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Alex Walz
03-19-2010, 02:49 PM
FANTASY FRIDAY XVIII
Standard Battalion Formations

Thanks for joining us again! Your discussion and feedback is always hugely appreciated in these Fantasy Friday showcases, and we always get a huge morale boost hearing your excitement every week. This Friday we will take a look at the never-before-seen unit formations! As you're probably aware, Dawn of Fantasy simplified gameplay by grouping units into easily-controlled battalions with unique abilities and now, various formations. Each race offers a number of standard formations, in addition to the default formations, that can be applied to every battalion unit except Worker units, Ogres, Wargs, Shamans, Archmages, and Siege Weapons. Orc and Human players will also be able to research unique battalions which are specialized to boost the strongpoints of individual unit types. We will look into some of the unique formations in a later Fantasy Friday, but without further ado, let's look at the standard formations by race:

Humans use a complex battalion system with three standard class formations (available to all battalions of that class) - specializing in defense against melee, in defense against ranged, and in offense. <table width="250" align="right"><tr><td><center><a href="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/9.jpg"><img src="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/9thumb.jpg"></a><br><font size="-2">Human archers prepare to siege Makkada with a line of archers up front, tight battalions in the middle, and loose battalions in the back for maximum efficiency.</font></center></td></tr></table>In addition, each unit type has one unique formation - for specialized use - that boosts that unit's strong points while also increasing the negative effects.

Human melee and ranged battalions start with ten units, with five for cavalry. Battalions can level up by gaining experience through battle until they reach level ten. With each level, players will be rewarded with three skill points that can be used to boost any stat and one unit will be added to the battalion size.

The race of men start with two standard class formations - Tight and Loose. In addition, players can research one unique formation for each unit (which we will look into in another Fantasy Friday) and a third class formation - the Line formation. The three class formations can be further upgraded - into Improved and Expert formations - to increase their benefits. After switching formations, human battalions will have to wait a couple of seconds before switching <table width="250" align="left"><tr><td><center><a href="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/7.jpg"><img src="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/7thumb.jpg"></a><br><font size="-2">Elite human Knight units approach the orc stronghold of Pultak in a single line showing their discipline and impeccability.</font></center></td></tr></table>again to counter out a new enemy wave type.

Available Upgrades/Research:
Improved Tight Formation: +30% to all bonuses
Improved Loose Formation: +30% to all bonuses
Improved Line Formation: +30% to all bonuses
Expert Tight Formation: +30% to all bonuses
Expert Loose Formation: +30% to all bonuses
Expert Line Formation: +30% to all bonuses

The statistical formation benefits varies form class to class, but they're all pretty similar so I'll just present you with the melee infantry statistics, and I can post more in reply posts on request.


Formation Bonuses for Human Infantry

Melee Infantry – Line formation
Line formation is the offensive formation recommended for melee vs melee conflict with the goalof dealing as much damage as fast as possible, with a small decrease in speed.

Bonus:
+30% accuracy
+30% damage
Penalty:
-20% speed
Stance:
-Aggressive Stance

Melee Infantry – Tight formation
This formation is recommended as a defensive tactic ideal for melee combat against strongopponents. Tight formation is vulnerable to large monster attacks, cavalry charges and rangedattacks.
Bonus:
+30% hack armor
+30% defense rating
Penalty:
-20% pierce armor
Stance:<table width="250" align="right"><tr><td><center><a href="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/8.jpg"><img src="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/8thumb.jpg"></a><br><font size="-2">Cavalry take a different approach in reaching Pultak and organize themselves loosely to evade arrow fire</font></center></td></tr></table>
-Stand Ground Stance

Melee Infantry – Loose formation
The primary function of this formation is to avoid ranged damage, as well as minimize cavalrytrample damage with an increased unit mobility at the expense of a decreased defense.
Bonus:
+30% pierce armor
+30% crush armor
+30% speed
Penalty:
-20% defense rating
Stance:
-Aggressive stance



Orc armies use a simplified two-level formation system, with their default formation - the Mob Formation, and a fatigue-consuming Battle formation. Orc units are likely to spend most of their time in the Mob formation and form up into the Battle formation when they need heightened performance in key moments of the battle. However, in some combat situations, mainly defense, the Mob formation can be more advantageous than the Battle formation. On top of this, most Orc units feature a unique formation that gives battalions a new unique function. However, specialized formations are even more temporary than the Battle formation.

Orc melee and ranged battalions start with 14 units, with 5 for cavalry and 10 for goblins and wargs, and battalion <table width="250" align="right"><tr><td><center><a href="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/1.jpg"><img src="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/1thumb.jpg"></a><br><font size="-2">Fully upgraded, level-capped Impalers in the Battle formation are an ominous threat on the battlefield with their greatly increased damage.</font></center></td></tr></table>sizes increment by one with each level - goblin battalions increment by two. With a maximum of ten levels, each level gives three skills points which can be distributed to boost a stat of the player's choice.

Available Upgrades/Research:
Orcs start with no formation available, other than the default Mob formation. However, they can research the Battle formation and one unique formation for each unit. We will look into some of these unique formations in a later showcase. In addition, several military researches improve certain aspects of the Mob and Battle formations.

Battle Formation Research (all research names are subject to change)
Group Charge: Increases Run Speed by 40%.
Discipline: Fatigue drains 50% slower in combat.<table width="250" align="left"><tr><td><center><a href="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/3.jpg"><img src="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/3thumb.jpg"></a><br><font size="-2">The primitive goblin warriors fight in an unorganized, loose Mob formation.</font></center></td></tr></table>
Second Breath: Battle Formation can be activated at 20 fatigue/disabled at 5 - instead of 40/20.

Mob Formation Research (all research names are subject to change)
Strong Will - Increases fatigue regeneration by 50%
Heart of Battle - Fatigue regenerates even in battle.


Formation Bonuses for Orc Infantry

Infantry – Battle formation
This formation is tighter and more disciplined than the default Mob formation, which contradicts the Orcs' nature. Units walk slower, but run faster andperform much better in combat. To balance this, they are vulnerable to cavalry charger and ranged attacks, and stamina drains incombat and twice as fastwhile running.
Bonus:
+20% hack armor
+20% accuracy
+30% damage
+40% run speed(researched)
Penalty:
-30% pierce armor
-30% walk speed<table width="250" align="right"><tr><td><center><a href="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/2.jpg"><img src="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/2thumb.jpg"></a><br><font size="-2">For best results, use mixed formations to take advantage of all the bonuses.</font></center></td></tr></table>
-Fatigue drain 2X while running
-Fatigue drains while in combat
-Fatigue drain in combat 2X less (researched)
Special:
-Switch back to mob at 25 fatigue or lower
-Requires 35 fatigue to activate
Stance:
-Defensive

Infantry – Mob formation
The 'default' formation. Stamina regeneration is increased at all times – and running consumes lessfatigue, including during combat. Units are spread out in loose formations. Orc units will spend the most of the time in this formation.
Bonus:
+50% stamina
Regeneration (researched)
Fatigue regenerates evenin combat (researched)
Penalty:
-None
Stance:
-Aggressive stance



The Elven formations are different from the other races as they are more of a strategic gameplay device rather than tactical. Unlike other races, Elven formations cannot be easily switched and force the player to decide on the formations before the battle. Since each formation switch requires 100 fatigue and a 15 second transition, during which elven units can't do anything, it's best left as a pre-battle decision.

There are only two formations for the elves - Wind and Stone modes. Unlike orc and human formations, there are no unique formations that can be researched for individual races.

Wind Formation:
The Wind formation has the following benefits:<table width="250" align="right"><tr><td><center><a href="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/4.jpg"><img src="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/4thumb.jpg"></a><br><font size="-2">Apart from their unique Diamond formation, the Mounted Grand Masters make the best use out of the Wind formations for maximum charge damage.</font></center></td></tr></table>
-It turns units incredibly lethal, with incredible boosts to damage and attack ratings
-It allows stealth approaches - allowing use of the Hide ability and greatly increases a battalion's View and Range
-It allows for hit-and-run mobility/guerilla warfare, as units gain a significant 40% spped increase, with very little loss of fatigue.

Stone Formation:
The Stone formation has the following benefits:
-Units are greatly protected with significant Armor bonuses, a trample defense, and an increased Defense rating.
-Unit Regeneration - battalions receive a boost to their automatic healing rates and fatigue is restored even during combat.

Switching Formations:
As mentioned earlier, switching formations is a strategic, not tactical, decision. In most cases, players will only be able to switch formations well before combat as the switch drains fatigue (100 points) and makes the unit completely defenseless and immobile for 15 seconds.

However, on higher levels with a greater fatigue reserve, an additional research switch from Stone to Wind becomes available - as in Stone formation, fatigue regenerated even during combat. This strategy could allow the player to make a safe getaway.

Wind Formation Strategies:
The following are viable strategies that are encouraged by the Wind Formation:
-Ambush - using preset hidden melee and ranged units.
-Infiltration - sneaking hidden units inside enemy ranks and attacking, taking advantage of their increased Damage.
-Targeting strong units - using their increased Damage boost, the elves can surprise elite enemy units with their surprising power and stand a better chance at taking them down.
-Long ranged attack - in this formation, ranged units will outrange units even on enemy walls, providing <table width="250" align="left"><tr><td><center><a href="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/6.jpg"><img src="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/6thumb.jpg"></a><br><font size="-2">The Stone formation is a tigher formation for greater defense.</font></center></td></tr></table>a significant advantage in a stronghold raid.

Stone Formation Strategies:
The following are viable strategies that are encouraged by the Stone Formation:
-Fighting off numerous, but weaker, hordes - thanks to their increased Defense and Armor which allows them to absorb many hits before falling.
-Regenerating battalions, with health and fatigue regeneration bonuses.
-Protecting a location or object - again, making use of their heavy Armor.
-Cavalry break-through - Stone formation elves can break cavalry lines and protect other elven troops thanks to their reduction in trample counter-damage.

Available Upgrades/Research:

Improved Wind Formation (working title)
-Increases view by an additional 30%
-Fatigue is no longer consumed during running
-50% reduction to units' range of fire, instead of 100%
-Increases damage by 50%

Stone Research (working title)
-Crash Armor increased by an additional 20%
-Fatigue doesn't stop regenerating during combat.
-80% damage reduction from cavalry charges
-Heal skill efficiency increased by an additional 50%
-The Hide ability can now be used in this formation

Switch Research Level 1 (working title)
-Reduces switch time from 15 to 10 seconds
-Reduce Fatigue consumption to 80 points.

Switch Research Level 2 (working title)
-Reduces switch time from 10 to 5 seconds
-Reduce Fatigue consumption to 60 points.


Formation Bonuses for the Elven Sentry, a standard melee unit.

Wind formation
Bonus:<table width="250" align="right"><tr><td><center><a href="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/5.jpg"><img src="http://reverieworld.com/screenshots/ff18/5thumb.jpg"></a><br><font size="-2">Bladestorms in the triangular Wind formation.</font></center></td></tr></table>
+100% damage
+50% accuracy
+40% speed
+20% view
-Fatigue use up 50% less for run
and hide
Penalty:
Special:
-Requires 100 fatigue
-15 second transition time
Stance:
-Aggressive

Stone formation
Bonus:
+50% Defense Rating
+50% pierce armor
+50% hack armor
+50% crash armor
-Fatigue doesn`t stop regenerating during combat
-50% damage from cavalry charges
+50% to unit’s heal skill efficiency
Penalty:
-No Hide ability
Special:
-Requires 100 fatigue
-15 second transition time
Stance:
-Defensive

otomotopia
03-19-2010, 03:24 PM
Very nice post! I'm excited to see how the orc players will micromanage their formations. A 40% bonus is an absolute ton. Plus having 30 wargs with a level 10 battalion is absolutely amazing.

Red Ranger
03-19-2010, 03:34 PM
Looks pretty cool, but as far as elves, IF I read that correctly it says 100 fat +30sec immobility and then 100 fat 15 sec immobility.

Swift sword
03-19-2010, 04:06 PM
Pretty nice Fantasy Friday, very detailed, and gives players a great look at strategies availiable. I will say that making elven units completely helpess is a bit harsh in regards to formation-may be a 5 second immobility instead of 30? But keep the cooldown? I would'nt think it'd hurt as much and gives elven players a bit more mobility and adaptivity on the battlefield, but if you don't want to do that, I'd suggest special mercenaries that are easily capable of switching formations, just to let diehard elven players experience real-time formation switching a slight bit.

I do like the formations, and they certainly seem fairly balanced to me. I can't tell which would win between line and tight/loose. Sorta hard to tell, which means it's a good balance, most certainly. Also- on one of the pics, it said the reavers were fully upgraded, but I thought it was a bit hard to tell. Just pointing it out, although I did notice (I think? I didn't pay much attnetion to orc infantry looks) some slight differences, I felt they could've been shinier.

Andy Joslin
03-19-2010, 04:09 PM
The 30 seconds was a typo, I fixed it. It is actually 15 at the moment.

And think of it as more of a transformation/transition than just being helpless. Something like the way templars formed archons in Starcraft, for example.

As to the upgrades - if you knew the looks of the units a bit better the differences would be immensely obvious. Once you play a little bit it is easy to see the difference between the orc upgrades (http://reverieworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204).

DarkMaster
03-19-2010, 04:10 PM
Wow, it's wonderful to see how unique each race is, even in their formation styles. As far as I see it, men are fairly "standard", orcs are "wild, screaming horde" (:D) and elves are "Taste my blade!".

Curse you, now the elves are competing for my favourite race! Men still hold the title, though:p . I love it how men are so versatile, even in their battle tactics! I'm guessing the bane of any large battalion of men is gonna be an elven hit-and-run assault.

Thanks for joining us again! Your discussion and feedback is always hugely appreciated in these Fantasy Friday showcases, and we always get a huge morale boost hearing your excitement every week.
Quick, everyone! Get excited! They might finish the game faster!

EDIT: What is the "sparkling" effect on the human knights?

Josh Warner
03-19-2010, 04:11 PM
Formations are my baby right now :o. We're saving all the specials for another showcase I believe, they're even more powerful and distinctive looking. Some of these obviously require adjusting, but it's a cool system we've got going. Those knights, my bad of course, the lines are too close some overlap.

Looks pretty cool, but as far as elves, IF I read that correctly it says 100 fat +30sec immobility and then 100 fat 15 sec immobility.

Myself and Kon have done most of the work on formations, see andy's post regarding the elves combat styles, and it'll probably be changed further. As will the bonus/penalty numbers. Most formations will keep their overall role, but will be buffed or weakened as needed throughout testing.

As I've spent a ton of time working on these in the past few weeks I'd be happy to answer any questions that I can regarding them between working.

EDIT: What is the "sparkling" effect on the human knights?
I believe that's used for the level up spell effect.

sneaky_squirrel
03-19-2010, 04:31 PM
These formations aren't bad at all ;p.

Jean=A=Luc
03-19-2010, 06:31 PM
Wow, this is definitely a more elaborate formation system than I expected to see. Well done guys. :)

Kire
03-19-2010, 06:49 PM
Thank god elves have only 2 formation and not being so useful to change it. Damn i hate micro situational management =P. Whats wrong with just changing to x position, why must they get also strong special bonuses?=). Beside loving how special each rase is and have 1000 little unique details =). Usually balancing kills uniqueness, hope that doesnt happen here =/. And taking my personal experience of "formations where you have to think more =)" (which have also biiiger impact), they are great.

Negthareas
03-19-2010, 06:50 PM
This setup of formations is great! It is much more in depth [and yet still clear] than I had thought it would be!

Elves - GO! GO! GO! GO!

Men - sounds cool. Typical layouts.

Orcs - Fits in very nicely

The Elvish formations threw me completly off. I was expecting something tottally different, yet what you guys came up with fit in perfectly with the game.

I think that the elves are not helpless, merely "without a formation" while switching during that 15 sec timeperiod.


Elves will now be my first player.

Darathor
03-19-2010, 06:51 PM
Very nice! I'm glad to see all the more detailed parts of the game. Those formations looks really interesting, and I can really see how diverse the races really are becoming. The formations also fit the races it seems, the elves, with their incredible patience due to their long lives, take forever to change but gain great bonuses, orcs take little time, but their formations don't last very long due to their chaotic nature, and humans take only a few moments as they are a disciplined fighting force. There really seems to be a whole lot more to this game the more I learn about it. I thought it would be more like a "raise shield" for infantry and that's about it, roughly one situational formation per unit, but this is just plain awesome!:D

Swift sword
03-19-2010, 07:15 PM
The 30 seconds was a typo, I fixed it. It is actually 15 at the moment.

And think of it as more of a transformation/transition than just being helpless. Something like the way templars formed archons in Starcraft, for example.

As to the upgrades - if you knew the looks of the units a bit better the differences would be immensely obvious. Once you play a little bit it is easy to see the difference between the orc upgrades (http://reverieworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204).

Thanks for the response-I know you must have work to do. In any casy, I was under the impression that elves couldn't do anything back to their attackers. If this is the case-surely a battalion would be wiped out within that time period, with no heals or counter-attacking?

Also, you're right, they're very noticable upgrades indeed. Just much more so when you know what you're looking for, I suppose ;) .

Andy Joslin
03-19-2010, 07:53 PM
Thanks for the response-I know you must have work to do. In any casy, I was under the impression that elves couldn't do anything back to their attackers. If this is the case-surely a battalion would be wiped out within that time period, with no heals or counter-attacking?
Elves are completely helpless while transitioning, yes. Elven combat styles are not to be used as on-the-spot battle decisions, but instead before the battle as part of your plan.

The_Biz
03-19-2010, 09:01 PM
formations and special abilities being bundled together... a bit nonstandard, but i guess it can streamline the UI

Justin
03-19-2010, 10:20 PM
So are human and orc transitions instantaneous or do they take a lot shorter than the elves like a second or 2 still? In other words is it ok to switch while your guys are hand to hand fighting the enemy for instance.

blackfang
03-20-2010, 01:27 PM
Ohh yeah, humans use the basic formations of every single battle:) However we need horde mode for humans too, that way they can sacrifice their units without any benefits at all. (just make it a formation so that new players who don't know any better just throws away their armies)

Justin
03-20-2010, 01:31 PM
(just make it a formation so that new players who don't know any better just throws away their armies)

If they read this they will know what it means and despise you :)

The Witch King of Angmar
03-20-2010, 02:14 PM
Awesome! I like seeing a game with unique formations that are easy to use but still diverse like AoE2's formations.

Nice work guys.

welshie
03-20-2010, 02:29 PM
Good to see you havent used a selection for all races and put thought into doing race specific ones, this will add to the gaming experience and also make stragity a must. Expecialy for elves.

blackfang
03-20-2010, 03:37 PM
If they read this they will know what it means and despise you :)

hey don't worry you will fall for it too:rolleyes: I however will be laughing as i hack my way through your army:D

otomotopia
03-21-2010, 01:16 AM
I just did some of the really basic math here...

Orcs can have 30 men archer battalions that do 50 damage per man, not counting upgrades. A single battalion of Goblin Prowlers can put out 1500 damage in a volly, not counting archery upgrades.

That's alot...

Not to mention that with Group Charge and in battle formation, Raiders run at 70.56, do 91 damage, AND can evade all projectiles. Archers are screwed.

Sentry's do a whopping 420 DAMAGE a hit in upgraded Wind formation.

That's a two hit, nearly anything's dead combonation.

Just some fun facts i've seen based on raw data from the unit features and the percentages we've seen here.

sneaky_squirrel
03-21-2010, 09:00 AM
Very interesting, it is a shame lvl 10 armies will hopefully be rare to see in the MMO ;p.

Josh Warner
03-21-2010, 10:10 AM
I just did some of the really basic math here...

Orcs can have 30 men archer battalions that do 50 damage per man, not counting upgrades. A single battalion of Goblin Prowlers can put out 1500 damage in a volly, not counting archery upgrades.

That's alot...

Not to mention that with Group Charge and in battle formation, Raiders run at 70.56, do 91 damage, AND can evade all projectiles. Archers are screwed.

Sentry's do a whopping 420 DAMAGE a hit in upgraded Wind formation.

That's a two hit, nearly anything's dead combonation.

Just some fun facts i've seen based on raw data from the unit features and the percentages we've seen here.

The percentages aren't finalized by any means, right now they're designed to give people a good idea of the formations role, they'll be tweaked to fit it. Also - you're forgetting armor. I don't remember the exact numbers for all the abilities/units, but that 1500 volley in practice is going to be a very small fraction in the neighborhood of a few hundred. And you have to remember - archers do not have perfect aim, you'll rarely if ever hit the unit you actually target and they've also got the chance to miss completely and damage nothing, so all of this damage is going to be very spread out.

I applaud the way you thought about the numbers though, I think like that too.

otomotopia
03-21-2010, 10:25 AM
The percentages aren't finalized by any means, right now they're designed to give people a good idea of the formations role, they'll be tweaked to fit it. Also - you're forgetting armor. I don't remember the exact numbers for all the abilities/units, but that 1500 volley in practice is going to be a very small fraction in the neighborhood of a few hundred. And you have to remember - archers do not have perfect aim, you'll rarely if ever hit the unit you actually target and they've also got the chance to miss completely and damage nothing, so all of this damage is going to be very spread out.

I applaud the way you thought about the numbers though, I think like that too.

Thanks :D

I'd think balance would be in the back of Reverie's mind until beta actually hits, and then it will become second most important issue. It sounds like you guys have some issues with network coding and the server side of things. Balance tweaks are easy to ballpark, so I think that Rev will probably assign only a few guys to fine tune that come third beta-working on crashes is more important to a community then working on balance.

Alex Walz
03-21-2010, 10:46 AM
We have a couple guys who will be doing some QA work for the upcoming build, but yes, most of the QA will be conducted during the beta.

wills370
03-21-2010, 12:57 PM
Sounds great and the unit formations sound like they have diffrent aspects of stratergy in them. The elves seem to as descrbed before have the best mellee/formations in the game. I think they however with there fatigue will need careful planning to keep them from being out manouvered possibly switching units during combat to suit diffrent situations by a means of rotation. (could be intresting if this micro management could be implemented during a large siege).

With regards to the humans they have the most range and look to be the most diverse fighting unit so they will be the choice for the most flexible player.

Hmm which to choose......

GPS51
03-21-2010, 01:07 PM
I like how formations give the players a chance to do something in battle rather then simply click attack and sit back and watch. It keeps people working for the win rather then simply pumping out troops and using mass attrition.

Justin
03-21-2010, 01:54 PM
one more reason for the elves, be lazy, don't bother changing formations during battle.

nickson104
03-21-2010, 02:54 PM
Elves are completely helpless while transitioning, yes. Elven combat styles are not to be used as on-the-spot battle decisions, but instead before the battle as part of your plan.

So theoretically... The elves have the least adaptability to a situation unless they already know the enemies forces and are able to prepare for them...

Mid-battle they may be surprised by reinforcements to the enemy and are trapped in the wind formation whereas really they would be best in the rock formation...

The elves it seems will require far more planning than other races, their units are fewer and more expensive, its possible they could get overrun... Their battle plans must be made in good time before a battle, they will have a lower adaptability in the battle.


Also i have a question... How does the sneak ability work? Is it button click then unlimited invisibility (probably with speed reduction) until they strike a unit?
I think that it should be very short time, probably 10 seconds, and if they are close to the front of enemies they should be partially visible...
Oh and if the arrow trajectory system is as highly advanced as i suspect, is it possible that even sneaking enemies could be hit by stray arrows shot at other battallions?

The Witch King of Angmar
03-21-2010, 03:24 PM
Now, do melee units have a chance to miss as well? I apologize if this has already been asked, I don't always remember.

Thanks

nickson104
03-21-2010, 03:51 PM
Now, do melee units have a chance to miss as well? I apologize if this has already been asked, I don't always remember.

Thanks

I believe they do although the accuracy is pretty high if i remember rightly, if they had no miss chance why would the stance (cant remember which) provide accuracy bonus?

Darathor
03-21-2010, 04:29 PM
Now, do melee units have a chance to miss as well? I apologize if this has already been asked, I don't always remember.

Thanks

Not only do they have an accuracy rating, but also a parry and block rating, or maybe just the parry one. I'm not sure either.

Negthareas
03-21-2010, 07:10 PM
I think that the orc formations should be weakened.

Reasons:

- orcs units are cheap and can be made en masse.
- it would follow the heiarchy better - elves have strongest formations, humans have good formations, orcs [shoud have] weakest formations.

I just think it makes more sense.

sneaky_squirrel
03-21-2010, 08:18 PM
Orcs have not weak but less organized formations, and even orcs are sentient beings as well, so it makes sense for them to have a "Rally up - courageous" formation.

Plus their formations already drain their stamina, I am pretty sure they have balanced them already.

Andy Joslin
03-21-2010, 08:54 PM
I think that the orc formations should be weakened [...]
Orc formations are dramatically different from the others.

Men have formations which are used to counter certain unit types.
Orcs have 'Stands' which temporarily greatly increase a unit's strengths and and increases its weaknesses (they are temporary because they drain stamina and turn off once stamina gets too low).
Elves have combat styles which give quite big changes to units, largely changing their strengths and giving no weaknesses. But these combat styles are hard to switch between.

So as you see, it's not something one can easily compare as you did, with strongest>middle>weakest.

Josh Warner
03-21-2010, 10:47 PM
So theoretically... The elves have the least adaptability to a situation unless they already know the enemies forces and are able to prepare for them...

Mid-battle they may be surprised by reinforcements to the enemy and are trapped in the wind formation whereas really they would be best in the rock formation...

The elves it seems will require far more planning than other races, their units are fewer and more expensive, its possible they could get overrun... Their battle plans must be made in good time before a battle, they will have a lower adaptability in the battle.


Also i have a question... How does the sneak ability work? Is it button click then unlimited invisibility (probably with speed reduction) until they strike a unit?
I think that it should be very short time, probably 10 seconds, and if they are close to the front of enemies they should be partially visible...
Oh and if the arrow trajectory system is as highly advanced as i suspect, is it possible that even sneaking enemies could be hit by stray arrows shot at other battallions?

Their lack of flexibility is balanced by two things - they're generally going to be the best at what they do. And keep in mind, only the elves have hide. No other race has the ability to scout as well as the elves, which means played properly they'll have more than enough time to switch formations. And we'll toy with some various things to give them some small changes, I've considered with the idea of making elven formations fully heal/recharge fatigue after completing a formation swap, but taking increased damage during it. So you could retreat weakened formations, and change their combat style then move them back in sort of thing.

The mechanics of hide are subject to change, but right now it drains fatigue while moving, and until you hit 0 fatigue remains active unless you attack.


Now, do melee units have a chance to miss as well? I apologize if this has already been asked, I don't always remember.

Thanks

Defense VS attack rating decides if an attack hits in melee. Attack rating determines accuracy of ranged (the spread)

nickson104
03-22-2010, 02:34 PM
The mechanics of hide are subject to change, but right now it drains fatigue while moving, and until you hit 0 fatigue remains active unless you attack.


Defense VS attack rating decides if an attack hits in melee. Attack rating determines accuracy of ranged (the spread)


The hide mechanics seem reasonable :) That means that stationary battalions could be VERY effective ambushes... Wow that will be so lethal...


Defense is basically evasion then? The units then get armour ratings?

Darathor
03-22-2010, 06:47 PM
The hide mechanics seem reasonable :) That means that stationary battalions could be VERY effective ambushes... Wow that will be so lethal...


Defense is basically evasion then? The units then get armour ratings?

Yes, units also have armor ratings. I'm quite sure it affects the damage it takes, I don't know what else it could affect, really.

Negthareas
03-22-2010, 07:43 PM
Okay - things looking good -no great! for battalions. Good job, Devs!

Josh Warner
03-22-2010, 08:26 PM
The hide mechanics seem reasonable :) That means that stationary battalions could be VERY effective ambushes... Wow that will be so lethal...


Defense is basically evasion then? The units then get armour ratings?

It's considered parry, or blocking for defense. And armor is a direct reduction of incoming damage from hits that land. Armor is separated into damage types as well.

otomotopia
03-22-2010, 08:29 PM
So I guess a better question is, does parrying/blocking negate all damage done to the unit?
And is the progression of damage like: chance to hit, then chance to block/parry, then midigation?

Negthareas
03-22-2010, 08:35 PM
interesting development of attack.damage. It seems unecessarily complicated to me, but it wil probably work for the better.

nickson104
03-23-2010, 10:16 AM
So defense would be a good statistic to improve for castle defense? Less likely to be hit by arrows from the attacking team, prolonging the tme to shoot them down

Liljagare
03-23-2010, 12:50 PM
This looks better and better and deeper and deeper all the darn time.. :P


Can't wait to play it.. :D

blackfang
03-23-2010, 02:27 PM
This looks better and better and deeper and deeper all the darn time.. :P


Can't wait to play it.. :D

This sentence is used by everyone on this forum... I wonder, if i copyrighted this how much could i earn from people using it by suing them?:rolleyes:

GPS51
03-23-2010, 02:58 PM
You mean after lawyer fees or after taxes ;) Yeah a definite watch phrase on the forums.

Josh Warner
03-23-2010, 04:38 PM
So defense would be a good statistic to improve for castle defense? Less likely to be hit by arrows from the attacking team, prolonging the tme to shoot them down

I suppose the way I wrote it wasn't clear - attack rating and defense is for melee determining if you hit. For ranged attack rating determines spread and defense does nothing. You cannot parry arrows :P

DarkMaster
03-23-2010, 11:40 PM
You cannot parry arrows :P
Yes you can. Theoretically, anyway:p . Jedi can do it:D

blackfang
03-24-2010, 12:38 AM
Yes you can. Theoretically, anyway:p . Jedi can do it:D

Hey now, don't go into absurdities. Ever seen star wars? It is clear that the jedi can only block laser shots. They can not block things from the ancient times... however they can block futuristic weapons, i mean i bet the jedi's would all die if you brought along an m16 and started shooting on one of those battlefields:D

welshie
03-24-2010, 01:56 AM
The lazers would be quicker traveling than the bullets and arrows so i dont see why not, but instead of knocking the lazers off target they would just disentergrate the bullet/arrows :)

otomotopia
03-24-2010, 05:58 AM
Hey now, don't go into absurdities. Ever seen star wars? It is clear that the jedi can only block laser shots. They can not block things from the ancient times... however they can block futuristic weapons, i mean i bet the jedi's would all die if you brought along an m16 and started shooting on one of those battlefields:D

For the record, their weapons are ancient. It's a long time ago, after all :D

But back to the matter at hand: My personal opinion is that there should be an evasion chance for arrows, and bit of blocking chance when the unit has a shield, not just evade and mitigate.

nickson104
03-24-2010, 07:29 AM
I suppose the way I wrote it wasn't clear - attack rating and defense is for melee determining if you hit. For ranged attack rating determines spread and defense does nothing. You cannot parry arrows :P

Lol :) of course :) thanks for clearing that up hehe :) silly me :) :p

This game does indeed look quite deep and no battle will be the same :)

Kire
03-24-2010, 08:00 AM
I have seen in movies ppl parrying arrows with stick or sword or even in one kung fu movie also bullets =). Beside some ppl also catch arrows, with hands that, are shot directly at them. So never say never i guess =P and its also fantasy ... everything is possible =).

Darathor
03-24-2010, 09:10 AM
I have seen in movies ppl parrying arrows with stick or sword or even in one kung fu movie also bullets =). Beside some ppl also catch arrows, with hands that, are shot directly at them. So never say never i guess =P and its also fantasy ... everything is possible =).

Those are movies, and are rather silly too, a well-shot arrow will go faster than sound so you can't hear it coming, and will also move too quickly for anyone to parry it. Same thing with bullets.

I've seen somebody catch an arrow too, but it was straight at him and wasn't going even one-third of the speed a real arrow would be coming at him if the archer was trying to kill him.

otomotopia
03-24-2010, 10:49 AM
It's significantly easier to 'catch' an arrow on a shield. IMO, elves should have a naturally higher chance of avoiding arrow damage, with orca having natural improvement on peircing, melée damage, and parry, and men having a better blocking chance (with a slight increase) in parry), to mimic most lore.

Henry Martin
03-24-2010, 10:52 AM
Those are movies, and are rather silly too, a well-shot arrow will go faster than sound so you can't hear it coming, and will also move too quickly for anyone to parry it. Same thing with bullets.

I've seen somebody catch an arrow too, but it was straight at him and wasn't going even one-third of the speed a real arrow would be coming at him if the archer was trying to kill him.

I would agree with everything you said except an arrow doesn't hit anywhere as fast as the speed of sound. I think the average speed of an arrow is around 100 mph(160 kph) give or take. The speed of sound is around 750+ mph.

Negthareas
03-24-2010, 02:40 PM
I thought that sounded a little screwy. Still - catch 'n' fire tests have been done. Thought these were probably done with low speed arrows, and low pound bows.

Liljagare
03-24-2010, 05:08 PM
Hey now, I've seen martial artists block arrows.. not on TV, but in real life.. :D

My Kendo teacher is able to nick arrows fired from a bone-bow coming at him straight on, and side fired..

Though, the freak is 82 and has practiced his entire life..

Sort of like those combat artists that seem to defy logic, hit before the punch is thrown, because they've trained the body to reflex before the signal hit's the brain.

otomotopia
03-24-2010, 07:40 PM
Hey now, I've seen martial artists block arrows.. not on TV, but in real life.. :D

My Kendo teacher is able to nick arrows fired from a bone-bow coming at him straight on, and side fired..

Though, the freak is 82 and has practiced his entire life..

Sort of like those combat artists that seem to defy logic, hit before the punch is thrown, because they've trained the body to reflex before the signal hit's the brain.

Sure, but we're not dealing with 82 year old humans, are we? :D We're dealing with presumably 20-30 year old fighting men, trained for 5 years, or Huge, brutish orcs (Or skinny goblins), or elves (Who are probably better at it then the other three).

Darathor
03-26-2010, 06:56 PM
I would agree with everything you said except an arrow doesn't hit anywhere as fast as the speed of sound. I think the average speed of an arrow is around 100 mph(160 kph) give or take. The speed of sound is around 750+ mph.

Well yeah, I was quite sure that that part was wrong, I just added it for effect really.:D

lumdultheunholy
05-31-2010, 09:57 PM
These formations should make battles a good chess match, I can't wait to see them in action.

Khan kreiger
06-15-2010, 03:01 PM
im likin the formation really gets you to strategize in battle

wills370
06-18-2010, 02:10 AM
How long does it take to drain the stanima? as do units return to a normal formation once this runs out etc.

FortyLuck
05-10-2011, 07:05 AM
it;s interesting, but how i can rotate the formaitions?
i can't find this option :(