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View Full Version : It seems like from what im reading, the orcs are a little Underpowered.


Gwydion
12-04-2010, 11:26 PM
So I understand how humans work- great tech, economy, and legions of people in armor.

Elves are great archers and spellcasters.

Now the orcs i have read about they are supposed to have nasty (really strong) troops, a weak economy, and crappy castles.

Recently ive been seeing a few poeple post that the orcs really don't have a unit that is stronger than the other races besides like the ogre i think its called.

If the orcs castles and economy is crap which is a HUDGE setback especially with the economy part, there rank and file orc should at least be a little stronger than his mirror unit for the humans and the same except the archers for elves

Benighted
12-05-2010, 04:52 AM
could any developer provide clearer analysis concerning this issue?

Alex Walz
12-05-2010, 11:44 AM
The orcs are the favorite faction of many of the devs, including myself.

While most of their units are weaker than those of the other races, this is made up for in the sheer size of their force. Individual orc battalions are larger and orcs typically have a greater population count - not to mention that laborers and marauders train automatically for no resources. The ogre is the most powerful non-merc unit in the game and can wipe out entire battalions of men or elves. The berserker is another really powerful orc unit that, in large numbers, can devastate an army. Their ranged units aren't quite up to par, but they're meant to be a great offensive horde, not an organized defense.

Crappy castles... not true. Granted that some features such as additional counter-siege mechanisms and larger gatehouses haven't been implemented yet for the orcs and elves, the orcs still have strong walls with spiked gates that will kill anyone they fall on.

Economy... early game, it's great. They're nomads and hunters. And when they run out of wild deer, they can build a warg farm which will automatically train free wargs that the orcs can raise as livestock. They may pick up trading later in the game but overall, they have a pretty balanced economy.

Nimlot
12-05-2010, 04:19 PM
Their ranged units aren't quite up to par, but they're meant to be a great offensive horde, not an organized defense.

Economy... early game, it's great. They're nomads and hunters. And when they run out of wild deer, they can build a warg farm which will automatically train free wargs that the orcs can raise as livestock. They may pick up trading later in the game but overall, they have a pretty balanced economy.



First there you say their ranged units arent as good as the rest, but the info i read about the forest orcs is that they have good archers. Does this mean those orcs actually have good archers or just "good for orcs"?
Its hard to interpret when they have a bonus to something they are really bad at from the start

And about their economy, some people theorize they will be dedicated rushers and if men/elves survive the start of a game they will stomp the orc with their greater economy later. Can you please confirm this is not the case? ;)

Marcos182
12-05-2010, 04:23 PM
Will the orcs have cavalry? like Warg riders?

I'm sure they have to have some sort of fast unit, but will they be a bit slower? since they already have the large numbers and will pretty much rely on overwhelming other races, I think their cavalry or fast unit should be either slower or signifantly weaker then other cavalry

evilwithin
12-05-2010, 04:28 PM
Will the orcs have cavalry? like Warg riders?

yes their mele units can mount their wargs which thay breed

Aothane
12-05-2010, 06:36 PM
And about their economy, some people theorize they will be dedicated rushers and if men/elves survive the start of a game they will stomp the orc with their greater economy later. Can you please confirm this is not the case?

my guess would be that rather than an all-or-nothing rush strategy, the essential idea would be for the Orcs to (more capably) apply pressure in the early stages of a game. As long as they can make reasonable use of these particular advantages the Orc player is utilising their faction's strengths appropriately. Where expecting to match other armies in their key and defining abilities would obviously be less than judiciously balanced.

for myself I am a little dissapointed to hear that Elves are primarily defensive, which is not typical of my style; although of course defence has it's necessary place and time in the course of battle.

-Sigma-
12-05-2010, 07:35 PM
So I understand how humans work- great tech, economy, and legions of people in armor.

Elves are great archers and spellcasters.

Now the orcs i have read about they are supposed to have nasty (really strong) troops, a weak economy, and crappy castles.

Recently ive been seeing a few poeple post that the orcs really don't have a unit that is stronger than the other races besides like the ogre i think its called.

If the orcs castles and economy is crap which is a HUDGE setback especially with the economy part, there rank and file orc should at least be a little stronger than his mirror unit for the humans and the same except the archers for elves

As silly as this might sound, think of the orcs as the Zerg from Starcraft. In the essence of being deadly in large numbers.

The key with orcs it seems is just tactically using them, rather then throwing endless numbers offensively, strategy will really come into play. I think that if Orc players are very tactical and micro well that they will be pretty hard to stop.

whitewing91
12-05-2010, 07:43 PM
another zerg :( Orcs should be more powerful than that

shawnchi
12-05-2010, 07:46 PM
You'd think they'd have strong castles :\

Yes They are underpowered.. Pity, orcs are my favorite D:

-Sigma-
12-05-2010, 07:54 PM
another zerg :( Orcs should be more powerful than that

Dont forget some of the best players in starcraft are Zerg. Their micro skills are amazing and it really shows just how good they can be.

Im very sure orcs are just like that, and if so they'll be a race thats feared.

Lord_Itzalak
12-05-2010, 09:21 PM
While most of their units are weaker than those of the other races, this is made up for in the sheer size of their force. Individual orc battalions are larger and orcs typically have a greater population count - not to mention that laborers and marauders train automatically for no resources. The ogre is the most powerful non-merc unit in the game and can wipe out entire battalions of men or elves. The berserker is another really powerful orc unit that, in large numbers, can devastate an army. Their ranged units aren't quite up to par, but they're meant to be a great offensive horde, not an organized defense.

Crappy castles... not true. Granted that some features such as additional counter-siege mechanisms and larger gatehouses haven't been implemented yet for the orcs and elves, the orcs still have strong walls with spiked gates that will kill anyone they fall on.

Economy... early game, it's great. They're nomads and hunters. And when they run out of wild deer, they can build a warg farm which will automatically train free wargs that the orcs can raise as livestock. They may pick up trading later in the game but overall, they have a pretty balanced economy.

I don't know how much I'll believe this game until I see it. It sounds ridiculously realistic and not vanilla...it's why I've been so excited for it for the past year but still can't believe it when I read things about the game from the developers.

Concerning the underpoweredness of Orcs...until you see something in action, you really have no idea. I mean, even after the game is played for a week or two, you still have little idea until strategies come out and you start to learn how to play a race to be most effective. And with all of these betas, wouldn't Orc players give feedback like, this doesn't seem to work or I have a bunch of units that can't do anything. I think we shouldn't be worried until the final copy has come out and we've played for awhile. Or get into a beta and play as orcs and give constructive feedback.

Avatarn11
12-05-2010, 09:58 PM
I'm sure all races have the advantages and disadvantages no one is going to make an imbalanced game because people won't play those races if it isn't balanced. It all depends on your play style people like using starcraft as view point the zerg are great if you can micromanage them properly. But you get a built up protoss or terran force will chew through zerg like no other. so its all checks and balances in any strategy game. Open field the orcs might be unstoppable and run over elves and humans. get some terrian advantage to the elves or humans they could take out the orcs ect ect.. Just have to wait and see who you like more.

-Sigma-
12-05-2010, 10:15 PM
I'm sure all races have the advantages and disadvantages no one is going to make an imbalanced game because people won't play those races if it isn't balanced. It all depends on your play style people like using starcraft as view point the zerg are great if you can micromanage them properly. But you get a built up protoss or terran force will chew through zerg like no other. so its all checks and balances in any strategy game. Open field the orcs might be unstoppable and run over elves and humans. get some terrian advantage to the elves or humans they could take out the orcs ect ect.. Just have to wait and see who you like more.

Thats exactly right.

I think most people also are just thinking about sieging or defending a siege. There will be many battles in the a open field that will give massive advantages to those that are the victor. Lets say a Horde of orcs are marching upon an Elven Fortress. And the Elves wish to meet the orcs in open field.

The orcs might obliterate the army and march forward to a very defenseless fortress making the attacker have ease in a siege. There are many things to look into but overall the Beta will determine just how underpowered the orcs are, the devs play them a lot also, so they have a general idea of whats going on.

I really wouldn't worry to be honest. :)

Radman
12-05-2010, 10:20 PM
Exactly and even if orc are slightly weaker defensively doesnt mean that they will always lose, you also have to take the skill of the player into account and im sure the developers are aware of all the issues and if some turn up at a later date theres nothing to say they cant change some of it in a patch.

Vind
12-06-2010, 02:10 AM
In the end it all balances it self nicely.
If some unit is overpowered it will be nerfed, and if players don't use some units at all they will be made "stronger".
So there is nothing to worry about. Just play the race you feel most comfortable with.

Fangg
12-06-2010, 03:13 AM
The thing Im afraid of is the economy of the Orcs. Sounds like that they are able to control the first part of the game because they are nomads and hunters. If they are able to gather some offensive tropper faster than Elfs and humans in the beginning, will a fast attack before the Elfs and human get the possibility to build defences not make the orc's a overpowered race?

It would be just like in Starcraft 2 with the zerg 6 pooling. Yes the zerg lags economy, but is able to build 4 zerglings that cant wipe out anyone, unless they are able to wall off.

Now I havent played Dawn of fantasy yet, but i hope that will change soon. I think I have to see thing with my own eyes.

Nermal
12-06-2010, 03:34 AM
Allthough I agree in some of the concerns voiced here. I believe we should take it easy, first of all, this isnt a 5-25min multiplayer game like starcraft 2. This is a persistent world where your main base cant be destroyed as I understand it.
So yes Orcs may be somewhat stronger in the beginning, but not like 20% stronger overall. And thats just taking the mecanic of the game into account. Never met many players who play equally well in the same game at all time. Chances are that enviroment, luck alliances etc effects every outcome. So essentially its about hoard all the advantages you can, and utilise them to their fullest extent.
This ofcourse means, that All have to bow to my santa clad & marylin Monroe Orc look alikes soon :p

LoLzLobster
01-19-2011, 01:37 PM
The race that I would want to play are the orcs. So what I'm taking away from this is that in the open field the orcs can be quite deadly (and good at besieging castles), but when defending they aren't quite as effective. Couldn't the orcs sally out of their gatehouses to attack the siegers at the base of the walls? I mean you could while defending open up a gate, send some melee units through, close the gate. And use those guys to attack ladders or siege engines, and if they survive try to get them back through the gatehouse? I would try to aggressively defend as an orc in order to negate their defensive weaknesses.

Does any of that make sense to you guys or am I just insane?

olane123
01-19-2011, 01:46 PM
the orcs i hope willl be shamanistic having low level mages controling hordes of drone orcs with enslaved ogres and minotaurs the sort of ragtag army you would expect from them having rare creatures like beholders or evil eyes as cannon fodder

hopefiully the races will be balenced with the players relying more on troop deployment

as for the econnomy and castles the orcs hopefully being orginized and ruthless will have taken better formed human or elven structures and stolen their gold :D or minerals depending on the looting system

:D

GPS51
01-19-2011, 01:47 PM
Sounds good to me. I really like the orcs. I always believe that an aggressive defense is best. It takes a certain unit layout to really use it well. Also keep in mind that you may be able to destroy siege equipment with your own counter siege equipment thereby keeping your units safe.

LoLzLobster
01-19-2011, 01:55 PM
I was a really big fan of the stronghold series and I had some really offence defence strategies based around drawing the enemy close, springing traps and then rushing my melee shock troops out to mop the enemy's 1st wave (or whole army LOL) up.

I also think as an orc having two layers of walls would allow you to use your orc swarminess to your advantage... once they breach the first wall you can let your melee units flood out into the space between the outer and inner walls to carve them up!

omardigs
01-19-2011, 02:06 PM
From what I have seen in most game Orcs mainly focus on power over management. They would seem to be the very best at the early game since their tech is not as advanced but they don't need much to fight so they early tech is better than the early tech of man but as Man advances to better tech they outpace those of the orcs until the point that Orcs have to focus on power and numbers to win.

GPS51
01-19-2011, 02:11 PM
What's interesting is that I think orcs need more micro then any other race. From their epicly good formations to using the unit combos properly. Not for the faint of heart but quite possibly the strongest army correctly used. IE You're either good or really bad with orcs.

billy341
01-31-2011, 07:12 AM
balance comes with testing, thats what betas are about :P

Adonai_80
02-03-2011, 07:56 PM
I think orcs shouldn't really have strong defences - they seem more berserk (or berzerg) :)

arthas242
02-03-2011, 08:59 PM
Orcs are the God race, silly elf's and humans will bow before my might of a ORCISH ARMY

Dawiichan
02-03-2011, 09:07 PM
Orcs sound like a class that has a greater army population that fights in larger groups. While the individual troops may be bad compared to others, the cost of getting them isn't as bad.

arthas242
02-03-2011, 09:08 PM
aka like zerg of starcraft someone said, deadly with number's

Stormeh
02-03-2011, 09:26 PM
Essentially they are quantity over quality with the majority of their units.
that's not such a bad thing.

NobleIre
02-04-2011, 09:34 AM
Orcs sound, to me, to be a challenge. They don't sound weaker, just perhaps more complicated to play. The elves have a very stable economy to make their play 'simpler'. With orcs, it seems that if you can balance these things out well yourself - then you'll have a strong force.

I'm actually leaning towards choosing orc as my army, just 1. because I never quite got around to making an orc army in WH40k ( ;) Gotta love those orcs), and 2. because they look more challenging.

Raulaun
02-04-2011, 09:40 AM
I definitely have to say that orcs are much harder to play, elves seem to be the easiest, and humans are inbetween.

Noel Bohac
02-04-2011, 10:41 AM
The orcs are the favorite faction of many of the devs, including myself.
.....



Grrrrr.... The fist of MAN will show you the error of your ways!



((on topic: orcs are very VERY viable don't think differently))


This is "my personal opinions" and in no way reflect those to Reverie World Studios, 505 games or any subsidiarity there in.
(He loves orcs and goblins, the next thing will be trolls on the backs of dragons with rocket launchers!!!! You watch !!!)

NobleIre
02-04-2011, 01:47 PM
I've been looking over the orc units and formations more and I think they really have the potential to pack a very dangerous punch. We're talking Falcon Punch here. ;) They definitely have some weaknesses, it's just up to the player to compensate for those. I shall lead my orcs on the warpath!

Beat the drums of war! Cry for the blood of the elves and humans - let them hear our battle-roar!

*Meow*


Gartok! WE DO NOT MEOW IN BATTLE!

Raulaun
02-04-2011, 02:01 PM
I saw an orc meow.

True story.

He was killed by his brethren, as they thought he was cursed, however.

NobleIre
02-04-2011, 02:23 PM
lol. Guess we'll have to kill him then. ;) Henceforth, my orcs shall be known as the Curse Breaker Clan!

'Wait, Gartok didn't say meow! Ahh! I mean, not meow... but- put down sword! put down sword!!!'

*Splurtch!*

Raulaun
02-04-2011, 02:42 PM
Orcish Cuss/Taboo Words:
Meow
Soft
Plush
Chibi
Disney
Friendly
Nicenessness
Anything that involves positive, friendly or soft texture descriptions.

arthas242
02-04-2011, 02:44 PM
orc's need to only need to know one phrase


FOR THE HORDE!!!!!

Henry Martin
02-04-2011, 03:59 PM
I definitely have to say that orcs are much harder to play, elves seem to be the easiest, and humans are inbetween.

I'm going to have to disagree. The easiest race to use in my opinion is the Humans as they are the most standard race that most people are use to in rts games. The Elves have a bit of a learning curve, as their economy is a lot slower in the beginning (haha don't want to say to much, so don't ruin you guy's fun and for my sack lol). As is mentioned in the Fantasy Fridays the Elves don't kill animals or cut down trees, so this takes a bit to get use to. From the time I have played with the Orcs, I'm going to say that they are between the Humans and the Elves making the Elves the hardest in my opinion.

Like Noel said, this is my opinion and not of Reveries or 505.:)

Noel Bohac
02-04-2011, 04:12 PM
Like Noel said, this is my opinion and not of Reveries or 505.:)

Well you got to make it fun for everyone geez, here let me show you!......



"Like Noel said, this is my opinion and not of Reveries or 505.:)
(He loves humans, the next thing will be wenches on trampolines dominating matrons with virgin throwing catapults!!!)"

NobleIre
02-04-2011, 06:50 PM
Well you got to make it fun for everyone geez, here let me show you!......



"Like Noel said, this is my opinion and not of Reveries or 505.:)
(He loves humans, the next thing will be wenches on trampolines dominating matrons with virgin throwing catapults!!!)"

I would like to give this idea... my stamp of approval!

Mokhir
02-05-2011, 09:08 AM
I believe you just have to micro well like with zerg and orc will be immensly fun. Whats more fun the kicking ass and taking names with a three legged chair?

LiTos456
02-05-2011, 11:35 AM
Im sure this has been already mentioned, but the orcs' strength is in numbers.

NobleIre
02-05-2011, 11:55 AM
Im sure this has been already mentioned, but the orcs' strength is in numbers.

Yup! 30+12= 500 orcs! ORCS WIN!


Orc Math - we always win.

darklegends8
02-06-2011, 11:57 PM
As silly as this might sound, think of the orcs as the Zerg from Starcraft. In the essence of being deadly in large numbers.

The key with orcs it seems is just tactically using them, rather then throwing endless numbers offensively, strategy will really come into play. I think that if Orc players are very tactical and micro well that they will be pretty hard to stop.

I always thought of orcs as swarming without much strategy, and making up any weakness with pure numbers.

Manasky
02-07-2011, 05:10 AM
You get free warriors. 'nuff said! ;)