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Pargulan
10-08-2011, 07:33 AM
Hey There !

First I have to say, i realy like DoF, even tough i cant do much because of all the bugs ( I'm an Orc, my Quest are stucked and PvP causes my client to crash allmost every time ).

But there is one thing i realy think should be reconsidered. The "Mercenaries" you can buy at "enemy fractions" are defenitly a step in the wrong direction, let me explain you why:

By choosing a specific race you think you get their strongholds and their troops. But because of the current mercenarie-system allmost every single pvp-battle ends up with "the best units of each race". Now, considering that Orcis strongholds are kinda week compared to humans it leads to yet another problem. Sooner or later everybody will use "humans" to build up their strongholds ( cause they are that much easier to defend than orcish ) but they will use lets say elvish archers because they do much more damage and orcish ogre to block some melee-attackers if necessary.

But thats not how it's supposed to be in my view. i want ORKs to fight ELVES // HUMANS .. and not "just the best units of each race" ..

so instead of being able to buy units from all races at every town, i'd propose only to be able to buy Mercenaries of your own race !!


What are your thoughts about that current system ???

Cheers
Pargulan

White935
10-08-2011, 07:40 AM
Hey There !

First I have to say, i realy like DoF, even tough i cant do much because of all the bugs ( I'm an Orc, my Quest are stucked and PvP causes my client to crash allmost every time ).

But there is one thing i realy think should be reconsidered. The "Mercenaries" you can buy at "enemy fractions" are defenitly a step in the wrong direction, let me explain you why:

By choosing a specific race you think you get their strongholds and their troops. But because of the current mercenarie-system allmost every single pvp-battle ends up with "the best units of each race". Now, considering that Orcis strongholds are kinda week compared to humans it leads to yet another problem. Sooner or later everybody will use "humans" to build up their strongholds ( cause they are that much easier to defend than orcish ) but they will use lets say elvish archers because they do much more damage and orcish ogre to block some melee-attackers if necessary.

But thats not how it's supposed to be in my view. i want ORKs to fight ELVES // HUMANS .. and not "just the best units of each race" ..

so instead of being able to buy units from all races at every town, i'd propose only to be able to buy Mercenaries of your own race !!


What are your thoughts about that current system ???

Cheers
Pargulan


You got my full support on this, i Agree 100% with what you've said, i've mentioned this before aswell, but not as its own post.

andreicde
10-08-2011, 08:12 AM
same here,it ruins the fun when you fight a human using elves

Sunleader
10-08-2011, 08:30 AM
Well theres still the matter of Other Races units not being Upgraded thus theres some disadvantage in using em


but still
I partly support this

While I think that Mercs are a good idea in itself I think it needs to be limited


Maybe a RPG Limit
Saying we need to have at least 70% of our Homemade Units in the Army to ensure its not going to desert us

or something along this lines
the Percentage is of course a matter of discussion
but i think it should be something along this line to ensure we dont end up fighting Armys that are completly mixed around

xeovy
10-08-2011, 08:35 AM
Hey There !

First I have to say, i realy like DoF, even tough i cant do much because of all the bugs ( I'm an Orc, my Quest are stucked and PvP causes my client to crash allmost every time ).

But there is one thing i realy think should be reconsidered. The "Mercenaries" you can buy at "enemy fractions" are defenitly a step in the wrong direction, let me explain you why:

By choosing a specific race you think you get their strongholds and their troops. But because of the current mercenarie-system allmost every single pvp-battle ends up with "the best units of each race". Now, considering that Orcis strongholds are kinda week compared to humans it leads to yet another problem. Sooner or later everybody will use "humans" to build up their strongholds ( cause they are that much easier to defend than orcish ) but they will use lets say elvish archers because they do much more damage and orcish ogre to block some melee-attackers if necessary.

But thats not how it's supposed to be in my view. i want ORKs to fight ELVES // HUMANS .. and not "just the best units of each race" ..

so instead of being able to buy units from all races at every town, i'd propose only to be able to buy Mercenaries of your own race !!


What are your thoughts about that current system ???

Cheers
Pargulan
I think so.
has every reason
The mercenaries should be all of your race.
fewer units dwarves and dragons

szebus
10-08-2011, 09:06 AM
Or mercs could cost more then producing them at own village. Look, a human swordsman can be bought for aprox 340 gold, but to make them in the village, you need 200 and something food and 300 and something gold. :confused:

andreicde
10-08-2011, 09:14 AM
Or mercs could cost more then producing them at own village. Look, a human swordsman can be bought for aprox 340 gold, but to make them in the village, you need 200 and something food and 300 and something gold. :confused:

you do seem to forget the ones at your village get the bonuses fro your homeland which makes them stronger in the end

Valkyrie
10-08-2011, 09:23 AM
you do seem to forget the ones at your village get the bonuses fro your homeland which makes them stronger in the end


nah doesn't make a diff, atleast not for me. I just tried bought a lvl 1 merc archer and built one in my homeland they had the same dmg even tho my bonus said they'll get 20% more.

White935
10-08-2011, 09:48 AM
indeed. Racial Bonuses aint the main point.its the fact that some peoplke are buying the best units of each race and putting them in the issue. Theres no fun when your fighting the best of each race in a single army. and they completely avoid any flaws that race have.

Dreamwalker
10-08-2011, 10:07 AM
Now, I don't think mercenaries from other races should be destroyed entirely-but you really should never have more than two or three mercenary units, ever, in my opinion.

Right now, mercenaries only cost gold, unlike regular troops, making them cheaper over all; mercenaries should be very, very expensive, so you would only buy them as a last resort; mercenaries from other races should cost about, say, 1,000 gold a piece (give or take).

Also, if there's ever some kind of morale system, mercenaries should have significantly lower morale than regular troops.

Sunleader
10-08-2011, 11:33 AM
Well this would be another idea

Limit Mercs by making em weaker in their fighting spirit
there would also be ways like making mercenary troops smaller in manpower

means a Swordman Group has 20 Men so a Merc Swordmen would only get 15 Men
those it would make Merc Troops considerably weaker than Homemade units



Also a good idea would be to increase Bonusses from Homeland
means that the Racial Techs should be increased

so that Mercenary Troops of other Races would be weaker due to the fact that they fight without the advanced equipment that your own Races Forces acquire thanks to your technology



theres plenty of possibilitys
to make em weaker than regular troops

Pargulan
10-08-2011, 11:37 AM
Some realy interessting thoughts there .. but .. do we all agree:


WE DONT WANT TO BE ABLE TO BUY MERCS OF ENEMY FACTIONS


??? ^^

ThatguyAds1298
10-08-2011, 12:07 PM
I agree, some neutral unit mercs would be great

Henry Martin
10-08-2011, 12:08 PM
WE DONT WANT TO BE ABLE TO BUY MERCS OF ENEMY FACTIONS


??? ^^

Well, you are missing one thing, mercs have no alliance. They fight for whoever pays the highest. So having human mercs in your orc army, I dont see a problem or vise versa. If you actually look at it, most mercs are not of the native faction/race/country.

Pargulan
10-08-2011, 12:43 PM
Yeah, that might be correct ... but i've never seen whole armies where all soldiers are mercenaries ^^ ..

and in my opinion the current system leads the "races" ad absurdum. Lets say i'm an orc, then i'm supposed to "swarm" and because of these "multiple forces" i got the disadvantage of the wooden-stronghold. Now what, i only use "heavy armored knights" for melee or elvish ranged-units because they are good at it.

In other words, the race doesn't have an impact on the armie-unit-composition but the stronghold. So i think later on there will only be human strongholds cause they are the tuffest to deal with. And behind these think stone-walls there will be elvish archers...


well just my point of view, but it seems that im not the only one with that opinion :D
Cheers : ))

Sunleader
10-08-2011, 01:09 PM
Ehm
no actually we dont agree on that lol


I said this several Times

I WANT MERCS FROM OTHER FRACTIONS


just not to the extend of Mercs being the main Factor in the Army

I think Regular trained troops should be more effective as an Army than a Mercenary Band



But I dont want to have em out of the Game matey
and many others dont want to do that as well

so dont try to make it look like we all protest against Mercs completly lol





edit:
@Pagulan

ah well actually in the Dark Ages most Armys where Mercenary Troops
Recruiting and Training large Armys was a very expensive and time consuming process
so most Armys where either Drafted by Force or Hired with Money means it were either Militias or Mercenarys
especially for Land Lords with only one or two Citys at their Control


Good Example for this would be an old German Conflict
The Ruler of Saxony aquired large sums of Gold by selling western parts of his Territory to the Frensh People
He used this Gold to Hire a large Army and then Marshed towards Preussia and Conquered it

less then 30% of his Army were from his own Army
the remaining 70% were Mercenarys purchased from the East Frensh and West German Citys and States

This wasnt a rare case
since Wars happened often and usually they happened fast
so in most cases the bulk of the armys werent well trained regular troops but instead Mercenarys purchased with Money





but then again i say this
I think Regular Troops Trained in the Homeland should be Stronger than Mercenary Units
but also more Expensive and they should take more time to Train


Greetz

Pargulan
10-08-2011, 01:25 PM
well ok .. didn't knew that actually Sunleader.

But still, i think it's kinda sad that noone uses the forces of his own race ;(

andreicde
10-08-2011, 02:06 PM
well ok .. didn't knew that actually Sunleader.

But still, i think it's kinda sad that noone uses the forces of his own race ;(

I always use forces of my own race o.O. Heck,I only use forces of my own race all the time actually

Sunleader
10-08-2011, 02:30 PM
Well this is no surprise
most people dont know since Movies and Story Tales always only show the Army but rarely how it came down to this Army

But actually its logical
Just think about it
Armys of 5000 or more Soldiers

The Capacity to House em
The Capacity to Train them

Only the Biggest Empires had those
Rome for example had large Armys of Regular Troops
but even they had lot of Mercenary Troops and Drafted Troops especially for the Battles outside of the Empire

Mercenary Armys were the Main Forces for a long time
Even when the Muskets and Cannons came along it was standart that most Forces were Militia and Mercs

Napoleon for example also had primarily Mercenary Troops
Preussia which beat Napoleon later on had a large Regular Army
and they were Feared at this time since they were tought of as Strongest Military Power in Central Europe set on one position with Spain and Britannia which also had enormus Forces of Regular Soldiers

Only after that the Mercenarys startet to die out slowly
With the expertise on Ranged Weapons and the insight that well trained troops with disciplin are much more usefull than mercenarys and militias
the Great Nations startet to Train their Armys as professionals and the percentage of Mercenarys dropped till Mercenarys were only used by those small Nations which could not afford a Regular Army

When Repetition Guns came about there were nearly no more Mercenary Armys
the only remaining Forces as Mercs were the Frensh Foreign Legion for example
and other Elite Units
Since it was no longer possible to have private Armys in modern Nations there have been no more Mercenary Bands
instead Mercenarys were now only small groups of 100 or 200 men at most

Tough it is not entirely died out
Latest example would be Georgia Conflict

The Russians Invaded Geogia after a Civil War i think that was 1 or 3 years ago
Most of the Forces that Invaded there were not Regular Russian Soldiers but Mercenarys in the Russian Army
Not a Surprise there from the Second World War the Russians know how valuable Regular Forces are
they wont waste em on such a minor Conflict


Well
I am currently using primarily my own troops as well
I have about 30% Elven Mercs and 70% of my Own Forces
But this being said large parts are Mercs despite being Human Forces

Main Reason for the Elven Units are not fighting tough
I hardly use em to fight
I primarily use their Workers
since unlike Human Workers they dont require a dropoff point and produce a constant income this way

szebus
10-08-2011, 03:26 PM
I don't think it is all about what role mercenaries had in the past, but it is about the devs doing something that the access for mercenaries, because it is a game, to be limited. It is ok to have soldiers from another race payed with gold, but there should be some penalty. I do understand that if I play with the humans and buy orc mercenaries, then they won't have some abilities or upgrades that they could have if I play with the Orcs, but then again,I play with humans and rather buy human mercenaries then create them because they are cheaper and are the same as those i can train in mu village.

Sunleader
10-08-2011, 04:24 PM
than i.ll do some advertising

I posted another Thread in this Forum

which would solve this problem


maybe give your toughts on that :P

Boricsmith
10-08-2011, 04:45 PM
Only problem is how would you grandfather it? I have mostly human merc units and elvish archers, ogres. To take them away now would leave me with an army strength of 100 versus 550 or 600.

I don't care if I can't use mercs of another race though. I see all of your points.