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Swift sword
02-10-2010, 09:09 PM
After spending a couple months reading about DoF and learning more about the game and it's past history, I've decided to post my ideas and thoughts about the game itself and The Forgotten Races, amongst other things. I know some people won't like some of my suggestions, but I'm posting them anyways. Here goes!



City and Player Customization

As we all (well, most of us) know, Dawn of Fantasy has been labeled "A RTS with RPG elements" Yes, the main portion of the game is MMORTS mode and the strategy involved, but there's some RPG elements in the mix as well. Units can gain stat boosts upon level up and navigate obsticles that are usually dead ends in other RTS's. Exciting idea, eh? It's not a fully functional thought yet though-and I think it's worth expanding.

Why not take it further than climbing cliffs and swimming rivers? Why not take it further than leveling up and picking stat gains? If you read some of the Monthly Media, you'll note that the player has control of a hero during MMORTS mode. The lord of the city, as he is sometimes called. Why not allow players to customize this hero-just a little-right from the start. Let us choose his starter stats. Let us pick a couple of his abilities that he starts off with. Let us choose whether he wields sword or bow. Yeah, it'd be a fair bit of work to do. It probably would be too much to add even in a patch. But it'd be really cool to let us customize the heroes we'll be spending all our time with just a little.

And, adding onto that a little, I wish we could customize our cities a little more. I know walls are auto-built for two of the races and that those two also have build plots. I think walls may be auto-built for orcs too. In my mind, that could make for alot of similiar looking cities. If we could choose the shape of the city or something like that, I and others would be most grateful.

The Environment


A recent post in this forum, regarding "Border Towns" really piqued my interest. It's come to m attention that in mmorts mode, not many battles appear to be fought out in the woods or by the river. You don't go fight an enemy army out in narrow mountain passes-you sit in your city and wait for them to come to you- or the other way around. Yeah, hat's not a bad way of going around it-but there could be additions. We won't be fighting in the same surroundings, but let's face it-almost no one is going to ambush others when they could wait safely behing big bad battlements.

A good solution would be to put something-I'm not sure what-out in the territory for players to fight over. For example-fields that give a bonus to resource production, or a constant source of mercenaries that join up with you if you control some city/building or something. I've long since felt that there should be more than cities to fight over, but I wasn't sure what. That post gave me a couple ideas.

The Forgotten Races



Many of us have heard of the mysterious "Forgotten Races". These are other factions that Reverie had to cut due to lack of resources amongst other things. It's to early to think about an expansion but I'm sure sales will go well, so I'll go ahead and go over them now. I don't have time to go in-depth for each race (I'll elaborate tommorow) so I'll give a quick run-down:

Dragons: Dragons could, maybe, barely function as a full, playable race. I don't really like the idea of it, but there are unique features to dragons and lore of creatures like Drakes that would fit into that particular race. Buildings would probably be caves. I'd suggest against them in any possible expansions (yeah, I know, way to early to talk about that.
Dragons as a race: If I were Reverie I'd give them plenty of powerful unit choices to go with but some weaker units, like drakes, as well. They'd probably have the fewest units overall, but most dragons should be capable of flying. As for specialty units: Something like an ice dragon that works as a battering ram sounds good to me.

Minotaurs: Honestly, this is the weakest sounding of a possible race due to my knowledge of mythology. It simply can't click with me at all-you'd need to entirely re-think them to add em' in.
However, giving them a druidic-like twist would be pretty cool for spellcasters and unique, along with making their units similiar in strength to the elves.

Undead: Hmm. Possible. The undead would be tough to create. I'd guess they'd have the largest pop cap and hugest armies. There's plenty of possiblities with them, and they have tons of unique features and plenty of quest room. I like it.
They have tons of unit choices. I'd guess they'd have slow footspeed, and mostly weak infantry but very powerful spellcasters. Yeah, sounds weird, but that's how I'd make them. Also, they'd need to focus on having a vast variety of mobility, from skeletal elephants to swooping bone dragons.

Dwarves: Honestly, the most possible and likely race to be added into the game at a later time. They have tons of lore from mythology and books and the like, with plenty of room to grow. You can always get a different look at their personality and traits. Definitely a popular choice.
They should have little in the way of archers but very powerful siege equipment and countersiege, with the most powerful walls as well. Their infantry should be slow but powerful with little in the way of cavalry except maybe a giant goat-like unit.

I know there was another race, but I've forgotten it's name and simply remember it was some sort of water-based race. Very hard to implement successfully.

Magic


Magic is a slight mystery as of right now in DoF. We don't really know much about it, to my kowledge, except that mages are very powerful and players won't have exactly an army of mages backing them. So, I honestly don't know how spell-casting is planned to be implemented. But, here's how I'd like mages to be:

I'd like mages to not really be capable of casting all the spells untill they reach higher levels. For example, a fresh battalion can cast and deflect 3 basic spells right off and then can be taught (costs money) another at level 3, level 6, etc. At a special building (like a library) players can research new spells which can, in turn, be taught to mages if they get powerful enough.

I'd also like each race to have similiar and plenty of unique spells. For example, I think humans should have several ally-boosting spells whereas orcs should have spells that leave enemies fleeing in terror. Elves, on the other hand, should have a couple spells that helps their economic gains and can create territorial blockades across an enemies path (not within city limits, of course)
Besides these unique spells, they all get the typical firewall/whatever else they already have availiable for use, such as some group heals and the like.

The New World: The Underground

If I were to take a guess, I'd say the dwarves were a popular choice for a race. If I were to take another guess, I'd say most people would love to see them have an underground city/a city in a cave. So, I'd suggest that we create an entire network of linking underground tunnels from one city to another-with the other races in the process of trying to get a foothold in the dark and gloomy atmosphere of the dwarves *main* home. (Players can't create cities here for obvious balance reasons, but there would be numerous major NPC cities here. We could even throw the dragons in as well-and many players appear to love the idea of dragon races.

As for resources-the dwarven mages create artificial sunlight and hunt the strange creatures of the area. Also, wood lies in the form of trees that grow near openings to the surface, and gold is abundant. There could be plenty of PvE here in the form of a new main questline and to take the NPC cities on. There could be massive dwarven and dragon cities and a single of the other races but quite large as well- their only foothold in the new realm. Rewards could range from new mercenary units to plenty of resources to go around. It has potential to add a ton of new content to the game after release. What do you guys think?

Guilds and Alliances: Multi-player Wars and Cities
Recently, a post came up on the forums regarding guilds and multi-owned cities. I decided to work upon the idea a little and came up with a general idea of how a multi-owned city could work. The original level one city is purchased by a joint-effort from a guild with at least 10 players in it. It's very expensive (AKA only higher leveled guilds can afford to purchase it)

Basically, the city would begin larger than normal cities and be capable of much greater sizes. In fact, they can get so large they can take up two seperate instance to get everything in. Basically, it's owned by a single guild. The players in this guild agree from the start that they must pay a portion of their resources every week to keep the city maintained-a sort of "tax", if you will. This off-sets the fact that the city is constantly maintaining two armies, from which individual battalions can be purchased for discounts from players within the guild. The players within the guild also get minor discounts when purchasing resources and a minor increase in cash received when selling goods/resources. There are also various mercenary units easily purchasable from higher level cities.

Since you obviously can't do quests for the city to level up, it levels up through size increase alone, as does the max garrison of troops within. A full army defends eah instance of the city with an AI that depends on the size of the city. It grows when players send resources in, auto-creating buildings and troops. It also uses the "tax" money to purchase goodies. If the city is attacked by another player or guild, up to 2 armies can come to defend each portion/instance of the city (assuming the game can handle that much? Obviously subject to change)

Once both ends of the city have fallen, a player can advance his troops to the final area. A little smaller than the other portions of the city, it houses the keep and most of the starting military buildings. A small garrison is kept here.
At this point, if other guild members wish to defend the city they must come from the outside and fight from outside the keep through the narrow streets crowded with enemies.

I can't think of many other features other than possibly allowing the guild to keep a certain number of their own troops garrisoned permanently to defend the city, scratching any last hopes of one player taking the city down. It'd have to be a small number so that these types of battles don't lag much. The city ould obviously be AI controlled. All the bonuses I mentioned should be very slight and not affect normal PvP (two player battles) in any way at all (I'm not a huge fan of guilds, although they're fun to be a part of. I just don't want to be forced to join them or lose all my battles;) )

I'm afraid the battles might get too unit-filled or that the guild cities might be a balance tipper, although I don't think they are. Post your thoughts. :)
Credits to otomotopia (http://www.reverieworld.com/forums/member.php?u=547) for the original idea of guild cities, which triggered this idea. Nice thread!

welshie
02-11-2010, 10:25 AM
Some good points put forwards!

City and Player customization -
My views would be similar about the Player one, i would like to get hold of my hero and design it like in a Rpg mode and when he levels i would like to choose what he wears and see him prosper as a Mini me, per say. Also to evlove on this idea could we not try and represent our lands with not only our cities but our lords, showing them off and putting them in an avatar when someone clicks to see our city in a sumary, 'Lord Tomas is the Lord of these lands' -> show picture that sort of thing.

As for cities, yeh customization would be cool but i find the fact that you use the walls for primarly units to fire from ultimatly out rules this, as in other games walls are just stones to slow you down. But reverie have made it so you can add your own personal flare, lets just say your human firstly you have to pick you lands. Now you have the templates of the regional type cities I.e. Next to the see, on hills, near mountians ... ect. Then you choose what type of walls u want/where u want towers to be build. Then you have the options of player based anti-seige wepons to place on them. So in overview i doubt many cities will look identical unless u plan on attacking people in the same regions and race.

Enviroment.
Being the brain behind the idea of border towns and things, im rather flattered. But i have to say what things you have come up with are good, putting lands to fight over for stratigal improtance would there for take the pressure of people having so many forces in your city and focus the game more on these lands to help your city prosper!

I remember posting I think last year about if u can intercept an army on its way to your city and i dont think i got a definitive answer. But i would like to see what u have said border towns to help you focus your enimies into choke points making it harder for them to attack.

Forgotten races
I dont really like the idea of some of the races, i hate playing undead and would rather have them in some sort of random event in your lands, ie a necromancer kills a few guys and a plague spreads and you must kill your citizens to stop it much like what Arthas had to do in Warcraft but was then critized for doing so. Them and minators i would not like to see in the game as a playable race but this isnt my decision.

As for the dragons and dwarfs i would like to see them in a later expansion. I do not see why you would think dragons would not make a decent race to play, dragons in fantasy are normaly very intelligent and normaly very comanding. You have to remember dragons are not just big flying beasts in fantasy you have the normal Half-Dragons which are like the grunts of the dragon world and so on. Personaly i love the idea of Dragons and think they would make the game very intresting, as for the dwarfs i feel that this race would bring in a whole new way of seige and would love to experience that! But the lands should be almost dominated by mining and few of other resources.

But im glad u expressed your views!

Swift sword
02-11-2010, 03:43 PM
I see your point, especially on the border towns thing. I do think there's going to be enough rewards for regular city sieges to be rampant even with something like this, though. Dragons, on the other hand...meh. I need to see a fully workable concept with creativty before anyone can sell them to me :p .
Indeed, dwarves should focus on having really good siege and pretty good defense in my opinion-a sort of balance. I see them being more defensive with little cavalry and slow movement speed, personally, but that's my take on their race as a whole. Probably biased from LotR.

Darathor
02-11-2010, 05:33 PM
On the rpg elements, your soldiers can swim through rivers, it just takes stamina to do it.

I would like it if you could get a few items and armor for you hero that would give stats, the odd ability, and a change in the model to reflect you hero wearing it.

For border towns, I would like an area where you can create another castle, for a lot of resources or some other prerequisite that makes it hard to get one, that would be capturable by other players. There could even be possibilities for guild warfare in this area by having guild cities that are cheaper than player cities, but aren't under any one person's control. There would be a "lord" appointed for the city, but other members could be able to trade there and recuperate with their armies there.

Another way to implement the idea is with various capturable objectives throughout the world.

Negthareas
02-11-2010, 08:58 PM
I have to go to bed, but I really like this thread and will post on it tomorrow.:D

Swift sword
02-11-2010, 09:12 PM
Glad you like it thus far. I'm planning on adding in sections, such as bout magic and expanding my thoughts on the Forgotten Races. I'll also post anything else I think up here. Hope you can tell me what you think tommorow.

Negthareas
02-12-2010, 08:06 AM
I just read through - very good ideas! I think the Boarderlands idea can kind of be crossed with the guild ideas - some interesting ones also popped up in the guild proposal thread.

Dragon race - I have serious doubts as to the variation of units in order to make the race playable. Dragons, Big ones, little ones. Drakes... You need a lot more than that. Also, how would cities work? There are so many things that would need to be solved in order for them to be a race that it seems, to me, impractical to pursue it.

Minotaurs - similar to Dragons in the non-development. But, more practal and easier to develop than dragons. I like the druidic idea. Maybe make their race based on minotaurs as workers, basic infantry, etc., but have their major units be very magical - wizards, sea monsters, "dinosaurs" -kindof- etc. Even maybe incorporate elements from the Dragan civilization if it does not work out. Thus you could have a lot of minotaur units [fast, strong, big damage, but expensive] but only a few big ones.

Kire
02-12-2010, 08:31 AM
Nice post =),
100% agree with your city and customization stuff, beside there would be nice to have different skins for units so you could also choose that =P (whole packet, not choosing for individual type of unit) - so that at human pvp the difference is not only colour =P.
And there should be something to bring players to open battles. Maybe there would be instanced battlegrounds (so comp chooses the right opponent for you and you than fight there (similar to WoW battlegrounds)). They said borderlands as were suggested were not much possible. Maybe if battleground would be made on border (like warhammer have those faction specific battlefields). And i heard there would be also raiding of merchants on their way, but how would this happen if we wont even see other ppl?
I dont have anything against to forgotten races, but would be quite sad if dragons wouldnt be playable faction in one of the expansions =).

zach12wqasxz
02-12-2010, 08:44 AM
ya i also agree with your open battle scenarios. like instead of ALWAYS attacking another city land battles would be absolutly awesome like if your fighting over a trade route. or some farmland, or even like a valley with lots of stone resources, for the mmo part to be fully complete reverie would do good to add this into the game

otomotopia
02-12-2010, 11:19 AM
Walls absolutely need a much bigger degree of customization-specifically in direction and placement. I would absolutely LOVE to invent a design that no one else has, that absolutely rises above all else in terms of strategic placement. I would LOVE to completely own someone who didn't set up their walls well.

At that, having the option to use a preset or your own design would be AMAZING. I know you can place attachments to your walls, but I want to MAKE my own design... If that was a feature, it would increase my love of the game even further.

blackfang
02-12-2010, 12:19 PM
So would i. I am sure i will restart till i get a good position:D

Josh Warner
02-12-2010, 03:13 PM
I just read through - very good ideas! I think the Boarderlands idea can kind of be crossed with the guild ideas - some interesting ones also popped up in the guild proposal thread.

Dragon race - I have serious doubts as to the variation of units in order to make the race playable. Dragons, Big ones, little ones. Drakes... You need a lot more than that. Also, how would cities work? There are so many things that would need to be solved in order for them to be a race that it seems, to me, impractical to pursue it.

Minotaurs - similar to Dragons in the non-development. But, more practal and easier to develop than dragons. I like the druidic idea. Maybe make their race based on minotaurs as workers, basic infantry, etc., but have their major units be very magical - wizards, sea monsters, "dinosaurs" -kindof- etc. Even maybe incorporate elements from the Dragan civilization if it does not work out. Thus you could have a lot of minotaur units [fast, strong, big damage, but expensive] but only a few big ones.


Dragons not having enough unit types? Heh. This one is not familiar with D&D methinks.


Without counting the stages of dragon growth there are several dozen types of dragons with various powers, there's no reason we couldn't do that. For different roles you could have different types of dragons or dragonkin. Their 'cheap' units would be dragonkin of varying elements. Honestly, most of these would just require a unique skin and maybe a slightly different scale + unique abilities. If anything the dragons would be the EASIEST and most unique race as they'd have potentially hundreds of different units. And same with the actual dragons too not just dragonkin, again without counting growth you have one for each type of dragon, and instead of a normal leveling system we could have the growth be their own leveling system, for every battle they participate in, or based on number of kills they then get older and as dragons get older they get larger and stronger. Trust me - if we get the funding and time dragons will not be difficult to implement.


Minotaurs are a little harder if anything, but we could easily do something with them. One idea would be a caste system where they're bred into it developed into each type of warfare, there would be those trained solely in magic, archery, mounted combat, 2-3 types of foot soldiers with one spear, one defensive and one offensive, or instead of offensive/defensive a regular grunt and then simply an elite version. Or even more interesting, say they have selective mutation and have it work much the same as the caste, but instead of training for it, they're literally born with it. The last one might be a little too weird - but you get the idea. With a bit of imagination you can make just about anything work.

It sounds like you wanted the Minotaurs to be more of an amalgamation of races than minotaurs which is also another possibility, a sort of collective.



@Otomotopia:

Have you played the various Stronghold games online? One of two things happens depending on which stronghold you play. Either walls are completely worthless, or they're brokenly overpowered. There is simply no way to balance letting everyone design their own walls. We hope to have plenty of different ones to let you choose from, and even that will lead to some builds being stronger than others. It just has to be this way for balance unless you want walls to go the way of AoE2 where sure you can build a nice looking city but it isn't worth a tenth of the money you sunk into it. And with siege warfare being one of the biggest and best things about the game, reducing walls to little more than a hurdle low enough you can step over wouldn't be good.

The various customizable wall defenses are unique enough to make cities feel like your own as well, imo. With so many options and three distinct terrain's per race to choose from.

Swift sword
02-12-2010, 05:23 PM
Thanks for the in-depth replies Josh and everyone else, I really appreciate your interest. I just added my thoughts about magic seeing as it's sort of a mystery subject right now.

Negthareas
02-12-2010, 05:45 PM
I guess I was a little, uh, presumptuous about the the Dragon Race unit wise. But, how would cities work? Dragons have never been, forgive the pun, a civilized civilization. They don't really have technologies or structures.

Josh Warner
02-12-2010, 06:13 PM
I guess I was a little, uh, presumptuous about the the Dragon Race unit wise. But, how would cities work? Dragons have never been, forgive the pun, a civilized civilization. They don't really have technologies or structures.

Dragons themselves wouldn't be numerous I'd think, now none of this is actual game design keep in mind, just my personal thoughts on it - Dragonkin would create the bulk of the dragon race, and they would have a city. Thinking instead of regular production buildings, you'd have caves that would be upgraded to create various dragons/dragonkin, and the dragonkin would build walls and more traditional defenses around these, perhaps have the Dragon cities built into the sides of mountains. Or you could have the dragonkin create a more traditional city and have very tall buildings towards the center, spires designed to house dragons at their peaks. Though I really like the idea of all the dragon cities being built into the sides of mountains. Edit: Take a look at the 13th fantasy friday, instead of the gold mining operation/scaffolding etc, imagine a couple caves built into that cliff face where dragons would be spawned.

Technology ranges from improved equipment, to more effective training regiments. And actually, depending on the universe - dragons did wear armor. Their weaponry while natural could still be improved via research. And of course the dragonkin would use equipment. Something along the lines of increased training designed to make their breath attacks more powerful, or simply a tech that changes the dragon's diet to something more expensive that makes the breath attack stronger. Who knows - but it's definitely doable. I wrote this post in 5 minutes, I could draw up a design document for the entire race including stronghold designs, research and units in a week probably, 2-3 weeks at most.

Thanks for the in-depth replies Josh and everyone else, I really appreciate your interest. I just added my thoughts about magic seeing as it's sort of a mystery subject right now.

Hey, I enjoy discussing the game and potential ideas as much as anyone, if anything more considering I might actually get to work on implementing these ideas - but I have to be careful with what I reveal so this limits what I can talk about you see. I don't want to give away potential fantasy friday stuff now do I ;) And I don't want to give people the wrong idea about what we're considering, or we can/can't do. Everything here is just my own thoughts.

DarkMaster
02-12-2010, 06:38 PM
Of course, I have to support Dwarves as a future race. They're just so cool:) . I picture them as master engineers, with various wickedly crafted contraptions (maybe a semi-automatic ballista?) and very strongly built cities. It would be really awesome if they had underground cities, but this might be a bit hard to pull off and still have balance. Maybe they could lack counter-siege stuff? Dwarves FTW all the same:o

Negthareas
02-12-2010, 06:41 PM
Okay, I guess a dragon civilization is more feasible than I thought possible, I will just have to stretch my imagination a bit. :rolleyes: It would be an adjustment to play as the Dragon race though. But I guess that is one great thing about this game - the civilizations will each be significantly differnet from eachother that players will have to use different styles of gameplay for differnet civilizations.

Josh Warner
02-12-2010, 06:44 PM
Okay, I guess a dragon civilization is more feasible than I thought possible, I will just have to stretch my imagination a bit. :rolleyes: It would be an adjustment to play as the Dragon race though. But I guess that is one great thing about this game - the civilizations will each be significantly differnet from eachother that players will have to use different styles of gameplay for differnet civilizations.

Dragonkin are humanoid btw if that wasn't clear. The race would mostly be the dragonkin, and dragons would be like the ogres of orcs, rare and singular. Though probably more of them than orcs have ogres, it's hard to say and would likely change a lot over the course of development.

GPS51
02-12-2010, 06:45 PM
Sounds highly entertaining as well as graphicly challenging. Would the dragen mercs currently in the game make it in as stronger units of the same?

sneaky_squirrel
02-12-2010, 08:44 PM
Not a big fan of dragonkin myself (Anything the close to human shape is just an ugly human to me).

I'd prefer dragons to keep their lizard shapes, I might post some examples of what I mean by that later, but for now I must go...do homework.

Josh Warner
02-12-2010, 09:08 PM
Not a big fan of dragonkin myself (Anything the close to human shape is just an ugly human to me).

I'd prefer dragons to keep their lizard shapes, I might post some examples of what I mean by that later, but for now I must go...do homework.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanoid_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29

That's what I mean by humanoid.

Lizardfolk fall under that as do many, many other races that appear nothing like humans.

two arms, two legs, one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and head is generally 'humanoid' though extra arms/legs yet retaining the same shape is still considered humanoid. Certain aquatic races are considered humanoid even when they have no legs.

ash12181987
02-12-2010, 10:09 PM
1.) Player Customization: Yes, sounds good to an extent, but only as much as is needed to help differentiate from someone over the hill.

The hero customization I agree with. The city customization argument has been leveled and lost multiple times. As Josh said though: we're getting customizable defenses, so that's good enough (Well not really, but as I lost this argument months ago).

2.) Environment: No comment. Already hashed out in Border Towns thread.

3.) Forgotten Races:
a.) Dragons: Abso-fing-lutely, we Should have dragons. Their an awesome innovation to the standard Men-Elf-Slightly bad elf-orc-Dwarf SFS [Standard Fantasy Setting] Tolkein inspired game. Mind you despite Josh's optimism I think they would be harder to balance. One thing that came to mind was that Dragons aren't typically... humble. I mean if your a giant flying lizard thing the last thing you need is humility. OR, if your the Son of a giant flying lizard thing, and a human... again, no need for humility, because your 8ft tall and built like robocop. My point being, how do they have a labor class who does stuff like, build structures, mine gold, and scoop up gong (Or is that Stronghold 2). One slightly... a-moral idea that I had was Slavery. I know that sounds terrible, but who says Dragons have to be all good? Swoop down and swipe up a buncha' villagers or creeps that are lying around and instead of killing them, they work for the dragon... clan? Flock? Gaggle? Uh... Group, that is present in that area. Would be an intresting mechanic to add to gameplay.

b.) Minotaurs: Mythology of Minotaurs: They reside in Labyrinths and eat people. Their horny (Two horns, like a bull... ;) Yeah, bad joke, but I went there), they are furry, they are... strong? Their not very deep. I wouldn't say they would go far as a race. Now if you go Wow route, their Native American Indians. So, are we going Mississippian Indians, who are highly factionalized horticulturists (In general, before someone starts picking at me historically). Northwestern Indians, Extremely highly organized hunter Gatherers. Or Southwestern Indians, Starving... but also at times horticulturists. OR mesoamericans, preferabley aztecs: They eat people, their horny, they build labyrinths, appear in Mel Gibson Movies disguised as Mayans. Personally I don't like the idea of Minotaurs from WoW, and to go more Greek in origin... their rather unlikely to form anything civilized. I'd say they should be creeps, but nothing more. I understand innovation and heck if someone can come of with something that sound fun, original, and viable I'll eat my words.

c.) Undead: Would Be a Blast. There are multiple ways to do this. Give a different resource: Bodies, and make them do soldiers only if they have enough dead guys. If you do that, then a focus on spellcasters would be good, but you may only start out with a few. Then, sack a village and convert it's populace. Or find graveyards. If you did this, then finding magical power could be more of a sapping thing: Find another civilization, mark one of their casters, convert him to the darkside. I mean, they could really be played like the scourge of the gods that they usually are portrayed as. Further, for special units, they just need Kill another races special and raise him. Early on you can only get Skeletons which are **** easy to kill, but fast. The more you advance though, you can raise more meaty undead like Zombies, deadites, and Flesh golems (Or something). And if you get Really good, you can become, or make Lichs, demi-lichs, etc. thus artificially boosting your magic power. I mean the classic issue with undead armies is: For everyone They kill, they boost their own power. Building wise it would be sparce, maybe a small tower and a couple structures, but as time goes on and you (The caster) Grow in strength you could get more stuff. Sorry, I love the idea of undead plagues in an RTS.

d.) ...is for Dwarves. No brain-er here, we need the bearded drunken Scotsmen. Nothing more that needs to be said here.

4.) Magic: Sounds good. I mean really I don't think we'll need alot of Balance for mages, because despite their power... you'll have just a few, where as your enemy will have umpteen groups of 20 swordsmen, archers, special stuff, and cavalry riding down on the 5 mages (Just guessing)... no amount of uber spelling can kill a whole army.

otomotopia
02-12-2010, 10:25 PM
@Otomotopia:

Have you played the various Stronghold games online? One of two things happens depending on which stronghold you play. Either walls are completely worthless, or they're brokenly overpowered. There is simply no way to balance letting everyone design their own walls. We hope to have plenty of different ones to let you choose from, and even that will lead to some builds being stronger than others. It just has to be this way for balance unless you want walls to go the way of AoE2 where sure you can build a nice looking city but it isn't worth a tenth of the money you sunk into it. And with siege warfare being one of the biggest and best things about the game, reducing walls to little more than a hurdle low enough you can step over wouldn't be good.

The various customizable wall defenses are unique enough to make cities feel like your own as well, imo. With so many options and three distinct terrain's per race to choose from.

Hehe, why, yes, I have played the game Stronghold online. In fact, i'm currently a part of the internal testing of the current Stronghold MMO (:D). This is why I also suggested a fix for those who are 'underpowered'-having templates like you just described, along with a 'freebuild' option. The best of the user-created setups can even be added to these 'templates' to update the competition. If you find your setup is 'underpowered,' you always can gather up to the point where you can build a template city.

And, if boundaries and length limits are put in place to contain the defender from over-extending his defences and rules are put in place to make the attacker still able to reach the keep with minimal building obstruction (aka 'house walls'), suddently it becomes much more balanced for the attacker.

Josh Warner
02-12-2010, 10:47 PM
Hehe, why, yes, I have played the game Stronghold online. In fact, i'm currently a part of the internal testing of the current Stronghold MMO (:D). This is why I also suggested a fix for those who are 'underpowered'-having templates like you just described, along with a 'freebuild' option. The best of the user-created setups can even be added to these 'templates' to update the competition. If you find your setup is 'underpowered,' you always can gather up to the point where you can build a template city.

And, if boundaries and length limits are put in place to contain the defender from over-extending his defences and rules are put in place to make the attacker still able to reach the keep with minimal building obstruction (aka 'house walls'), suddently it becomes much more balanced for the attacker.

Otomotopia, I understand what you're saying and I've even considered that idea myself but it's pointless. Every city will become a clone of the best, and in many cases the best will rarely if ever actually resemble a city. The best setups will be used by everyone, and we as devs will have to balance around those absurdly strong defenses or they'll be impenetrable which leads to the few people who haven't yet adopted the 'best' to become frustrated and quit, or frustrated and use the 'best'.

It creates a huge balance issue, again we absolutely have to balance around the best defense to make the game playable, which means bad becomes worthless and leads to the exact same thing most of you are worried about, every city being the same. You will almost assuredly see more variety with our system than the one you propose.

Swift sword
02-12-2010, 10:48 PM
@Ash:
I still dunno about dragons. I mean, ok, dragonkin adds a possibility and plenty of room for magic to go. However, if you're going to make dragons a race dragons should be the main part of it. Otherwise, you may as well name it Dragonkin and be done with it. Kind of cheap to name it dragons and then make 3/4th's of the units only half-dragon.

I guess the labor might be a little difficult, but it's not that that I see as being a problem. It'd be harder to create structures and the like that make sense in my opinion. If the race is going to be called dragons they obviously rule themselves, which means they have their own architecture. So-what's dragon-made building look like? A curious question-and an even more interesting answer, no doubt.

I couldn't agree with you more over minotaurs. I didn't get the WoW reference until I remembered some quests from I think Darkshore, but that's not important. What is important is that it completely lost the Minotaur feeling, sowe can't really go that route. I'm guessing it'd actually be possible to create something plausible with the minotaur name- minotaurs are awesome units (giant axes for the win ;) ) but you'd basically be recreating the races technology traits to do so.
I mean, they obviously wouldn't have archers besides throwing axeman. I don't remember anything to suggest they were technologically advanced. They could have some good infantry and I sorta like the shaman idea, but I still think there isn't enough existing lore behind them to create a race off them with that name.

Undead: In my opinion, they are the most open-ended of the races. Think how many concepts you could combine to create a workable race-you could use one or two things from nearly hundreds of games to create a completely unique race with hundreds of possible units, plenty of magic possibility, skeletal horses, wyverns, the walking corpses of your dead enemies-I actually think WoW did a good job pulling them off.

There's also plenty of concept for the dwarves. I particularly liked how Dragon Age portrayed them as a race with very big political issues- Id never seen them portrayed like that before. I absolutely loved it, to be honest, and would like some similar lore for their questline if they ever come to pass. As for balance- give them a strong defenseive focus in my opinion, with excellent siege weaponry but limited in options. Also, it's a basic fact they hate anything to do with riding, so they're only cavalry could be some sorts of wild animals and specialist mercenaries.

You'd be surprised at how over-powered 5 mages can be. Decent line of sight+ some sort of fireball spell with good AoE plus firewall (which I know exists) and high HP, and they could wreck total havoc on any army. It won't end up like that, but mages could end up a little to powerful for their own good.

blackfang
02-13-2010, 06:42 AM
the dragon factionneed Unwilling labor or mindless slaves that can do their dirty work it can still be dragon faction since they control it. Maybe you can use drakes that have not gotten their wings yet as a unit? That could be awesome.:D

otomotopia
02-13-2010, 08:29 AM
Otomotopia, I understand what you're saying and I've even considered that idea myself but it's pointless. Every city will become a clone of the best, and in many cases the best will rarely if ever actually resemble a city. The best setups will be used by everyone, and we as devs will have to balance around those absurdly strong defenses or they'll be impenetrable which leads to the few people who haven't yet adopted the 'best' to become frustrated and quit, or frustrated and use the 'best'.

It creates a huge balance issue, again we absolutely have to balance around the best defense to make the game playable, which means bad becomes worthless and leads to the exact same thing most of you are worried about, every city being the same. You will almost assuredly see more variety with our system than the one you propose.

So I guess its a no? :)

welshie
02-13-2010, 10:07 AM
the dragon factionneed Unwilling labor or mindless slaves that can do their dirty work it can still be dragon faction since they control it. Maybe you can use drakes that have not gotten their wings yet as a unit? That could be awesome.:D

Has already been said there the main grunts will be half-dragons bascily if you played WoW the dragons they have in there that have 2 legs. if you havent just think of a human/dragon mix then take the wings away.

blackfang
02-13-2010, 10:15 AM
I was thinking this style maybe
http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/sword21/Aq-Monster-Vorg.png
They look awesome
As for the drake i would guess this kinda represent it, walk on four legs without the wings. They are like lions that breathe fire and eat everything meaty they can get their hold off.
http://www.maps4heroes.com/heroes5/pictures/fortress/units/Fire_Dragon.jpg

Do you get the picture?

Andy Joslin
02-13-2010, 10:33 AM
City and Player Customization - we have been considering adding more hero customization. Heroes will definitely have some in-depth abilities and a bit of customization in-game.

The Environment - Whoever gave the impression that you will be fighting always in cities was wrong:)
You can do fighting with enemies in the open areas of regions as much as you want. The rewards and methods for fighting in the field are different, too. More on this later once we want to reveal it.

The Forgotten Races - Dwarves and Dragons will make it into the game, but not as a full race until a possible expansion. Minotaurs may, as well.
You can visit dwarven or dragon areas to purchase mercenaries for your army from them. You can play many quests or even campaigns which take place in dragon or dwarven regions. Many other things can be done in these regions, too.

Magic - You have the gist of how magic works.
More information on magic will come later once we want to reveal it. :)

welshie
02-13-2010, 10:38 AM
Kinda like the first one

Swift sword
02-13-2010, 10:40 AM
Really? Fighting in the field gets different rewards then assaulting a player's cities? Wow...didn't see that one coming. Sorry for sugesting something that's sorta implemented, then ;)

Glad to see that's how magic sorta works. I figured you guys would think up a reasonable system, but like I said, it's a mystery subject right now. Very exciting with the microing that we have to do. But still a mystery.

I knew about the mercenaries, although I thought it only applied to dragons/dwarves. I didn't realize we'd get some bulls in there too :)
Also, will we ever visit some sorts of dwarven civilizations/dragon cities, or is there not enough units/buildings to create one right now? I realize you want to keep some stuff secret, but it would be awesome to complete a quest chain for very large monsters.

Andy Joslin
02-13-2010, 10:43 AM
I'll have to give you a definite maybe about those dwarven / dragon cities.:)

As to magic.. Here's a bit more about it: link (http://reverieworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91).

Puppeteer
02-13-2010, 12:11 PM
Don't release too much about the magic, it's a truly great marketing ploy!

Swift sword
02-13-2010, 12:50 PM
Ah, thanks for the link. Dunno how I missed it.

Swift sword
02-19-2010, 09:07 PM
Alright, edited in a section regarding dwarves and dragons (the underground) and guild cities/battles. Hope you like what I've posted, and if not, tell me your thoughts. (for that matter, tell me if you like it! Took a fair bit of time to post :p )

Negthareas
02-20-2010, 11:49 AM
Looks good. The link was good for refreshing my mind on magic.

I think there should be a possible inclusion of the Undead/Vampires in a future expansion. We are hashing out the ideas in "Please no undead" suggestion thread.

I think minitours would be awesome as mercenaries - but just that. It would be very hard to create a civilization based off of them [without becoming an outlet for any other fantasy races - centaurs, necromancers, griffins]. Wait - would that work?

On second thought I don't think so - smacks too much of NARNIA.

otomotopia
02-26-2010, 10:23 PM
I'm loving those additions you made to my guild city idea.

Swift sword
02-27-2010, 12:57 PM
That reminds me to credit you for the original. Sorry 'bout that, oto :) .

Daermoth
04-10-2010, 05:16 AM
I know this is a little bit of a gravedig..and I sort of just registered on these forums, but anyway, I was wondering did anyone think about the dragons as something similar to the Draconians from Age of Wonders 2. They were...well pretty well thought out there, of course they could look a lot better here and all, but still, it's a nice template to base it on. As for magic, I always loved the fact that mages were these awe inspiring people that commanded various destructive forces, be it a natural or elemental force. I believed that they should be overpowered..but to an extent, a mage should be able to take out a lot of units, or at least protect a lot of his own, but it would take its toll on the mage himself, severely hampering his abilities further until he would get a chance to recover...anyhow, those are some of my views for my first post, hopefully I'll get to be more active in this community now:P Cheers everyone.

Puppeteer
04-10-2010, 10:22 AM
Oh God, I absolutely hated Age of Wonders 2. Bleurgh.

Daermoth
04-10-2010, 10:35 AM
Yet that does not constitute the fact that it is a bad game, nor that its Draconian race wouldn't be a good place to start bouncing off ideas for the Dragon race?:P

Yami-Yagari
04-11-2010, 06:45 AM
City and Player Customization - we have been considering adding more hero customization. Heroes will definitely have some in-depth abilities and a bit of customization in-game.

The Environment - Whoever gave the impression that you will be fighting always in cities was wrong:)
You can do fighting with enemies in the open areas of regions as much as you want. The rewards and methods for fighting in the field are different, too. More on this later once we want to reveal it.

The Forgotten Races - Dwarves and Dragons will make it into the game, but not as a full race until a possible expansion. Minotaurs may, as well.
You can visit dwarven or dragon areas to purchase mercenaries for your army from them. You can play many quests or even campaigns which take place in dragon or dwarven regions. Many other things can be done in these regions, too.

Magic - You have the gist of how magic works.
More information on magic will come later once we want to reveal it. :)

Putting Dwarves in later expansions, cant wait.
gonna be tough though, considering dwarves build settlements inside mountains. Customization and sieging gonna be pain:(

blackfang
04-11-2010, 09:25 AM
Putting Dwarves in later expansions, cant wait.
gonna be tough though, considering dwarves build settlements inside mountains. Customization and sieging gonna be pain:(

didn't you know, this is fantasy... For all we know the dwarfs got castles in trees... They can change EVERYTHING in no time:D

Henry Martin
04-11-2010, 10:03 AM
Yeah I hope dwarves are the next playable race(my favorite race). I would actually like to see how the devs work out having the dwarven cities underground and how the defences would work(nice gameplay addition).

Instead of bring them above ground(for an easy gameplay fix). This would add some new strategy.

blackfang
04-11-2010, 01:22 PM
Yeah I hope dwarves are the next playable race(my favorite race). I would actually like to see how the devs work out having the dwarven cities underground and how the defences would work(nice gameplay addition).

Instead of bring them above ground(for an easy gameplay fix). This would add some new strategy.

how about adding a city on the surface but with some tunnels underground (like a second castle)

Yami-Yagari
04-12-2010, 02:00 AM
how about adding a city on the surface but with some tunnels underground (like a second castle)

would make it a lot easier yes. but is your gonna add dwarves in later expansions, they at least have to try and make it special. Dwarves either live in mountains of underground, hardly on the surface. more a less the fundamental rule with dwarves.

blackfang
04-12-2010, 02:05 PM
would make it a lot easier yes. but is your gonna add dwarves in later expansions, they at least have to try and make it special. Dwarves either live in mountains of underground, hardly on the surface. more a less the fundamental rule with dwarves.

And you know what fantasy is? It is not copying from everyone else so the same things happens over and over again, tough they do occasionally. However don't you ever wonder how orcs get the name trolls, grog, grawl osv... If everyone called them orcs they would just be copying so they get fancy names for them and new cool looking nazgul like guys. However i have seen a few movies in my time and quite a lot about dwarfs but there have been once or twice that the dwarfs lived over ground, so just because it was not like that in lord of the rings doesn't mean that it is like that here too;)

So basically thats the same as in real life, a person evolves from a little child to a monster, just because there are normal children everywhere doesn't mean that everyone is just as normal as the next one... It is the basics of repeats, just because they happen doesn't mean they are the only way of life. I mean i have even seen fantasy movies where orcs are smart and elves grow wings, fairies are human sized and trolls looks like giant mountains. I have seen movies where goblins are evil little creatures devoted to following orders, i have also seen movies where the goblins where just as nice as the unicorn down the street. (before it went berserk and killed everyone off except for the main character that got away) I have also seen movies where undead are eating people alive, and i have seen movies where the undead are like happy playmates to the people that is alive (even sexually:eek: that film is very disturbing believe me) So how many more examples do i have to use before you get it, EVERYTHING IS NOT THE SAME JUST BECAUSE LOTR SAID SO! The end thank you from me:D

P.S I was supposed to sleep now in the middle of the night so currently i am a bit mad, sorry:o Somethings may seem like i am a bit angry at but don't let it bother you:p

Alex Walz
04-12-2010, 04:15 PM
If/when we do include dwarves, we will be sure to do something unique with them. ;)

And btw, orc isn't a Tolkien term... it's a product of northern Italy folklore. And has since been used by many different cultures to refer to "wild men." I've never read LOTR, but I know that our writers have put a lot of time into each race so the end result with all of their culture and history, is quite different than many other representations.

Negthareas
04-12-2010, 04:21 PM
Here's to the devs!

blackfang
04-12-2010, 11:51 PM
If/when we do include dwarves, we will be sure to do something unique with them. ;)

And btw, orc isn't a Tolkien term... it's a product of northern Italy folklore. And has since been used by many different cultures to refer to "wild men." I've never read LOTR, but I know that our writers have put a lot of time into each race so the end result with all of their culture and history, is quite different than many other representations.

Yay no more cave dwelling mastersmiths that can't make a hold against goblins:D This time maybe they might be able to do something:eek:

Negthareas
04-13-2010, 12:58 PM
I plan on making orcs more civilized - aka, dirty because they don't care about being clean because they don't get diseases, not because they like it that way. They just don't care.

blackfang
04-14-2010, 01:06 PM
how about making the orcs live like the elves and the elves like the orcs:D Would be fun:p

Yami-Yagari
04-14-2010, 04:12 PM
how about making the orcs live like the elves and the elves like the orcs:D Would be fun:p

thatīs quite the scary thought really :eek:

DarkMaster
04-14-2010, 08:19 PM
That's not scary.

It's terrifying:eek:

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 01:05 AM
Iīve kind of seen something similar. Not really orcish elves, but more of elven hillbilly rednecks, which is actually quite hilarious:D

DarkMaster
04-16-2010, 03:27 AM
elven hillbilly rednecks, with is actually quite hilarious
No, that is actually quite creepy:eek:

LoveToKill
05-12-2010, 12:13 PM
Z_z well to be honest magic in itself is broken i dont think theres a way to make it fair but if the game devs put in magic id recomend maybe a time delay or prehaps a marker in which the other player can mightescape some of the damage kinda like starcrafts nuclear launch detected and the little red dot or make the spells where you have to be realitivly close but that would just make the mages useless cause thentheyd be single fired my main concern with it would be during sige battles the strat i see used is cast inside there base or while they attempt to take out your mages set up caties (catapults) and then bombard them allthough you may thinkill send my calv to take them out obviously id just bring up the archers and wipeout your calv. so i gues in short make it where they gota be close enough tatarchers from the walls can hit them and i guess thatshould provide some balance bugt i can see firewall becomeing o so broken if it gets casted buh bye archers onthe walls. Fire magic would have to be completly removed id imagine mainly because of the wild fire systemif they still have it i belive i saw that in a fantasy friday i belive but still random firewall in the forest wind blows the right way and the next thing you know your enemy is foced to run into you or be consumed by fire noo retreatat all and no reinforcements.

Ps srry for any misspelling just giveing my 2 cents worth

Winterwolf00
05-12-2010, 04:08 PM
I'm a little new at the forum but I really don't see how you can make an entire faction out of minotaurs. Maybe if you changed the name to Beast-men or something then you can add more then just minotaurs. Centaurs, Satyrs, Harpies, Griffins, Werewolves. Make it more diverse. Also im hearing talk about dragon kin in the dragon faction and while i think its a good idea. There still overpowered, even the kin are stronger then humans and you'll are talking about them being able to breath fire to!? The Dragon faction needs a weakness. Otherwise it WILL be unbalanced.

Kire
05-12-2010, 05:24 PM
I'm a little new at the forum but I really don't see how you can make an entire faction out of minotaurs. Maybe if you changed the name to Beast-men or something then you can add more then just minotaurs. Centaurs, Satyrs, Harpies, Griffins, Werewolves. Make it more diverse.
Isnt that with every faction out there (except orcs, goblins and trolls =P). There you have just elves (tree monsters could be argued to be devices/tools =)) and for last humans where you have just humans, just like you would have just minotaurs. Dont know how to make entire faction of minotaurs? Just look humans and its done =P -mino. spearman, mino. bowman, mino. shaman.... and you get new faction =).

blackfang
05-13-2010, 04:38 AM
give them kodos and rip off wow, that should work:D

srpiccoro
09-30-2010, 02:38 PM
Dragons not having enough unit types? Heh. This one is not familiar with D&D methinks.


Without counting the stages of dragon growth there are several dozen types of dragons with various powers, there's no reason we couldn't do that. For different roles you could have different types of dragons or dragonkin. Their 'cheap' units would be dragonkin of varying elements. Honestly, most of these would just require a unique skin and maybe a slightly different scale + unique abilities. If anything the dragons would be the EASIEST and most unique race as they'd have potentially hundreds of different units. And same with the actual dragons too not just dragonkin, again without counting growth you have one for each type of dragon, and instead of a normal leveling system we could have the growth be their own leveling system, for every battle they participate in, or based on number of kills they then get older and as dragons get older they get larger and stronger. Trust me - if we get the funding and time dragons will not be difficult to implement.


Minotaurs are a little harder if anything, but we could easily do something with them. One idea would be a caste system where they're bred into it developed into each type of warfare, there would be those trained solely in magic, archery, mounted combat, 2-3 types of foot soldiers with one spear, one defensive and one offensive, or instead of offensive/defensive a regular grunt and then simply an elite version. Or even more interesting, say they have selective mutation and have it work much the same as the caste, but instead of training for it, they're literally born with it. The last one might be a little too weird - but you get the idea. With a bit of imagination you can make just about anything work.

It sounds like you wanted the Minotaurs to be more of an amalgamation of races than minotaurs which is also another possibility, a sort of collective.



@Otomotopia:

Have you played the various Stronghold games online? One of two things happens depending on which stronghold you play. Either walls are completely worthless, or they're brokenly overpowered. There is simply no way to balance letting everyone design their own walls. We hope to have plenty of different ones to let you choose from, and even that will lead to some builds being stronger than others. It just has to be this way for balance unless you want walls to go the way of AoE2 where sure you can build a nice looking city but it isn't worth a tenth of the money you sunk into it. And with siege warfare being one of the biggest and best things about the game, reducing walls to little more than a hurdle low enough you can step over wouldn't be good.

The various customizable wall defenses are unique enough to make cities feel like your own as well, imo. With so many options and three distinct terrain's per race to choose from.
Adding to that, you could always add lesser dragon blooded races, let's say the spawn of a dragon and an elf and so on as the basic workers and make it work as the Yuan Ti, the purer the blood, the higher the standing

srpiccoro
09-30-2010, 02:43 PM
I'm a little new at the forum but I really don't see how you can make an entire faction out of minotaurs. Maybe if you changed the name to Beast-men or something then you can add more then just minotaurs. Centaurs, Satyrs, Harpies, Griffins, Werewolves. Make it more diverse. Also im hearing talk about dragon kin in the dragon faction and while i think its a good idea. There still overpowered, even the kin are stronger then humans and you'll are talking about them being able to breath fire to!? The Dragon faction needs a weakness. Otherwise it WILL be unbalanced.
When you reinvent a race, you can always choose the way they act, in the example I posted above:
Elf-Dragon Blood : Smart, Agile, but weak, not a pure blood so he doesn't have an affinity with nature and is despised by the dragon society for being weak
Human - Dragon Blood : Strong but rushes into everything : A barbarian of sorts, so he is meat fodder and isn't very resistant to charms..... I could go on but you get the point, Pure-Blooded dragons are rare and do not ally themselves with the "lesser beings" easily, your faction or whatever, should prove themselves in order to gain their support