On Empire Building

[Merku]

Warning: This post is likely too long and thought out for many forum-goers: tl;dr at end.

After watching gameplay vids and going through the forums for quite some time, I'm still a bit confused as to where the empire-builder (4x games) parts come in to the mix. From what I've been able to glean, we have the traditional RTS component including the campaign and skirmish modes (online and off) and then we have the MMO component. The MMO part brings greater depth to the entire traditional RTS of gather, build, fight, win/lose. From the (admittedly) little we've (or maybe just I've) seen on the MMO component with our cities and armies on the world-map, the current build of the game seems akin to the Battle for Middle Earth II system of War of the Ring, where you pick a side and go conquer your enemies - no questions asked. Can anyone clarify?

Assuming 4x elements are light, here are some suggestions using other games as examples.

Look at Sword of the Stars, a 4x empire builder which originally started with a minimalist diplomatic component. Due to popular demand, more robust diplomatic options were added which gave the game much more depth and replayability. Without the diplomatic options, such as cease fires, non-aggression pacts, alliance-making, macro-scale bargaining, SotS was basically just an empire-builder/space combat simulator. It got much better with the additional 'empire' components.

Random events are also a part of the typical 4x formula. Events such as, for games like this, famine, with some negative effect, or a 'good harvest' with +15% food production. Or if you're an orc, some sort of ritualistic blood sacrifice of some screaming captured elves... +10% army morale or damage bonus for X amount of time. I think you get the point here.

Empire-building components of the 4x sub-genre of TBS/RTS would seem to enhance the DoF experience across the board, especially for the MMO component. From what I understand, there will be 4x 'light' components for guild-warfare and what have you, but I would suggest one looks at the SotS example and just go for the full package of 4x components to make DoF's offering bust at the seams. And if not for DoF, then an expansion for sure. :P

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tl;dr - How many 4x empire-builder components are going to be in DoF? There should be as much as possible, imho.

Cheers!
Merku

[Mokhir]

Not sure but you can not conquer cities and build an empire of cities. No borderline like Rise of Nations that you push towards the enemy. Only one city. :-/

[Dracus]

Not sure but you can not conquer cities and build an empire of cities. No borderline like Rise of Nations that you push towards the enemy. Only one city. :-/

I really hope you cannot have more then 3+ cities hell or 20+ like most games. Just giving ******ed building orders for 1 hour non stop....I mean cmon... I hope the fun is in the battles not the stupid micro-manage of 200 cities.

[Neutral884nz]

I really hope you cannot have more then 3+ cities hell or 20+ like most games. Just giving ******ed building orders for 1 hour non stop....I mean cmon... I hope the fun is in the battles not the stupid micro-manage of 200 cities.

I personally find the management of multiple citys and trying to create a thriving economy just as fun as the military part. It gives you more of an "Empire" feeling.

[Dracus]

I personally find the management of multiple citys and trying to create a thriving economy just as fun as the military part. It gives you more of an "Empire" feeling.

Empire builder sounds more like lord of ultima then an RTS mmo. In my opinion if this is gonna be an RTS game it needs to focus more on resource management through 1 to max 4 cities and focus more on the battles and combat.

[Pilus]

I personally prefer very few cities. While making a whole kingdom is great, I just really prefer micromanagement of a small area. I would rather go for details than size.

[Merku]

All of the discussion above still leaves me wondering how much 4x empire building kind of mechanics are in DoF. Regardless of preferences as to how many cities you prefer controlling or what have you, really a higher number is just another reason for interface streamlining and the ability to delegate the AI to handle some of the more repetitive, babysitting-kind of tasks in your cities. Master of Orion 2 or Pax Imperia 2 comes to mind as examples for this kind of AI delegation when the empire gets a bit too big for personal attention. Streamlining doesn't have to coincide with the dreaded 'consolization' of PC games. :)

If a dev could comment for clarification, it would be ideal.

[Dracus]

All of the discussion above still leaves me wondering how much 4x empire building kind of mechanics are in DoF. Regardless of preferences as to how many cities you prefer controlling or what have you, really a higher number is just another reason for interface streamlining and the ability to delegate the AI to handle some of the more repetitive, babysitting-kind of tasks in your cities. Master of Orion 2 or Pax Imperia 2 comes to mind as examples for this kind of AI delegation when the empire gets a bit too big for personal attention. Streamlining doesn't have to coincide with the dreaded 'consolization' of PC games. :)

If a dev could comment for clarification, it would be ideal.

Even though that sounds cool to keep those type of games alive. I still do not find enjoyment on a game that you have fun or do tasks by not doing anything. It's like saying your playing silkroad online yet all your doing is botting to max level and logging in every now and then to duel people. When a game requires it have more then 30% of its gameplay to be automated I am damn sure something is wrong.

[Merku]

It doesn't have to be automated. Take a look at the 4x behemoth, Civilization. Their newest iteration, Civ 5, juggles that very issue by making it a perfectly valid playstyle to focus on, say, 3-4 cities. Unlike previous iterations, you don't need to have a sprawling empire to win the game. The difficulty of management scales with the number of cities you control according to their mechanics. Now, I wouldn't try to impose Civ's mechanics here - frankly I'd be horrified if it was - but the latest iteration's mechanics on empire size would transfer nicely to DoF to adddress the kinds of issues that are being brought up here; delegation to the AI would be a beneficial option for streamlining if you are the kind of player who likes to conquer the world but doesn't want to babysit cities way behind the front lines.