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Seykon
03-28-2012, 02:46 PM
i think something needs to be done about the dragons in the game. every pvp army seems to have more than one on the battle field and no matter what you do when it says the armies are even your units are totally out gunned. ive had 5 units of knights on one royal dragon for the dragon to just set fire to the earth around it killing all of them all most instantly. with 5 units of archers attacking the same one to for them to be killed with one fire ball wiping out my whole army.
so how can new players like my self get into pvp when clearly players who have been on here a while have 2, 3 sometimes more dragons in their armies. and really as you know reading this, you army no matter what units are in it do not stand a change even though the pvp match making has said your armies are even.
its basically bringing a gun to a rock fight. you tell me who would win. and it doesnt matter on player skill.
there needs to be a "dragon slayer" unit you can make with just resources that is weak to every unit lets say but can kill a dragon and have better resistances to the fire from them. if not you will lose alot of players as the pvp only really works for high level players who have dragons in their army

huwie
03-29-2012, 10:19 AM
Would any vets care to comment on this? It sounds fairly game-breaking if true.

GPS51
03-29-2012, 11:03 AM
Dragons get 80% arrow resistance standard, they can also be buffed like heroes are. Spear units get a 300% bonus vs dragons/treants/ogres. I do know the dragon strength numbers used in pvp are not solid and still need a bit of balancing.

huwie
03-29-2012, 11:18 AM
Thanks GPS51. Seykon, why don't you try again using the appropriate counter for your race?

Seykon
03-29-2012, 11:18 AM
vets wont contradict my original statement as its all in their favour. can any new players like my self comment here please. after you've tried pvp. i'm not moaning about the game, its a great game. im just truing to point out that new players like myself take every unit they have, get into a pvp battle that says its evenly matched and what your really fighting is a tiny army, ( 6-10 units ) and 2 dragons with 26k health on both of them. i just dont want the new players to get feed up losing all their units the first time they try pvp. i would like to see the game develop more and get more players as i am really enjoying it.

Konstantin Fomenko
03-29-2012, 11:39 AM
Three post I wanted to remind you guys about:



First - if you are the one who is Attacking - chances are you will be matched against a stronger army, but if you are defending - are are guaranteed to be matched against equal or weaker army. So especially if you are using Be Brave feature and attacking - you need to be prepared to face Royal Dragons.

Second - there are some specific anti-Dragon troops (same applies to other monsters such as Ogres). Here`s some pointers:
-archers are ranged troops are mostly useless against Dragons, unless they are level 5 with attack upgrades, don`t bother
-Dragons are 100% immune to fire damage, so using fire arrows or trebuchets is again useless
-Heavy Cavalry - Mounted Grand Masters, Mounted Slayers, or Mounted Knights - work great, but you really need to swarm the Dragon. Light cavalry is not that good.
-the BEST counter unit is Impaler, Sentry and Halberdier - anything with a pike. Just be sure to attack in Loose formation so that fire spells don`t kill all of them
-Bring Elven Warden units with you - as they have area of effect spells that completely eliminate fire

Third - and most important point - the army you are matching against a Dragon typically costs maybe 5000 gold, at the very most. Royal Dragon for example costs 120 influence, which is around 80,000 gold value. So if that player loose his Dragon his loss is much much greater that yours. ALSO - if you do kill the Dragon you will get something like 20-40 points of Wealth in return, so think about it as a gamble with very high steaks on each side.



And finally a quick summary for the new players: "Always bring Halberdier, Sentry or Impaler units with your army. And in PvP never use Be Brave, and better yet - never attack, just defend"

huwie
03-29-2012, 01:54 PM
That's a great post Konstantin, thanks very much!

ProblemSir
03-29-2012, 03:04 PM
Three post I wanted to remind you guys about:



First - if you are the one who is Attacking - chances are you will be matched against a stronger army, but if you are defending - are are guaranteed to be matched against equal or weaker army. So especially if you are using Be Brave feature and attacking - you need to be prepared to face Royal Dragons.

Second - there are some specific anti-Dragon troops (same applies to other monsters such as Ogres). Here`s some pointers:
-archers are ranged troops are mostly useless against Dragons, unless they are level 5 with attack upgrades, don`t bother
-Dragons are 100% immune to fire damage, so using fire arrows or trebuchets is again useless
-Heavy Cavalry - Mounted Grand Masters, Mounted Slayers, or Mounted Knights - work great, but you really need to swarm the Dragon. Light cavalry is not that good.
-the BEST counter unit is Impaler, Sentry and Halberdier - anything with a pike. Just be sure to attack in Loose formation so that fire spells don`t kill all of them
-Bring Elven Warden units with you - as they have area of effect spells that completely eliminate fire

Third - and most important point - the army you are matching against a Dragon typically costs maybe 5000 gold, at the very most. Royal Dragon for example costs 120 influence, which is around 80,000 gold value. So if that player loose his Dragon his loss is much much greater that yours. ALSO - if you do kill the Dragon you will get something like 20-40 points of Wealth in return, so think about it as a gamble with very high steaks on each side.



And finally a quick summary for the new players: "Always bring Halberdier, Sentry or Impaler units with your army. And in PvP never use Be Brave, and better yet - never attack, just defend"

Well:
First point - fail.
Happened to me being attacked by army that had lower average value and had dragons. So no "be brave" tool being involved and I faced the dragon.

Second point - fail.
The units you are giving as counter are weak against anything else than dragons.

Third point - the biggest fail of all fails in your post, sir.
Player with dragons do not loose anything, because when losing all he does is "surrender". And the fact it happens is at least on my example, where I wrote in another post my experience from meeting some "hero dragon player". Player pays in wealth to get a dragon and he does not risk ANYTHING while entering combat with the dragon/s while having imbalanced high chance for easy win vs most enemies.


I want to stress out that the game is really great - has bugs and elements, that can be improved easly, but in general I think DoF is really decent game.
But at the same time I would like to bold the fact, that there is no balance in PvP, there is no even shadow of the balance.
When I picked the topic of dragon aspect in PvP and faced with similar arguments like above I did not react instantly, mainly because I did not want to look like qq guy. I decided to wait if there are any other players that face same problem I did (and do) and that feel the similar to me about the balance issue. Now, once I have noticed this topic I add my 2 cents.

Argument about the cost of the dragons is completely meaningless to me same as explanation that if I manage to defeat the dragon army I can earn lots of wealth. Problem is (as described previously) that the dragons are very easly obtainable and impossible to be killed, since most players surrender when sense they might lose the game and loose the dragon.

I really really appreciate the great work you, guys do, but I feel a bit disappointed when I read such explanations like these above concerning obvious dragons imbalance in pvp. It is your game, and you decide how it looks and what rules the game, but still... denying the problem does not solve it, don't you agree? And facing dragons each 3-4th battle and being forced to pay more than enemy despite fact he surrenders OR losing hopelessly when the dragon players has some skill is a lose lose case for me, that should not have a place in game which is supposed to give some fun. These are facts. Face them, please and solve the problem or simply say, that this is not an issue for you instead of trying to explain the imbalance state as intended.

Sorry for my english, it is not my native.

knightl
03-29-2012, 04:55 PM
I just vsed 5 royal dragons

cloaked my units until they were all around them, they got speared and shot by archers died in a few seconds

if you charge a dragon with one unit of pikeman, well yeah.....

i do agree with the surrender part i do wish it was a retreat where they run away that way less suicide, surrenderers

huwie
03-29-2012, 05:12 PM
Perhaps surrendering should involve a material loss? However I have to take issue with this:


Second point - fail.
The units you are giving as counter are weak against anything else than dragons.


Why is that a problem? This is standard rock-paper-scissors gameplay. You can't expect a unit to be strong against everything, or have no vulnerabilities. I'm quite happy with the concept of a dragon-killer unit that can't hold its own against other units. If pikemen could kill dragons and most other types of units, it's the pikemen who would be overpowered, yes?

Konstantin Fomenko
03-29-2012, 05:15 PM
ProblemSi,

I do have to agree - there is alot more balancing work needed for PvP. We been concentrating on patches and new content too much, in April we plan several patches that will specifically adjust balancing in PvP.

There is one more thing I should have mentioned. Getting the Dragon healed is only time-efficient at NPC town - healing merchant. And healing a badly damaged Dragon costs around 2,000 in gold - so that player pays as much as you would to get your army to full strength.


Also - can you please clarify what you mean about getting a Dragon being too easy? 60-120 influence is rather hard to come by.


The units you are giving as counter are weak against anything else than dragons.
Not really - somehow they are underused, but if used right these units are not only Dragon slayers.
Units such as Mounted Knights or Mounted Grand Masters actually overpower almost everything in-game.
And Halberdier, Impaler, Sentry units can devastate cavalry as well as monster units and any even archers if used in loose formation.

Seykon
03-30-2012, 11:29 AM
Perhaps surrendering should involve a material loss? However I have to take issue with this:



Why is that a problem? This is standard rock-paper-scissors gameplay. You can't expect a unit to be strong against everything, or have no vulnerabilities. I'm quite happy with the concept of a dragon-killer unit that can't hold its own against other units. If pikemen could kill dragons and most other types of units, it's the pikemen who would be overpowered, yes?

totally agree with this staement but thats is the reason i believe there should be an anti-dragon unit. give it a high defense skill against everything but make it have no attack value against units other than dragons. hench the "anti-dragon" unit. previous staements about players who have the dragons then start to loose, surrender and have lost nothing because no units of theirs die's. its just every unit you loose costs. and i dont know but i believe the average army costs way more than 2k cause you dont take a complete level 1 army to battle.
if you are an attacking army then remove the ability to surrender. they choose to attack and just cause it doesnt go their way they should not have the ability to just walk away loosing nothing.
like i have said i realy enjoy the game, hench why i started this thread saying you will loose new players. after you have reasched everything you have all the pvp to look forward to.but when you have reascnhed everything and you do pvp you just get wiped out by an army of 10 units and dragons. i dont think alot of people would kep doing that sernario over and over, do you??