PDA

View Full Version : Siege Fears


Feweh
04-09-2008, 06:28 PM
Every game thats a strategy and based in the medieval times always takes a crack at sieges.

Everytime they fail.
Stronghold, stronghold 2 , BFME, BFME2 and so on.
All failed.

Why, because the players are smart enough to completely avoid the siege defences set up.

What do i mean? Well players have come to the conclusion to just attack a sungle wall or corner, this means only one Catapult and defensive wall stands to fire back.

They then knock it down by doing what? Well everyone just masses about 10 catapults, fires at the wall it disapears infantry come outta nowhere without taking any damage at all run in win.

This is a common problem where everyone just masses artilerry and attacks a small area on your castle.

So what measures are being taken to prevent this, because in the video you see the orcs using ladders etc, in a real game i simply see everyone gathering 10 catapults and firing on a wall.


My suggestion? Don't make walls disapear, make them become a bunch of rumble that the enemie slowly has to cross over or jump over, not instantly it just disapears and it's a opening.

Catapults should be used to destroy towers and trebuchets and defensive stuff, not completely getting rid of wall sections.

Konstantin Fomenko
04-09-2008, 10:37 PM
Ultimately you`ll be the judge of how well DoF sieges turn out, but I hear you - this was exactly how our designers felt when approaching DoF siege combat. We all played these games for countless months, and siege experience always left a bad feeling, even in games like Stronghold.

Let me address some of your questions (luckily I directly worked with DoF sieges, and this is a topic I am well familiar with)

Our approach to sieges and walls in general: walls are not just a small obstacle in way of one army reaching another, it’s a gameplay field we force players to take.

...just attack a single wall or corner, this means only one Catapult and defensive wall stands to fire back.

Won’t work. Yes, it would take few Trebuchets around a minute and a half to bring down a wall. But – the large bunch of rubble a damaged wall is not something your units can get other, and besides - wall mounted Trebuchet would fire back and easily take down all of your 'few' Trebuchets in less than a minute.

Don't make walls disapear, make them become a bunch of rumble that the enemie slowly has to cross over or jump over

Exactly the case.. It`s quite easy for catapults to damage the wall, making it impassible by units. You can even take down the tower. But - to get inside your units would have to climb over and open the gate from inside.

Well everyone just masses about 10 catapults, fires at the wall it disapears infantry come outta nowhere without taking any damage at all run in win.
In Dawn of Fantasy - you have to scale the walls. You have to build very cheap siege towers and ladders, which can be constructed right by the wall by your simple army units - BUT - you have to climb them and fight enemy units on the walls.

supagu
04-10-2008, 01:27 AM
+ if units cant walk on top of each other like in strongholds, you cant just squeeze a whole army through 1 little gap in the wall... congestion kills :D

†TYRANICK†™
04-10-2008, 02:34 AM
@ Konstantin

Those sound like great ideas in prevention spam of sections on walls and stuff, specially the rumble idea and stuff.

But they way you make it sound is that destroying walls is not the way to access the base...you seem to be implying the only way is via gate or something...i would assume surely eventually that if enough punishment was done to the walls, then eventually you could begin to access there base, but meh. Sound pretty cool on what your planning but..you dont want to be indestructable :p

crex719
04-10-2008, 05:12 AM
@ Konstantin

Those sound like great ideas in prevention spam of sections on walls and stuff, specially the rumble idea and stuff.

But they way you make it sound is that destroying walls is not the way to access the base...you seem to be implying the only way is via gate or something...i would assume surely eventually that if enough punishment was done to the walls, then eventually you could begin to access there base, but meh. Sound pretty cool on what your planning but..you dont want to be indestructable :p

I want to be indestructable :p This is some great news here! Truly a revolutionary RTS!

SvN
04-10-2008, 07:43 AM
Won’t work. Yes, it would take few Trebuchets around a minute and a half to bring down a wall.


I think the catapult should do less damage to walls. In medival sieges, catapults were mostly used to take out towers and fragile wall sections, like a wooden bastion. You cant just make a hole in a massive wall with a stone, that's unrelevant.

Joseph Visscher
04-10-2008, 10:52 AM
@ Konstantin
But they way you make it sound is that destroying walls is not the way to access the base...you seem to be implying the only way is via gate or something...


The Gate is a way to enter a base, but you'll need a good deal of troops and a few good battering rams. most of your enimies army will be around the front gate.
But its not the only way, theres ladders and siege towers, and 'other units' that give access to wall peices, they attach themselves and your units ( or the enemies') can use it as a pathway right up on the walls to hopfuly fight there way along the walls and down the stairs or. to get down into the stronghold..

What strategy im thinking of, is this,
Keep your main army with battering rams hidden infront of the stronghold, then send a small army with a seige tower around to the back side of the stronghold, where less guys would be defending it on the walls.
Quickly attach the siege tower and get this small army on the walls to provide a Distraction behind the stronghold, and hopefuly the enemy would move most or all of his army up and around to the backside of his walls to fight off my small decoy army. then, when his army is occupide with that, i rush the front gate and swarm in!

I'm gona try this stat on Kon when we play, he wont know what hit him!;)

The Witch King of Angmar
04-10-2008, 11:05 AM
Sounds good to me. This game really implements strategy in warfare which really appeals to me.

†TYRANICK†™
04-10-2008, 11:47 AM
The Gate is a way to enter a base, but you'll need a good deal of troops and a few good battering rams. most of your enimies army will be around the front gate.
But its not the only way, theres ladders and siege towers, and 'other units' that give access to wall peices, they attach themselves and your units ( or the enemies') can use it as a pathway right up on the walls to hopfuly fight there way along the walls and down the stairs or. to get down into the stronghold..

What strategy im thinking of, is this,
Keep your main army with battering rams hidden infront of the stronghold, then send a small army with a seige tower around to the back side of the stronghold, where less guys would be defending it on the walls.
Quickly attach the siege tower and get this small army on the walls to provide a Distraction behind the stronghold, and hopefuly the enemy would move most or all of his army up and around to the backside of his walls to fight off my small decoy army. then, when his army is occupide with that, i rush the front gate and swarm in!

I'm gona try this stat on Kon when we play, he wont know what hit him!

Pretty good strategy there...but would be significantly flawed against a professional turtle such as me :P (OK i exaggerate lol chill)

I always make sure, in strategy games, to keep my entire base equally defended and allow a smooth transition of re-enforcements to particular areas (if there under attack) whilst never dispatching ANY of my major forces away from critical points in my base. I always distribute evenly around my base and only move partial portions of my inner defenses to spots under attack or rely them either way.

Of course if i was attacked heavily from all sides then a significant shift of defense would be needed, such as trying to control the more powerful units and take them down first, then lead away weaker units, and keep close eye on the tactical map :D. Then again I would try building walls and small bastions and defenses in choke points of maps, focusing heavily on crippling enemy forces movement around a map or any crucial areas.

Oh and did i forget to mention ambushes? hehe :P

That leads me onto another question.

Will there be any form of stealth or tactical units which have reduced detection from normal units...or maybe blend in with the environment? That would be cool...

+ Back onto siege it self, will there be any of these structures/units talked about in the first two levels dialogue? Such as...boiling oil, tumbling rocks and trenches? Or maybe a mote? Hehe a mote and draw bridge would be sweet :P

+ One thing ive always wanted to see in a game like this...is really high "high ground" pieces of land such as hills/ cliffs/ or even mountains, would be brilliant to build a base on like a mountain peak and have an even greater advantage over you enemies due to them struggling up hill hehe...maybe even environmental effects such as...tumbling rocks or avalanches or some other forms of using the environment to your advantage would be great...hiding units in dense forests, settings traps (maybe a hero ability), all good ideas i reckon =D.

Which reminds me, we gonna see a "cover" system in DOF? Like light or heavy or negative/exposed cover, defensive or offense bonus's and such?

Oh and by the way if your putting in trebuchets...please make them MASSIVE. Very irritating in AOE that they were so small :(. You never got the feeling or sound effects that you really were hurling massive boulders through the air...take "Kingdom of heaven" or "lord of the rings" as good examples to look at...excellent dynamic attention to detail and sound on siege equipment in those films . Specially when they start smashing through the walls X_X...epic!

Would be soooo cool to zoom all the way down to a hero point of view, walk towards a wall and suddenly have a massive explosion in front of you as the rocks and debris go flying everywhere as a ball of rock and fire smashes through your gate or wall =D...now that really would be supreme gameplay! I so hope DOF game effects are similar to that, because it so deserves it :D.

Oh and BTW (night time battles + trebuchets/catapults x flaming boulders of rock = Epic 1337 win! =D)

Puppeteer
04-10-2008, 12:16 PM
Will the flying debris damage units in it's path?
Also, are siege engines going to malfunction and misfire? It would be more likely if attacking trebuchets were to collapse, as they were not put up carefully. Mounted catapults would be carefully positioned and should be more accurate...

SvN
04-10-2008, 02:06 PM
take "Kingdom of heaven" or "lord of the rings" as good examples to look at...excellent dynamic attention to detail and sound on siege equipment in those films . Specially when they start smashing through the walls X_X...epic!

Would be soooo cool to zoom all the way down to a hero point of view, walk towards a wall and suddenly have a massive explosion in front of you as the rocks and debris go flying everywhere as a ball of rock and fire smashes through your gate or wall =D...now that really would be supreme gameplay! I so hope DOF game effects are similar to that, because it so deserves it :D.

Oh and BTW (night time battles + trebuchets/catapults x flaming boulders of rock = Epic 1337 win! =D)

ahh, I can see it before me:rolleyes: that would be great:) and the soundeffects are really important, remember the sounds of the orc catapults shooting on the wall in rotk? that was awsome:D

Feweh
04-10-2008, 03:34 PM
Uh.. also.


Is there any fallback position... like the Castle i suppose?

But from the video it looked so freaken close to the outer wall?

I hope that as soon as they get into the wall it's not just, oh crap im dead and im gonna lose buildings like crazy.??

†TYRANICK†™
04-10-2008, 03:48 PM
Uh.. also.


Is there any fallback position... like the Castle i suppose?

But from the video it looked so freakin close to the outer wall?

I hope that as soon as they get into the wall it's not just, oh crap im dead and im gonna lose buildings like crazy.??

Nah it wont be dont worry :)

I'm sure there will be a powerful building that you can build which could act as a standing defense, and just as good offense. Such as as castle or a maybe even a citadel? That would rock...a bit like a wonder in AOE, crap loada HP but be able to attack back :p

Dam i got more question...hell ill go post in my thread lol

The Witch King of Angmar
04-10-2008, 05:19 PM
Yes they can be customized to be moved somewhat so you'll have 2 or 3 levels of castles to fall back too. It gives me the Minas Tirith feel to the castle.

Feweh
04-10-2008, 06:10 PM
I'd imagine then the sieges would be huge.....

Like honestly, after the first wall all your siege towers and catapults and ladders would be used, so you'd need to keep pressing..


But thats what im hoping?

You know, take the first wall then the enemie can sit there for abit and wait 10-15 minutes before bringing and reinforcements.

I like the fact that i dont have to feel rushed into taking over a castle. Like really if you've taken the first wall most likely you'll want to regather your troops and such.

Then again depends how the "Recruiting Units" thing works.. because then you can expect a counter-attack.

Konstantin Fomenko
04-11-2008, 08:41 AM
You know, take the first wall then the enemy can sit there for a bit and wait 10-15 minutes before bringing and reinforcements.

I think the only chance of this happening, if your 'noob enemy`s' mom calls him out to dinner, and he forgets to resign:)

When it comes to actual siege combat, things will move at a fast pace in DoF. Don`t expect your typical siege to take more than 5 minutes, unless your enemy has really dug in.

And as far as reinforcement goes, don`t forget the army camp. Almost always when sieging a castle you`ll need to set-up an army camp right before his walls. You can build cheap units like basic archers, and all kinds of siege weapons, as well as heal your troops in your army camp. So you won`t need to worry about time it takes you to reinforce your troops that much.

To counter the point that player inside that Stronghold is done-for, keep in mind that scaling walls creates an obstacle which puts defenders at almost 2 against 1 advantage. Add the fact that players, especially Elves can have a good deal of their resource production inside their town on top of that, but most importantly - the fact that if first wave of attackers fails to get inside - town player will loot all the dead bodies and have enougth resouces to mount a counter attack.

So in a way - yes, sieges would usually take just a few minutes for a massive battle to take place, and either town defenders to get killed, or be in a position where they can ride out and lift the siege.

I have attached a brand new screenshot to show the concept of army camp right by the castle walls. There are two army camps on that screenshot - so imagine - you and your ally about to lay waste to that town.

http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/RND2/4.jpg

frankein_fish
04-11-2008, 09:10 AM
:eek: My EEG went: BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Jean=A=Luc
04-11-2008, 12:54 PM
Youza! :eek:

Puppeteer
04-11-2008, 01:10 PM
;) nice !!!

The Witch King of Angmar
04-11-2008, 02:13 PM
Ooooooh.............................

†TYRANICK†™
04-11-2008, 03:16 PM
HOLY CRAP!!!! That's what am talking about!! Total chaos is what that looks as if it will turn into, and you call those "camps"? ROFL, there more like front line mini forts! Even better haha. Lol that towns gonna get pwned, it only appears to have its main outer walls and when they go...PAIN >< :D.

I had no idea that's what you meant by camps, i was thinking just some units which could build a few small structures, produce a few quick siege units to have a stab at the city hehe, not a full blown secondary mid field base xD Great stuff =D.

I would assume the differences in armour/hp wise between those palisade walls and the fortified stone city walls is considerably large i would hope =] (stupid question i know but...in some rts's theres just no diff). But wow...so cool, such a tease though grrr! =D

Man....just awesome! Which raises more questions :p:

- Will those trebuchets be able to reach the city's walls from that distance?
- If they do...how fast will the reload time be on them?
- How would the player in the city then counter? I.E. what would be a good tactic? I would assume some very fast moving infantry are cavalry to many come out 2 sides gates on the city, flanking the siege equipment, and then initiating a complete pincer attack on the siege equipment, and whilst the player is busy trying to keep you off his siege gear, your very own siege, or general structure attacking units come slowly up from behind to assault there "camps", almost a sorta "DENIED!!!!!!!!!" for your enemy hehe ^^. Well that's how I'd do it anyway.

BTW i see a lot of infantry behind the camp walls...wow imagine if like 6 gates opened at once and you just see 1000's of units rush towards the walls with boulders flying over your head and arrows whizzing past...

That would be a great moment for maybe a "cinematic camera" or something along those lines, or a First Person Perspective in which you literally see through 1 individual unit eyes...that would be epic, or some "follow" cam which works in the same way except you can freely look around...and see for your self that rock of death come hurtling at your :D...and then to zoom all the way back out to near tactical level...truly, if you guys really do allow fully scalable camera angles (and maybe let us set up our own like said above) We could create our own movies or something hehe that would ROCK!...I assume you would allow us to save a reply of the battle?

Ooh...I so cant wait for this now, need...more...videos...cant......wait.........>< hehe that will keep me soundly dreaming for a while though hehe, thanks fomenko :D

Feweh
04-11-2008, 03:54 PM
I really hate it when the enemy has long range catapults/trebuchets and they just sit there constantly pounding at any troops you have on the wall etc.



Also, you mentioned you can gather resources from the dead enemies.


Can you emphasize on that?

The Witch King of Angmar
04-11-2008, 04:41 PM
The concept is basically depending on what unit it is and how much it was upgraded or cost, you can gain resources from dead corpses of the enemies soldiers.

†TYRANICK†™
04-11-2008, 05:07 PM
I really hate it when the enemy has long range catapults/trebuchets and they just sit there constantly pounding at any troops you have on the wall etc.



Also, you mentioned you can gather resources from the dead enemies.


Can you emphasize on that?

Your being unnecessarily negative you know, I assume you've been reading whats been said about siege?

Its not like other games where if someone was to amass a single unit the game is won simply due to the overpowering nature of the unit.

Technically in my opinion if your stupid enough to sit back and get you self into those kinds of situations its your own fault...but the example screenshot from posted would not be a particularly difficult situation to get out of, considering you have units and know how to manage them.

Looking closer at the image you dont see any trebuchets firing do you? So I doubt they will have that much of a extreme range, if they did, im sure your cities defences will include long range counter measures.

But what do you expect? To be in a completely invulnerable situation where nothing can damage any of your defenses? For example, the turtle strategy doesn't work like that, it works by building up a base and emphasising priority on defense, choking, resources, and slowing enemy movement with those defenses as much as possible...up to a point of course...THEN you slowly begin to amass an army your self, which you can afford to exhaust all at once since if your wiped...you dont have to worry about your main base being swamped as soon as you leave...remember "defence" shouldn't be seen as to mean the same as "invulnerable". Your defenses are designed to slow, hinder, distract, surprise and to maybe overwhelm your enemy...NOT to cripple them...crippling is what your amassed army is for.

@ Your question.

Its called unit looting, you "loot" (or technically speaking, recycle) dead troops and stuff into resources which you can use against your enemy for a counter attack, hence my strategy I explained above to counter the situation in the screenshot (upon consideration obviously).

Nothing is set in stone dude, there will (most of the time) only be massively powerful strategies, and not massively powerful units. Then again even if there were, I wouldn't expect to seen billions of them. maybe only a few at a time or even just 1 that "has a chance" to severely shift the game in your favour...or your enemies of course.

Trebuchets...or maybe even things like, or similarly named to, the "Doom bringers", which AFAIK where like trebuchets except they were around twice the size, twice as slow, but hurled dozens of much bigger rocks/boulders than a standard trebuchets ammunition...Imagine throwing a tennis ball at someone, only to have them through an entire bag of footballs back at you, that sort of scale...but had a bit less range in terms of it to be fully utilised.

But they were rather later on in technology so I'm not sure if DOF will cover that period since it was right at the end of the era upon when they (or we technically) moved on to proper use gunpowder and other forms of ranged, heavy damage dealing military machines.

Having said all that, we will have to wait and see for our selves via some more in game footage and eventually, the demo :)

Feweh
04-13-2008, 06:08 PM
Not being negative at all.


If you've played Stronghold or Stronghold 2 you've felt how fustrating it is when the enemie sits so far away from your base with 10 trebuchets and just constantly FIRE AND FIRES AND FIRES.

See in Stronghold when catapults or trebuchets hit your walls your men went flying and always died when they fell. So you could arm your wall with everything possible and they'd just sit back and destroy you with a trebuchet and a few archers.

As (forgot your name :( ) the producer said, walls arent just going to disapear which is a big relief, because in other games the wall just disapears and the enemy walks in, kills the fun. So what i want is a system that makes thing fun, makes sieges sieges.

Now of course theres gonna be catapults and stuff, but they should be used to destroy towers (Not completely) and wall parts, not completely destroy the wall etc.

†TYRANICK†™
04-13-2008, 07:32 PM
Not being negative at all.


If you've played Stronghold or Stronghold 2 you've felt how fustrating it is when the enemie sits so far away from your base with 10 trebuchets and just constantly FIRE AND FIRES AND FIRES.

See in Stronghold when catapults or trebuchets hit your walls your men went flying and always died when they fell. So you could arm your wall with everything possible and they'd just sit back and destroy you with a trebuchet and a few archers.

As (forgot your name :( ) the producer said, walls arent just going to disapear which is a big relief, because in other games the wall just disapears and the enemy walks in, kills the fun. So what i want is a system that makes thing fun, makes sieges sieges.

Now of course theres gonna be catapults and stuff, but they should be used to destroy towers (Not completely) and wall parts, not completely destroy the wall etc.

Ahh sorry, just sounded as if you were being negative :P

No offense but the strongholds games are...well crap lol, there rather weak attempts at mimicking good siege warfare.

Well first off you have to take into consideration the actually power of a 20 ton boulder hurling down from the sky at about 100+ mph...that's eventually going to start to do some pretty devastating damage to you and your walls/defenses.

Walls will not disappear so i hear, their rumble will be left behind which will provide a bit of added struggle to ground units mainly infantry, but of course inevidently units will get through the walls, push back, destroy or open your gates and then your in the sh1t lol.

You mention a lot of what you dont want to happen...but dont actually elaborate about what you do want to happen :p. Make sieges sieges and make it fun...yeah but what do you suggest?

What other units do you think would be able to take a down a wall? Well AFAIK a battering ram will do the job very well. But then again vulnerable to infantry. Trebuchets were originally designed to knock wall mounted defenses off cities such as archers so...you cant down their real life historical origins lol, Oh as well a spread disease and famine into the cities as well, via rotting...all sorts hehe. Then usually whilst your enemy is running around disoriented, you try your best to get your siege towers up close to the walls so you can begin to climb over them, and fight your way through then, and climbs back further over to invade the city full scale.

Walls shouldn't protect you from everything, there not designed to withstand Armageddon (imagine that hehe), they are there as said loads of times, to hinder and slow your enemies movements (and of course to take serious punishment as well, to better enable you to control your opponent), so you can get onto the counter offensive which would be via Cavalry and infantry for the siege equipment, and your own archers and catapults to batter there forward bases and troops into retreating. Turtling just means gradual...it NEVER means sit there and do nothing...its a "wait for them to come to you, to get suppressed by your defenses, then to get crippled by you army that's been lay in wait for opponent" kinda thing.

I really wouldn't worry, DoF's system sounds incredibly intuitive even at this stage :)

Tynesider
04-16-2008, 12:25 PM
Wouldn't that be the way It was In real life, The attacker will naturally attack the weakest section.
It's then upto the defender to breach the gap with the right troops on the principal of It's easier to defend than to attack.
Or an expendable cavalry force to destroy expensive siege equipment and troops.

LordSlayer
04-18-2008, 04:03 PM
Yea but in real life the siege equipment wasn't protected by a wall of 12 foot high ogres with clubs that are bigger than a humain!

You have to understand this is fantasy. It doesn't have to be 100% realistic siege warfare.

WearisomeWall
04-18-2008, 04:19 PM
If you want realism, don't play a fantasy game.

Neotyguy40
04-18-2008, 08:52 PM
Pwnage :eek:

Puppeteer
04-19-2008, 06:44 AM
Although the creatures are different, the logic remains there; attack the weakest spot. Just because the creatures are from fantasy doesn't mean logic and realism should be turned on its head. Heck, let's let fire burn down stone walls and swords have no affect on people whilst we're at it.

LordSlayer
04-19-2008, 03:36 PM
Heck, let's let fire burn down stone walls and swords have no affect on people whilst we're at it.

I admit that there should be enought realism so that the game doesn't seem totally random, but I think that fantasy should let the player use illogical tactics and win even if no real-life commander would have ever even remotly taugh of it.

Puppeteer
04-20-2008, 02:55 PM
Let's reload our catapults with men and fire it at the other direction, that'll get down the wall. Heck, forget the ladder, bring a fireman's pole that's better. Actually, stuff that, let's kill our own troops and see if that kills the enemy's instead.