just pathetic,they need more starting armor like 50/10/50 and here's the catch,when they use the berzerk skill(rage) make the armor drop like -30/0/-30 from current values and the 100hp penalty should be removed(if i go crazy im reckless but i don't just happen to lose life)
>orc mounted slayers/impalers -no upgrades,low stats and useless as hell.They could use the howl ability of normal wargs and some bonus armor upgrades.Need to test the more.
>orc marauder(the archer unit) - ok so im an orc,im no elf thus not so accurate and maybe can't shoot so far,but damn im strong;imo orc archers should get more damage and beside pierce damage maybe even crush damage(i read some lore that tikken dal orcs train to shoot through trees =that means force and damage)

And offtopic/silly suggestion:how about some new elite creatures besides dragons,i personally would like to have a hydra,maybe a cyclops(hell i could even draw the concept art if you guys agree :P )

Konstantin Fomenko
06-15-2012, 12:03 PM
Bladestorms are more of a hit and run kind of troop. After you get them to level 3 and upgrade their Stamina they become really useful.

They have extremely good attack but their main strength is the whirlwind ability. The best use is to change to Wind formation, cloak, run into the mass of enemies, perform whirlwind twice, and escape. With this strategy they can easily take out 2 battalions for each blade-storm battalion with minimal damage.

aramsm
06-15-2012, 01:29 PM
Well World of Battles use a cisor-paper-stone mechanic. It works but the battle is a mess because its like a dog and cat play: you send your lancers against cavalry, the enemy retreat the cavalry and send his swordsman, then you retreat your lancers and send your cavalry against his swordsman, than he retreat his swordsman and send his lancers.... Basically troops get some time to engage because ppl keep avoinding each other most because one type of unit is 100% useless against the other. We could have weakness, ok, but not at the point to be useless. The strategy is resumed to that: who can get the enemy's army with its weakness wins. It works and its fun, however its annoying sometimes (plus there is the pay-win wich ruins the game).

I did use bladestorms to flank, although is hard to say that I truely flanked someone since he can see me approaching. My front line is always GM, but I cant say or I cant see that actually thanks to the blademasters I killed that squad/army. Whirlwind is awesome but its hard to micromanage units with the pathfind that we have, I mean some units stay behind and you dont really know when you are hitting the enemy or just the air (maybe a sound effect that you hitting should help). Anyway, for the reasons listed below, if you only PvEd so any unit should fit. But in PvP I dont feel they are needed or useful, if they will give me some hard work to manage I just send GM and over this **** hehehe. Like I said, when GMs are engaging then its over.

Maybe a HP boost is too much, but a damage boost and a damage nerf for all tanks should reduce this unbalance between tanks and dpsers.

Konstantine, I dont think cloaking is working against players since in PvP I cloacked some units to sneak my enemy's dragon and kill it, but he might had noticed because he retreat his dragon as soon as I had started walking in its direction, and again the fog of war... Also I wont use any elve formation anymore since squads get stucked when we change formations. I did it sometimes before and lost the entire squads! I still think that a boost on their damage would be nice because like now they have low HP for melee units and a low armor at the beginning, so I think its too much risk and I start spending points on armor and damage. I would never think on stamina. With a boost on damage I could think on stamina then because they wont survive for too long in a close combat but they can still be deadly. But I will try, now that you give me this tip, investing on stamina.

Im saying that they need this boost but this is not only for bladestroms, of corse, also other units but I dont have enough knowledge. We still need to discuss about men race, maybe Ghost could help but I cant see him here.

Btw, I really bought the idea that orcs should have health regen. Sorry, I havent read the lore so I dont know if this fit with it. But we have HP regen already, maybe orcs should start with it , and at high levels and have its cap, for orcs, increased. That should fix orcs tanks too since they cant have nice armors but healing per second should make them live and hold longer. We could have healers too, maybe that would be easier to implement and balance, but if they have hp regen boosted that would make them exclusive, I mean would make them different than other races, like a special feature.

I was also thinking about their defences and I thought that they should get an extra wall, since its wood wall and should be easier to do another and another. Then they could set boddies trap between the second and the third wall and incomplete palisade just to make harder to enemy's troop walk between them (or just the boddies would do that?).

Also (I think this is ask for too much but I really think its needed) we should have a fortress in the center of our towns, not something hard to get in, is more to protect against siege ammo, something small not to protect the whole army but your reserves because with siege weapons you can kill ppl inside the town (although Idk if this is bad). Well Im saying this because I can remember some sieges that I had against you and Ghost and sometimes it was safier outside my walls than inside. I thnik siege weapons should be more focused on destroying walls than killing everyone inside town. Maybe a range nerf would fix this too, or could you make the ammo fly less higher so them have a minimal chance to pass over the walls?? And it would be nice too if attackers could win by killing town's advisor instead of having to stay at the middle of the town (though alternative way of winning - reducing your enemy's army - should be kept).

daikl
06-15-2012, 02:26 PM
First,what is your definition of tanks? Mens elite unit(knight) and elven elite unit(GM) could be considered 'tanks' because of high armor and sustain abilities,but orc elite unit(berzerkers) have low armor and they act more like damage dealers.In terms of pure armor and soaking damage slayers could be said to be the 'tanks' of orcs.
Now about this scissor/rock/paper implementation,its not like swords>pike>cav>swords and thats it,pikes can beat swords,swords can beat cavalry,its a matter of who is better agains who;did you notice on unit description it says "Efficient vs ... , Medium vs ... ,Weak vs ... " ; that is why i said the system works.On this topic,maybe they could use multipliers versus what that unit is good against (ie Efficient vs swords = 3x damage vs them, Medium =1x damage or normal ,weak is 1/2 and Very Efficient maybe 4x or 5x).
I kinda agree that orc strongholds need a better look,something maybe like Pultakk,that stronghold is f*kin amazing(not a priority but something i really would like to see).
I think the current siege system is ok,you can always counter with catapults on towers or catapults inside own town or ride out and meet enemy.Im honestly more afraid of wildfire damage then the damage the catapults make on my troops.You as a defender have better advantage then atacking army(you have walls,higher ground,counter-siege mechanics like oil,spike traps etc,army waiting inside) and when enemy attacks it usualy is through a small gap where you can face him with armor in front and archers in the back(watch 300 and get my point).
Anyway fell free to debate me.

aramsm
06-15-2012, 04:22 PM
Yeah I understand that berzerkers are not the tank of orcs, Im not saying that. Indeed define what is a tank is complicated, but the word comes from the military vehicule, tanks, however the real tanks are high armored, faster than men and have a great DPS, and in RPG games tanks mean someone that could hold damage and thats all, actually not RPG but D&D because in other system that I played (Daemon) tanks were strong and high constitution persons, and if you were strong you would have some bonusses on damage etc but this is not the case hehehe. Indeed I mean units that can hold lines, like GMs and Knights. Slayers are not at the same level as them, at least not before the patch...

About the scissor I was just underline that to Reverie be cautious to not fall in the same trap. But I think that they already tried that restricting some units caps armor. Still, I feel Konstantine have to let me a hand here because I dont know how the multipliers would work etc.

Yeah, I was much referring to the fire that siege weapons cause. I dont think this should happen - if we have walls is to protect, so how could that not work? I said that because I lost a fight, when actually even me and Ghost thought that I would win; he simple couldnt do thing to me and my walls, but he killed some of my troops from outside my walls and then he won (he was surprise). I succeed defending my town but he won because he killed some troops and put me a little outnumbered. Since you know that, you can just stay outside, with your army around your sieges and bombarding the town. I agree that you CAN bombard the towns, but there is always a stronghold to protect the lords, ladies, stock pile etc. and we dont have that in DoF. Like I said, is not to protect your whole army but just a part of it, and maybe the advisor.

I also think that towers and threants should be immune to arrows. They have like 70% armor or something against piercing, but seriously I cant see how arrows could take a tower down. In DoF I have to build like 6 threants just for one or two actually reach the walls and then my units have to rush to climb it before archers take it down. Catapults, traps, fire and cavalry should counter that not archers. Well, maybe immune could be too extreme but a boost of 80-90 or an upgrade.

daikl
06-15-2012, 08:07 PM
Aramsm you have worker units that can fight fire,i think the mistake was on your part.The part where you say we need something to protect the adviser+some units you might refere to a keep(like dagbor has) and that would mean a redesign of current strongholds.Don't get me wrong,i'd like to see that,a much more complex castle would lead to more interesting sieges.
Yeah i agree,towers and trents(siege engines that can latch to walls) should be more resistant to arrows but more vulnerable to fire.
Btw it would be cool if some units(1 is enough) had some kind of rope mecanic so they could climb walls.
Regarding balance that could easily be fixed here's a list for orc,can't speak for other races yet:
>more stamina for slayers
>drop the 100 health penalty on Rage ability(used by berzerkers and main hero)
>add Howl ability to orc cavalry and maybe up the armor a little
>more damage(maybe even crush damage) for marauders
Hopeing i will eventualy be able to pvp so more feedback then.

aramsm
06-15-2012, 11:07 PM
Well elven workers cant fight fire. It dont need to be something complex, I just want that my enemy first have to break my walls before start killing all my troops. Maybe the fact that elves have their fire shots bugged, so it make defensive bolt throwers pratically useless, make some difference in my gameplay.

KurokawaMizaki
06-15-2012, 11:18 PM
aramsm I agree with you on most parts.

Bladestorms i really like them fast unit and do alot of dmg but is abit weak on armour side and hp, its all fine with me. cause you need tactics like the one konstantin said. thereare some problems with hide ability in pvp that could be adjusted. and that your bladestorms needs to be stationary too do the whirlwind

Formations for elvens is not something i use at all for my elvens as both formations makes the units unmovible and unable to cancel the formations. lost alot of units when siegeing npc town and i tried both formations.

Seige equipment for both attack and defense i think should be 100% resistance towards normal arrows. but be vurnible against melee/seige units/flameing arrows and of course hero units

The reason you lost that fight was cause you didnt manual use downpour from your wardens. that is one of the draw backs with elvens as its need to be used manualy while Humans and Orcs can do it on auto if they set some workers on firefighting

aramsm
06-16-2012, 01:41 AM
Oh so that is what "Downpour" mean. Sorry for that.

Yeah now that Konstatine said I tried that and it "worked": my units were cloaked but the player could see me, I was comming from behind so he saw me comming and instead of retreat he tried to attack me, because he didnt know about whirlwind probably. But it worked fine.

I did some pvp just right now (4am here) and I have to say that its more balanced than before. I played against human and my GM didnt own him, I lost some fights too, wich wasnt happening so often in the past. I think this is because of the nerf that GMs had and also because of the fix of skill reset bug since most ppl didnt know about it and probably went to fight with no skill points spents.

My concerns about the siege could be because of the fire shots that are bugged for elves, so its harder to defende ourself. But I think boost towers and threants are still valid.

Ill play more to look deeper into balance stuff. Hope I could attack daikl tomorrow.

Is there a way to stop cavalry, when they are charging, with lancers/sentries?