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darath
06-24-2007, 03:44 PM
will creating units be squad-based like bfme2 or singular like AOE

Ryan Zelazny
06-25-2007, 11:29 AM
Hi Darath and welcome to the forums!

To answer your question, we're not entirely sure yet. At the moment the game is implimented with singular units. However now that we are working on a Xbox 360 version instead of strictly PC, we find this might be a little difficult playability wise, with the harder interface.

We are currently testing and debating between the two, however I believe it's currently in the batalions favour.

jap88
06-26-2007, 08:51 AM
Yeah, on the 360 singular units would indeed be hard to control... unless there was something where you could create your own battalions (similar to control groups i guess but not the same exactly) as that way it would be possible do order each unit to do exactly what you want them to do or just do groups of units for greater ease

The Witch King of Angmar
06-26-2007, 09:12 AM
Hi Darath and welcome to the forums!

To answer your question, we're not entirely sure yet. At the moment the game is implimented with singular units. However now that we are working on a Xbox 360 version instead of strictly PC, we find this might be a little difficult playability wise, with the harder interface.

We are currently testing and debating between the two, however I believe it's currently in the batalions favour.

I personally like the battalions myself because they are much easier to control.

darath
06-27-2007, 07:15 AM
i would prefer singular, if they where like stronghold in making the weapons it would be more realistic

Konstantin Fomenko
06-27-2007, 08:50 AM
To Update this topic - we did decided to go with batalions, the questions now is how many units per batalion. Did you guyss like it more with 5-10 units like BftME 1, or 20-30 like BftME 2?

The Witch King of Angmar
06-27-2007, 09:25 AM
5-10. It seemed so much better to me. I hated the way BFME2 had it set up. It was really dumb.

jap88
06-27-2007, 10:49 AM
5-10 is much easier to manage and also allows for more precise manuvering etc. I find 8 is a good number for some reason but i don't know why :p Besides, generally when the battalions are larger the creators of games make them take longer to build, i'd rather be able to get 3 groups of ten out in the same time as 1 group of 30. If my town is under attack i need guys quickly, not slowly.

SPARROW94
06-27-2007, 07:22 PM
yeah i choose 5-10 units!! in BFME2 it sucked so hard even when u lined up your men they looked ugly....heres a hint DONT PUT THE BATTLIONS IN STRAIGHT ROWS I HATE THAT make em look like they were ready for war

Darvin
06-27-2007, 11:37 PM
I personally prefer the word "squad" to battallion, because the shorthand "batt" is confusable with the word "battle".

In terms of size, I think that the problem with BFME2's large squads wasn't so much the size itself, but pathing issues. I think it all depends on how it is managed. In terms of how the squad spreads itself out, that should be on a case-to-case basis. I think orcs make sense spread out, but cavalry should charge in lines, and a spear formation definitely should be a tight box.

I do believe size should vary from unit-type to unit-type and faction to faction. It might make a lot of sense to put phalanx in a big formation, but light cavalry in a small formation. I think it's all about what works best for gameplay and that unit type in specific.

Most games have a variety of features like variable starting resources and population limits, it might be cool if a squad size multiplier was also available, although that could cause balance issues with regards to heros, monsters, and other "non-squad" units.

Konstantin Fomenko
06-28-2007, 07:47 AM
DONT PUT THE BATTLIONS IN STRAIGHT ROWS I HATE THAT make em look like they were ready for war
Good point. There are so many other formations for groups - V formations, X formation, Loose formation e.t.c And Ok, I can see Swordsmen in line formation, but thinking about Orcs or Goblins, I see more of a random mob.

SPARROW94
06-28-2007, 12:35 PM
maybe you can evan create formation groups for each faction

The Witch King of Angmar
06-28-2007, 01:08 PM
I've never had you issue before Darvin so I really don't have any comment to make on that. :p As for the battalions, I never really hated the straight line thing. My favorite was the skirmish formation for Rangers and the wedge formation for horses. The wedge was really cool I thought when charging because the banner guy was in front giving things a kind of "movie" feeling. That would be especially cool with heros like Theoden.

The Witch King of Angmar
06-28-2007, 01:10 PM
Good point. There are so many other formations for groups - V formations, X formation, Loose formation e.t.c And Ok, I can see Swordsmen in line formation, but thinking about Orcs or Goblins, I see more of a random mob.

I always think about like a huge army of orcs or goblins as a huge swarm of ants, just comming in all over the place.

SPARROW94
06-30-2007, 12:15 PM
I always think about like a huge army of orcs or goblins as a huge swarm of ants, just comming in all over the place.



when were ants made???

The Witch King of Angmar
06-30-2007, 07:23 PM
when were ants made???

Lol funny. I meant what they looked like. Look on the ground where there is like 100 ants and see how they are all spread out. That's what I meant.

SPARROW94
06-30-2007, 08:53 PM
last time i looked at them they bit me so yeah i stay inside everyday I HATE THE OUTDOORS

The Witch King of Angmar
07-01-2007, 02:12 PM
last time i looked at them they bit me so yeah i stay inside everyday I HATE THE OUTDOORS

The light, it burns! :cool:

SPARROW94
07-01-2007, 08:40 PM
hells yeah it burns

Irish_PXzyan
07-06-2007, 08:15 PM
Id be happy if they do not have bonuses for formations...if you take a look at Rise and Fall...if you had men in formations..they would get armor and weapon bonuses..each formation can get a max of 64 units...and the more men in that formation the higher the bonus levels were..it was terrible!

If formations are going to be used in this game id like to see something like this:

-LINE FORMATION-
Available to swordsmen onlyA group of 20 or more men in a line formation will rise there shields and take less damage from ranged weapons but walk slower and are open to cavalry attacks.

-SQUARE FORMATION-
Available to pikemen only A group of 20 or more men in a square are deadly attack cavalry attacks but are easy pickings against archers.

-WEDGE FORMATION-Available to cavalry only A group of 10 or more cavalry units can form this formation and can crush certain formation types by trampleing them but if charged against a spearwall formation they would be crushed!

If formations are going to be included in this game...please dont make them pointless and only there to look fancy...make them have realistic effects.

SPARROW94
07-06-2007, 11:16 PM
Id be happy if they do not have bonuses for formations...if you take a look at Rise and Fall...if you had men in formations..they would get armor and weapon bonuses..each formation can get a max of 64 units...and the more men in that formation the higher the bonus levels were..it was terrible!

If formations are going to be used in this game id like to see something like this:

-LINE FORMATION-
Available to swordsmen onlyA group of 20 or more men in a line formation will rise there shields and take less damage from ranged weapons but walk slower and are open to cavalry attacks.

-SQUARE FORMATION-
Available to pikemen only A group of 20 or more men in a square are deadly attack cavalry attacks but are easy pickings against archers.

-WEDGE FORMATION-Available to cavalry only A group of 10 or more cavalry units can form this formation and can crush certain formation types by trampleing them but if charged against a spearwall formation they would be crushed!

If formations are going to be included in this game...please dont make them pointless and only there to look fancy...make them have realistic effects.



wow you put alot of effort into your work

Irish_PXzyan
07-07-2007, 12:10 PM
I know what I want and nothing really has come close to providing formations like this...not in the original style RTS games like this...Total war is great but I want formations that do stuff in normal RTS games :D

The Witch King of Angmar
07-07-2007, 12:13 PM
wow you put alot of effort into your work

I don't like the square formation for the pikes. Pikemen should be able to just put their pikes down like in BFME.

antpocas
07-09-2007, 10:45 AM
Why should a formation be available to only one unit type?

Irish_PXzyan
07-09-2007, 11:23 AM
why would you have a wedge formation for infantry?? because it does not work ;)

Line formation can and should be used for a great number of units..not just swordsmen..I was merely giving an example!

Ryan Zelazny
07-09-2007, 05:10 PM
We will have formations, no idea on bonuses at this point. However I also believe we will be having a custom formation option, so you can create your own.

Irish_PXzyan
07-10-2007, 06:24 AM
Ahhh, a unique little feature I see ;)

I only really see formations being usful if they have some sort of effect! I dont like formations if all they do is make your men look cool:rolleyes:

jap88
07-10-2007, 07:58 AM
The problem would be giving bonuses to unique formations. Of course, some formations just naturally give a certain unit advatage over another.

Joseph Visscher
07-14-2007, 10:00 AM
I think 5-10 units would be the best because it would ease the pathfinding, units could go in smaller areas; I found BFME2 horde size way to big they would get stuck in places and only half of them would fight when attacked. Although I think it would be very cool if you could group hordes together simular to bfme1. ;)

Darvin
07-14-2007, 11:52 AM
Problem with the BFME1 system was accidentally grouping two hordes you DIDN'T want together permeanently -_-

I do agree that the problem in BFME2 was pathing, but I think that squad sizes merely complicated an issue that had always existed. A good pathing system should work well regardless of the size of the hordes. Look at the Total War series, for example.

In any case, the worst part about the BFME2 squads was clumping. The squads were balanced on the assumption that pathfinding would be an issue for melee units. However, there were techniques to make all the units clump into a small area, allowing you to get the entire squad to attack a single building. This resulted in damage nearly triple that of which the unit had been balanced around. With building fragility an issue to begin with... well, nuff said.

Javier
07-21-2007, 09:43 PM
I think 5-10 units would be the best because it would ease the pathfinding, units could go in smaller areas; I found BFME2 horde size way to big they would get stuck in places and only half of them would fight when attacked. Although I think it would be very cool if you could group hordes together simular to bfme1. ;)

I'm kind of late on this debate, but I would have to agree 100% on this post of yours, Joseph. That's exactly what I'd like to see. :)

Silent_Lamb
07-24-2007, 01:03 AM
I agree with seperate unit formations for different factions. Unless your going with an Orc army that actually has some semblance of organization.

It would be really cool to see an Orc infantry battallion (or squad) be in a loose mob formation and then when a leader or hero walks by they form up until the leader is gone.

That also brings me to the units are idle point. It would be cool to see, for example, a human infantry group that has been idle for a long period of time form up around campfires, toss beer around or even sing. For gameplay convenience sake, as soon as an enemy got close, they were attacked, or you ordered them to move, it would all dissappear and they would form up and move instantly. For dragons, the dragon could curl up and fall asleep, or clean him/herself. Orcs could wrestle, play with skulls, or for the more delicate Orc, play with the surroundings.

Little things like that can really make a game.

The Witch King of Angmar
07-24-2007, 09:01 AM
I agree with seperate unit formations for different factions. Unless your going with an Orc army that actually has some semblance of organization.

It would be really cool to see an Orc infantry battallion (or squad) be in a loose mob formation and then when a leader or hero walks by they form up until the leader is gone.

That also brings me to the units are idle point. It would be cool to see, for example, a human infantry group that has been idle for a long period of time form up around campfires, toss beer around or even sing. For gameplay convenience sake, as soon as an enemy got close, they were attacked, or you ordered them to move, it would all dissappear and they would form up and move instantly. For dragons, the dragon could curl up and fall asleep, or clean him/herself. Orcs could wrestle, play with skulls, or for the more delicate Orc, play with the surroundings.

Little things like that can really make a game.

I always loved when in BFME if you let Merry or Pippin idle for like 30 seconds they would lie down and go to sleep or drop their sword and pick it up. My personal favorite was watching trolls scratch their rear ends and punch each other. :D

Konstantin Fomenko
07-24-2007, 09:48 AM
Orcs formation will look like an angry and disorganized mob:)

As for other suggestions, thanks alot guys, really good stuff. Yeah, little things like that do make a difference!

SPARROW94
07-24-2007, 01:32 PM
Orcs formation will look like an angry and disorganized mob:)

As for other suggestions, thanks alot guys, really good stuff. Yeah, little things like that do make a difference!


kewl stuff dude

The Witch King of Angmar
07-25-2007, 08:06 AM
kewl stuff dude

See Sparrow that's what I meant before by ANTS!!!!! Lol jk. :p

SPARROW94
07-25-2007, 12:23 PM
lol dont wanna go off topic again do we:D????? lol ;)

Manasky
07-31-2007, 05:29 AM
It looks like this game will consist a lot of "epic" battles with tons of combatants duelling and crushing each other. I would also like to mention that this game seems to be way more large-scaled than BFME II.

I played both BFME and BFME II, and was pretty hardcore playing BFME II in a month or two before I found out the game really sucks, and by that I mean literally SUCKS. BFME II had so much potential, but EA's bad programming in areas as path finding, AI and polishing bugs, not to mention their lack of support, really killed the game for good.

BFME on the other side never had the same potential, but was a lot of fun playing on occassional LANs.

You can't really compare the batalion-sizes in BFME and BFME II and base your descision on those games. The larger batalion-size wasn't a bad idea at all, and I'd prefer the larger batalion-sizes ANYTIME over the 5-10 large batalion-sizes that were used in BFME. It was the Sage engine and EA's bad code than made the large batalion-sizes seem broken, but even considering that fact I'd prefer larger batalion-sizes. I think 10-15 is a preferable number, while small units as Goblins should actually support up to 20 units in one batalion. On the other hand, strong batalions like elite elven units or brutal orcs should fit the 6-8 batalion-size in my opinion.

But you NEED good path finding. I'm sure you've played BFME II, so find all the problems with EA's obsolete Sage engine and don't make the same mistakes with your engine.

Lastly, I'd like to ask you if each soldier levels up individually or the batalion as a whole, how you reinforce units to your batalions, about unit lethality, how fast units/batalions level up, unit production time and all kinds of factors you should base your descision on.

I could go on forever on this, but I'd like to see an answer before I use any more time on this. :)

Oh, btw, this is my first post here, so I'd like to say good luck with your project, and I'll love to see your progress in the future.

Darvin
07-31-2007, 10:55 PM
playing BFME II in a month or two before I found out the game really sucks, and by that I mean literally SUCKS

Well, it wasn't that bad... at least after you modded it until the gameplay no longer resembled the original game :-P


But you NEED good path finding

Agreed; that was the biggest issue with the BFME franchise, and the Total War franchise is proof that it can be overcome.


I'd like to ask you if each soldier levels up individually or the batalion as a whole, how you reinforce units to your batalions, about unit lethality, how fast units/batalions level up, unit production time and all kinds of factors you should base your descision on

Keep in mind I'm not a Reverie rep, but most of these should be fairly easy to answer. In a practical sense, it's impossible to track the veterency of individual units as a player, so I'm willing to bet that units will gain experience as a squad, not individually. As for all the other points, I'm willing to bet the answer will be "too early in development", since these things can change dramatically as they fine tune towards the final gameplay values.

Gallivan
09-07-2007, 03:58 PM
I found this thread really interesting so I thought I'd build on the prior formations list:

Wedge
Usage: A successful wedge formation is used to created holes in the enemies line. Done correctly, each rank of filtering troops will further expand these lines into fragmented sections. When used correctly it can break the tightest of shield walls, although when it falls expect the encirclement and following slaughter of your unit. More importantly the wedge is used to find holes in the enemies lines and exploit them.

Infantry: Despite numerous relevant history examples, infantry were use in wedge formations. Heavy infantry worked best against other, lighter infantry (read: spearmen) in breaking their thinner formations. Of course heavy infantry in a wedge formation are useless against most ranged fire. The leader of the wedge formation should be a brave man indeed...

An example of the infantry wedge can be found within the Byzantine Empire (chiliarcia).

Cavalry: Cavalry are the most renowned usage of the wedge. They are used as much for damage as they are for shock and awe. Cavalry charges in wedge formation are best warmed up by softening the enemy ranks with bow fire, to eliminate nasty spills from the large beasts.

An example of the cavalry wedge can be found within the Byzantine Cataphracti and Pontus' Heavy Cavalry.

Line
Usage: The line is one of the most basic formations, utilizing mass and area to its advantage. Sadly, it sacrifices maneuverability, especially when facing flanking cavalry. It also lacks against hearty charges, although this depends entirely on the ranks and file it is composed of.

Infantry: This basic formation for infantry is utilized to cover the greatest area for the number of troops at your disposal. Reserve ranks should be kept to deal with cavalry. An example of line formation using infantry can be seen in the Seven Years War.

Cavalry: This can also be used with cavalry to deal the most umph with your stampeding men. However, it is possible to spread your ranks too thin.

Archers: Similar to cavalry, although spreading your archers is also a liable defense against incoming missile attacks.



-- This is a work in project. I was going to do the entirety of it (10 or so formations I've read up on), but I ran out of gusto. I'll probably finish it up tonight. --

The Witch King of Angmar
09-07-2007, 05:19 PM
My dad played AOE but now plays BFME and he told me the units had multiple formations. Maybe each unit would be able to pick between like line, wedge, or loose formations. That would work well in my opinion.

Gallivan
09-07-2007, 05:26 PM
That's a good point.

Every unit could have the same basic 3-4 formations, but some may have a basic flare. For example, Elven cavalry might shoot their bows right before a charge while in a wedge formation; or Human infantry might have the first row use their shields and the second row use long spears in a line formation.

Something that adds to the depth of each race a little more, while making the user go 'Wow'.

Darvin
09-08-2007, 12:04 AM
You don't need a lot of formations; most end up going unused anyways. The only one I actually find meaningful in most games is loose formation for avoiding projectile attacks on my troops. I'd prefer to keep it simple and cut the unnecessary ones that are just stats modifiers. Put the complexity on features that are interesting, not formations that give stats modifiers.

Formations for the sake of stats modifiers just increase micromanagement, as 90% of the time there is obvious a "best" stance choice. Because of this, there realistically isn't any player choice, and it's all about clicking quickly to change to the appropriate formation for the situation.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-08-2007, 07:54 AM
You don't need a lot of formations; most end up going unused anyways. The only one I actually find meaningful in most games is loose formation for avoiding projectile attacks on my troops. I'd prefer to keep it simple and cut the unnecessary ones that are just stats modifiers. Put the complexity on features that are interesting, not formations that give stats modifiers.

Formations for the sake of stats modifiers just increase micromanagement, as 90% of the time there is obvious a "best" stance choice. Because of this, there realistically isn't any player choice, and it's all about clicking quickly to change to the appropriate formation for the situation.

Heck, I normally use formations so it would be valuable to me.

Gallivan
09-08-2007, 10:11 AM
I understand your point Darvin.

What Reverie could do, however, is take the Total War route and offer Loose and Tight as the basic formations for all units (loose against ranged, tight against melee).

Then, should other units REALLY need another formation (cavalry wedge, spearwall) it can be added as a special unit bonus (read: spearman schiltrom formation) in which they sacrifice a skillset for that formation privilege.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-08-2007, 02:08 PM
I understand your point Darvin.

What Reverie could do, however, is take the Total War route and offer Loose and Tight as the basic formations for all units (loose against ranged, tight against melee).

Then, should other units REALLY need another formation (cavalry wedge, spearwall) it can be added as a special unit bonus (read: spearman schiltrom formation) in which they sacrifice a skillset for that formation privilege.

Ok I agree with that. I really like wedge formatgion though that would look odd for swordsman and pikes.