PDA

View Full Version : No undead race please


Pilgrim
01-12-2010, 04:39 AM
I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games :D

Josh Warner
01-12-2010, 05:48 AM
I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games :D

I wouldn't worry too much about it - at the very least I believe dragons are the race most likely to be added next. Not really the sort of thing I'd know or decide about though.

As far as zombies being part of the cheap horror genre - the idea of a zombie was used in literature long before there was a cheap horror genre.

blackfang
01-12-2010, 06:20 AM
i suppose being undead, is not much to life, a soul is needed for loving breeding:) I just love when Richard from looking for group "lfg is only thing about wow that rocks" sings. Anyway undead are awesome they bring so much slaughter and misery to every world they enter:D Also they always gain strength through battles. If it were up to me we would drop the ever horrifying elves in exchange for a less horrifying, brain eating, genocidal, never ending horde of zombies. They will make the game more child friendly:rolleyes: Also i always wanted to play as undead in a strategy game:p

Kire
01-12-2010, 06:46 AM
If it were up to me we would drop the ever horrifying elves in exchange for a less horrifying, brain eating, genocidal, never ending horde of zombies.

Lul not the elves!
Beside i like undeads since they represent ultra evil and unique role in gameplay/fantasy.

Jean=A=Luc
01-12-2010, 07:20 AM
I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games :D

No offense but that's a pretty crappy argument.

Henry Martin
01-12-2010, 07:29 AM
I agree thats not a good argument, but I don't like the undead in these types of games. Orcs would repersent the evil side (to me atleast). I shouldn't say that the undead shouldn't be in the game they just shouldn't be there own race/faction (thats too many shouldn'ts). I think they should be a summoned creature.

blackfang
01-12-2010, 07:38 AM
Well the undeads are perfect if they are correct, like for instance the undead are not all evil. And the brain eaters can be the backbone eating the half dead that the main army of skeletons took down. Undeads could be very magic based and no real power magic but lots of revival and creation spells:D Also the undeads might even bring fear to players. I mean a good army of undeads should be able to continue onwards forever if played correctly but their armies are normally weak. Also undeads are the most awesome thing possible to use in a game!!! nothing can beat them!!! So if you ever need a tester for it i would HAPPILY volunteer:D Undeads are the most awesome creatures on any game possible, tough i dont like the ghost part from lotr. But every other undead is AWESOME!!!

welshie
01-12-2010, 07:40 AM
tbh i dont realy think that this side has any evil sides. As they all have there own thing. Orcs are stong yet slightly lacking on the intelect but are not all evil. Men are just the jack of all trades master of none, which can be evil if it wanted. and elves nature loving but rather 'up there own backside' as it were. all 3 races could be evil and all 3 could be good so it would be best to get the point of good and evil races out of yer head, because ultimatly you choose whos good and evil. the way i see it Orcs have poor land all they want is somewhere where it is an easier life style, humans just want to expand and elves want to keep there society intact yet all races must do evil things to get them this but thjey can do good things to :)

blackfang
01-12-2010, 07:46 AM
well, i think of myself as an evil player that is why i choose elves as the worst. That and their... special way with manners and walking and talking. They seem kinda not totally aware of their sexual alignment:o so they are currently at the bottom of my list since i prefer evil over feminism, not that i have anything against them because i do not. i just prefer the evil races:D

Pilgrim
01-12-2010, 08:20 AM
No offense but that's a pretty crappy argument.

its actually pretty simple if you genuinely don't want people to take offence. you just don't post offensive comments like that. I'm sure you are smart enough to phrase that respectfully if you really try. Don't put yourself down Jean.

Anyway.. if you want to say that you don't find my argument convincing then fair enough.
Just imagine the epic lord of the rings film and replace orcs with human zombies. If you imagine aragorn charging into the battlefiend and cutting off groaning zombies heads then it just doesn't fit. There is no scientific explanation for why something doesn't fit, but the two genres just don't mix convincingly in my opinion.

Although orcs and magic don't exist, its fun to stretch your imagination. Animated corpses just seem a bit too unrealistic to me and stop me being caught up in it all.

A race of giant pink rabbits wouldn't fit either, but it is impossible to explain why they look fine in pokemon but not here. Mixing genres just often looks wrong and ruins the effect.

blackfang
01-12-2010, 08:27 AM
Ok you say it would be unrealistic for aragorn to charge into an army of zombies, guess what? i would too. If and army of zombies is spotted it is EVERY MAN at arms!!! And then charge, and you would not use undead to kill undead! Rather use angelic power or some kinda holy madness:D

Jean=A=Luc
01-12-2010, 10:40 AM
Just imagine the epic lord of the rings film and replace orcs with human zombies. If you imagine aragorn charging into the battlefiend and cutting off groaning zombies heads then it just doesn't fit. There is no scientific explanation for why something doesn't fit, but the two genres just don't mix convincingly in my opinion.

Although orcs and magic don't exist, its fun to stretch your imagination. Animated corpses just seem a bit too unrealistic to me and stop me being caught up in it all.

A race of giant pink rabbits wouldn't fit either, but it is impossible to explain why they look fine in pokemon but not here. Mixing genres just often looks wrong and ruins the effect.


What "mixing of genres"? There's no mixing of genres here. Undead have been a part of fantasy settings since forever. Warcraft, Warhammer, D&D and yes, even LoTR (army of the dead, barrow wights, nazgul), all have undead in them.

Also you seem to imply that the undead consist exclusively of zombies which of course is not the case. For example the undead faction in WC3 has no zombies among its buildable units.

Do you really think zombies originated in B production horror movies? The undead myth (including "zombies") has existed since long before those movies were ever made. The undead have as much root in our mythology as elves, dwarves or pretty much any fantasy element.

And of course it "unrealistic" to have Aragorn fight a bunch of zombies. It's because the book is about men, elves, dwarves and orcs etc. and not zombies, it's a completely superfluous statement.

The reason why I was mildly rude to you is because you didn't seem to think things through at all but instead said "No undead plx! :p" without any sense to back it up.

You personally may not like the undead but you have no objective argument as to why they don't belong in a fantasy setting.

Pilgrim
01-12-2010, 11:20 AM
Wikipedia is good enough to point out that the modern concept of "zombies" are not a natural evolution of old afro-caribbean voodoo myth or any other ancient myth.

Yes, the idea of the dead coming back to life had been thought of before, but thats hardly George A. Romero's (night of the living dead) fault and what we now conceive of as 'zombie', including the word, is a modern idea not based on historical predecesors.

What "mixing of genres"? There's no mixing of genres here. Undead have been a part of fantasy settings since forever. Warcraft, Warhammer, D&D and yes, even LoTR (army of the dead, barrow wights, nazgul), all have undead in them.

Yes, thats kind of my point. I wouldn't have brought the subject up if I hadn't realised that it has become a recurring theme in fantasy. Perhaps i should have said "no zombies please" instead of "no undead". Ghosts and the like fit in more nicely (but i didn't specify or even make a big deal because I didn't forsee one guy feeling the need to grill me about my post).
Note that a lot of what you list is aimed at teenagers, and LoTR doesn't include zombies.

Also you seem to imply that the undead consist exclusively of zombies which of course is not the case. For example the undead faction in WC3 has no zombies among its buildable units.

true, I don't dislike all undead, as long as i don't consider it silly or over the top. in the wc3 campaign there are zombies, and also both "ghouls" and "accolytes" are zombies. Just look at them, they are rotting and green and clearly dead bodies. And if you choose the UD faction in WoW then you create a zombie, with bits of face hanging off and everything.

And of course it "unrealistic" to have Aragorn fight a bunch of zombies. It's because the book is about men, elves, dwarves and orcs etc. and not zombies, it's a completely superfluous statement.

You can't be serious. You don't need me to point out to you that it goes without saying that you'd be imagining that the role of orcs was played by zombies, with all the necessary changes. This is totally demagogic. Again, dont put yourself down.

The reason why I was mildly rude to you is because you didn't seem to think things through at all but instead said "No undead plx! :p" without any sense to back it up.

You personally may not like the undead but you have no objective argument as to why they don't belong in a fantasy setting.

I wrote two lines, I gave my opinion and I kept it light hearted. I also accepted the opinions of others. When i write "I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games :D "
I'm not attempting to "make a statement" and no Jean, i didn't research and prepare a list of references to back my opinion up.

I've already explained that to me it just doesn't fit, just like an army of bunnies or of animated tables wouldn't fit. If i had been agressive or rude to anyone I would understand why you want to 'demand proof' but honestly.. it was just a post in a forum and I think its time we both just got over it. Thanks anyway.

zach12wqasxz
01-12-2010, 11:59 AM
No offense but that's a pretty crappy argument.

i agree it is not the best argument, but i do see his point, hordes of zombies do not belong in the same catagory as fat dwarves and shiny unicorns....most of the time

also i found your commet quite.....unecesary,...and a little mean, especially coming from a moderater, everyone hear has the right to share there opinion and thats what forums are about. the "no offense" part of your post doesnt make it so u can be rude to others.
just stateing my whole take on the matter.

Pilgrim
01-12-2010, 12:23 PM
i agree it is not the best argument, but i do see his point, hordes of zombies do not belong in the same catagory as fat dwarves and shiny unicorns....most of the time

also i found your commet quite.....unecesary,...and a little mean, especially coming from a moderater, everyone hear has the right to share there opinion and thats what forums are about. the "no offense" part of your post doesnt make it so u can be rude to others.
just stateing my whole take on the matter.

Thank you. Ah, hadn't seen that he is a mod as well. Oh well, at least I havent recieved any formal warning over the matter.

Josh Warner
01-12-2010, 12:37 PM
Wikipedia is good enough to point out that the modern concept of "zombies" are not a natural evolution of old afro-caribbean voodoo myth or any other ancient myth.


Yes, the idea of the dead coming back to life had been thought of before, but thats hardly George A. Romero's (night of the living dead) fault and what we now conceive of as 'zombie', including the word, is a modern idea not based on historical predecesors.

Not every zombie since his movie can be accredited to his movie. Everyone has different sources of inspiration, again, ancient literature and the voodoo myth have been cited for many cases of the modern zombie, not just Night of the living dead.

Yes, thats kind of my point. I wouldn't have brought the subject up if I hadn't realised that it has become a recurring theme in fantasy. Perhaps i should have said "no zombies please" instead of "no undead". Ghosts and the like fit in more nicely (but i didn't specify or even make a big deal because I didn't forsee one guy feeling the need to grill me about my post).
Note that a lot of what you list is aimed at teenagers, and LoTR doesn't include zombies.


Lotr actually does have zombie, zombies. Middle earth is a much bigger world than just the trilogy and the hobbit. It has tons of material - and there are in fact zombies in some of it. Reanimated corpses, not just the undead.

true, I don't dislike all undead, as long as i don't consider it silly or over the top. in the wc3 campaign there are zombies, and also both "ghouls" and "accolytes" are zombies. Just look at them, they are rotting and green and clearly dead bodies. And if you choose the UD faction in WoW then you create a zombie, with bits of face hanging off and everything.

Acolytes are actually humans, not the undead. They're a cult that view death and returning as the undead the ultimate reward. Ghouls are an 'evolved' zombie that has reached true undeath according to the lore, though specifically what that means is vague. They are really just slightly more intelligent zombies though, yes.

As for the Undead in World of Warcraft you can't call them zombies, they've retained all their intelligence. They truly are undead, it's an entirely different concept in this universe. Zombies are thralls that serve a master or their baser instinct to feed. Undeath is closer to well, immortality seeing as how all they lose of themselves is living tissue, now they're reanimated flesh with all the intelligence of their former life. I think a better comparison for the Undead is actually Frankenstein's monster, not zombies. Not an exact fit but much closer.




You can dislike zombies for whatever reasons you'd like to, that is your choice. Personally I've never liked the concept of the undead for various reasons, though that has more to do with the concept of undeath allowing an unstoppable army in the literal sense. But your argument is more bias and essentially zombies are bad because they're popular than anything else.

You also need to keep in mind the undead - zombies and skeletons in particular are also a staple to those of us who enjoy pen and paper RPGs. Almost every D&D character has gone through a zombie and skeleton infested graveyard/crypt at one point or another. Sure, a horde of the undead taking over the world scenario is outrageous can get rid of the suspension of disbelief - but I don't think the undead, either zombies or skeletons in and of themselves can kill the suspension of disbelief. A contained incident of uncontrolled magic ressurecting everything in a graveyard for example in the context of D&D was cool and interesting, zombies taking over the world in an apocalypse scenario maybe not so much, but most incarnations of zombies in high fantasy are NOT the cheap thiller movie zombie, they're a type of necromancy and used to create a more traditional army. Not to take over the world with a disease or virus. A big difference between high fantasy zombies and modern film zombies is simple - a zombie biting you means you almost always turn into one yourself very rapidly, or if you die you'll come back as one. In high fantasy however it requires either an item of considerable power, or necromancy in the form of spells/runes and what not. Being bitten only means that part of your flesh has been gnawed at, not that you're doomed to be a zombie. And indeed, the everything dead within an area/or anyone bitten will automatically become a zombie is a silly scenario, the way high fantasy does it for the most part is far more palatable and doesn't ruin the suspension of disbelief, at least not for most of us.

Henry Martin
01-12-2010, 12:57 PM
To me, zombies in fantasy like this seem more of a supporting "Character" like how the dragons are (right now atleast). The zombies can be summoned with magic to help as a "mercenary" if you will. If they were made as a faction, something/someone non-zombie would have to control them. Like in "dragon age" lore the darkspawn are unified, but only because of the archdemon other wise they are disorganized, attacking everything including themselves.

zach12wqasxz
01-12-2010, 01:25 PM
You can dislike zombies for whatever reasons you'd like to, that is your choice. Personally I've never liked the concept of the undead for various reasons, though that has more to do with the concept of undeath allowing an unstoppable army in the literal sense. But your argument is more bias and essentially zombies are bad because they're popular than anything else.

You also need to keep in mind the undead - zombies and skeletons in particular are also a staple to those of us who enjoy pen and paper RPGs. Almost every D&D character has gone through a zombie and skeleton infested graveyard/crypt at one point or another. Sure, a horde of the undead taking over the world scenario is outrageous can get rid of the suspension of disbelief - but I don't think the undead, either zombies or skeletons in and of themselves can kill the suspension of disbelief. A contained incident of uncontrolled magic ressurecting everything in a graveyard for example in the context of D&D was cool and interesting, zombies taking over the world in an apocalypse scenario maybe not so much, but most incarnations of zombies in high fantasy are NOT the cheap thiller movie zombie, they're a type of necromancy and used to create a more traditional army. Not to take over the world with a disease or virus. A big difference between high fantasy zombies and modern film zombies is simple - a zombie biting you means you almost always turn into one yourself very rapidly, or if you die you'll come back as one. In high fantasy however it requires either an item of considerable power, or necromancy in the form of spells/runes and what not. Being bitten only means that part of your flesh has been gnawed at, not that you're doomed to be a zombie. And indeed, the everything dead within an area/or anyone bitten will automatically become a zombie is a silly scenario, the way high fantasy does it for the most part is far more palatable and doesn't ruin the suspension of disbelief, at least not for most of us.

To me, zombies in fantasy like this seem more of a supporting "Character" like how the dragons are (right now atleast). The zombies can be summoned with magic to help as a "mercenary" if you will. If they were made as a faction, something/someone non-zombie would have to control them. Like in "dragon age" lore the darkspawn are unified, but only because of the archdemon other wise they are disorganized, attacking everything including themselves.

you both have great points, it actually has changed my perspective of zombies in fantasy a little.
in my experience with zombies in games that have a slight fantasy like setting, there always like what josh said, not end of the world virus that infects all life instantly when exposed, but more magical like being summoned by a wizard or something.
but what with u have krabs said, you could get away with zombies in DOF, but ONLY ( in my opinion ) if you make it so that your wizards could raise fallen comrads to fight again. make it so the zombies are like bloody and tattered in there uniform, and no matter what unit they were before, make them all close range melee units. this would be an extremely powerful spell in my opinion. like before every battle i would enchant my soldiers to where if they died in battle they would raise again as undead soldiers. this is the only way to mix in zombies with DOF and have it all make sense
btw i still think zombies dont belong very well in fantasy, but i will make exceptions in some cases

Puppeteer
01-12-2010, 01:30 PM
what we now conceive of as 'zombie', including the word, is a modern idea not based on historical predecesors.
So actually you don't like your conception of the idea of Undead. You're not allowing for originality - if the Undead were to be included, do you really think that they'd just have zombies? Despite the name Undead (and zombies) usually referring to generic conceptions, its and umbrella term encompassing significantly varying ideas. It's up to personal preference really whether you like them or not, in which you shouldn't dictate that people who want them should be denied. I don't like Dwarves, and not just for aesthetics. Does that mean I'm telling DoF to steer clear? Of course not.
And how are they different genres?

Pilgrim
01-12-2010, 02:06 PM
Puppeteer I've seen that threads that go this way are not recoverable, so I'm not gonna return fire here. Just re-read my 2-line original post carefully and if you really find me making the kind of demands you think you are responding to then fair enough.
Its a suggestion forum and it was a short suggestion. I respected the opinions of the people who responded with decently worded disagreements too. If you want to read any more into it then its up to you.
I'm moving on to other threads.

Kire
01-12-2010, 03:27 PM
I have an idea!
Wouldnt be interesting, if undeads werent playing faction, that would be made, as mongols in total war, as invasion ..... there would be one lich/xx behind and would spread poison which would return some units to life when they die as undeads under his command. Also they will be lurking some undead groups/armies around and attacking stuff. So the best way to defeat invasion is to find lich/xx and kill him. To do so, the best way would be that all players would work together or they will fail or make even more undeads. Imagine capital city being sacked which would increase amount of undeads =). But if they fail the army of undeads leave and take x% of your goods (because if all ppl fail the undeads would be there forever killing everyone which would kill the gameplay).

welshie
01-12-2010, 03:41 PM
Well picking up the previous comments on undead, i also dont like the idea people say that they would be the ultimate army but get this.

1. If you get killed by undead so that you turn surly you wouldn't join the people who just killed you and then be expected to serve these people like a slave, I for one wouldnt and start attacking the undead.

2. If the undead started attacking someone surly they would be no match for someone at full health and has not limping problems eaither that or they can just run away easy solution.

3. In this game what would be there food sorce as humans have grain and livestock, orc have there worgs and stuff and elves use the forest. The undead would need brains and organs so the only viable option would be to eat them selves or have a human/orc/elf breeding program because im sure enough they cnt raid people all the time as more they kill more there are more mouths to feed, or they would just try to attack somewhere and be ahniliated by soilders. thus all dieing out :)

blackfang
01-12-2010, 03:50 PM
Well do it like this then, NO FRICKIN ZOMBIES! Make them mercenary and very weak but you can raise large armies if they manage to stay alive through a battle and kill a unit. THEN you got for the traditional Ghoul/skeleton armies! With a necromancer hero who can either raise them one after another or do like they do on vikings battle for aasgard, they stand there spawning groups of people to keep on fighting as other groups die. I could not care less if the zombies were in the game, what i want is UNDEAD in general. They make me THINK i got an overpowering army even tough they barely manage to walk straight:D

zach12wqasxz
01-12-2010, 09:14 PM
what i want is UNDEAD in general. They make me THINK i got an overpowering army even tough they barely manage to walk straight:D

haha funny post.
what happens when hordes of undead take down an ogre? zombie ogre?

Jean=A=Luc
01-12-2010, 10:51 PM
haha funny post.
what happens when hordes of undead take down an ogre? zombie ogre?

A skeletal one. ;)

blackfang
01-12-2010, 11:04 PM
then it should die, until it is resurrected by an evil power that far exceeds the expectations of the entire game community:D

Unen
01-12-2010, 11:16 PM
then it should die, until it is resurrected by an evil power that far exceeds the expectations of the entire game community:D

I agree, this thread has gotten way out of hand and people are un-reasonably being rude. Its just a suggestion, his opinion nothing that deserves semi hostile bickering. And if I understand peoples opinions correctly the OP is arguing against dawn of the dead brain eating type zombies, NOT(?) necessarily the type of ghosts/skeletons/lich's that are shown/used in things like DND, warcraft or other similar fantasy settings which is what people seem to be assuming and arguing back about the OP being wrong. Close the thread maybe?

Josh Warner
01-12-2010, 11:43 PM
I agree, this thread has gotten way out of hand and people are un-reasonably being rude. Its just a suggestion, his opinion nothing that deserves semi hostile bickering. And if I understand peoples opinions correctly the OP is arguing against dawn of the dead brain eating type zombies, NOT(?) necessarily the type of ghosts/skeletons/lich's that are shown/used in things like DND, warcraft or other similar fantasy settings which is what people seem to be assuming and arguing back about the OP being wrong. Close the thread maybe?

I thought the discussion was pretty civil myself Unen.

I don't even think he's 'wrong' at all, I just think his argument for it in the first place wasn't very good, little more than discussion. I'd much rather see several other races made before one revolving around the undead.

blackfang
01-12-2010, 11:50 PM
I only posted what i thought about the zombie troll becoming a skeletal one;)

nickson104
01-13-2010, 05:30 AM
My favourite 'undead' faction in a loooong time... The Drowning Doom, in Brutal Legend... That game was great fun, the characters interacted well and a good story (if short) was developed, with three awesome factions... XD

The Drowning Doom, basically a sort of undead faction, battled mainly through DEPRESSING their opponents! :p
The wiki of them is the following link
http://brutallegend.wikia.com/wiki/Drowning_Doom
My favourite description has to be of the gravediggers, 'they fight in large numbers as this helps them to express their individuality' :p

This is another one of Tim Schafers games that did not disappoint, but never had as much popularity as it should have...

Of course this is all personal opinion...

Chris Harshman
01-13-2010, 08:06 AM
I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games :D

The biggest thing youa re overlooking os that Undead are not just zombies, and never will be be.

Undead in fantasy range from Necromancers, Lichs, abominations, demons, zombies, skeletons, mummies, as well as a variety of other creatures.

Puppeteer
01-13-2010, 09:47 AM
I agree, this thread has gotten way out of hand and people are un-reasonably being rude. Its just a suggestion, his opinion nothing that deserves semi hostile bickering. And if I understand peoples opinions correctly the OP is arguing against dawn of the dead brain eating type zombies, NOT(?) necessarily the type of ghosts/skeletons/lich's that are shown/used in things like DND, warcraft or other similar fantasy settings which is what people seem to be assuming and arguing back about the OP being wrong. Close the thread maybe?

Man up woman!

I kind of like the idea that, in lieu of creating a playable faction, the Undead could be incorporated into the campaign (not just an addition to some maps/minor events). As such the Undead, it could be argued, aren't technically/naturally a race, leaving scope for a variety of different ethnic Undead (ha, never thought I'd say that before). Having said that, if the Undead were turned living creatures that had their genetic information mutated to a similar degree, then they are a race. Same as ogres and orcs - similar, not the same. Perhaps not so ethnocentrically oriented :p
Imagine renegade sorcerers backing a thousand-strong army of Undead creatures popping up every now and then, having a go at your castle. Or a plague turns half/most/all the population of a neighbouring town, inclusive of soldiers, and you have to cull them. Fighting an unmanned-but-inhabited castle anyone?

blackfang
01-13-2010, 10:58 AM
Would be fun, well i hope you never meet blackmore:D That is the town in my story on create a story, or the continuation. It tells about a unmanned but very much inhabited place, well it will be unnmanned:D

Supreme
01-13-2010, 11:24 AM
Let use not forget the (first) orcs were mutilated elves, in a way, thats undead too.

Undead in fantasy range from Necromancers, Lichs, abominations, demons, zombies, skeletons, mummies, as well as a variety of other creatures. Vampires!

blackfang
01-13-2010, 11:32 AM
ghosts and sometimes dark elves are, but not always. Also jellyfish don't count as living beings do they?

nickson104
01-13-2010, 12:12 PM
ghosts and sometimes dark elves are, but not always. Also jellyfish don't count as living beings do they?

Jelly fish technically live, although they have no life as such... thats an odd one :p You already planning the undead naval units? :p :p

As long as the undead have some lich's, necromancers, plenty of forbidden magics and of course skeletal wyvern!! :) :p

Jean=A=Luc
01-13-2010, 12:31 PM
You guys are so crazy sometimes. :p

Let use not forget the (first) orcs were mutilated elves, in a way, thats undead too.

Only Tolkien's orcs, the rest have their own creation myths. There's mention that Tolkien was actually unhappy with the current state of affairs and wanted to change the story into men as being the orcs' true origin.

ghosts and sometimes dark elves are, but not always. Also jellyfish don't count as living beings do they?

Biologically anything that sustains its life functions, reproduces and ceases to function is defined as alive (this definition isn't text book precise but it's essentially true). In layman's terms anything that eats, ****s, ****s (in a sense) and dies is considered to be living and this includes jellyfish, viruses, sea cucumbers and a lot of other things too.

Also in all fantasy settings I know Dark Elves are as alive as anyone else. They may more inclined towards "dark magicks" than others but that only makes them evil, not undead. There are undead dark elves of course but the same goes for "regular elves", humans and any other "undeadafiable" creature.

I'm really curious why you singled out poor jellyfish. I mean I kinda understand it but still... :p

blackfang
01-13-2010, 01:07 PM
Ok then to put it simply with the dark elves, once upon a time. I read a horrible horror book with lots of stuff that almost made me puke, then there were the elves. Good and kind if you don't get shot at first. Then you had the dark elves, beings that were life sustained only through dark magic, kinda like demons but they were rather like the elves but evil and "non living" So thats why the dark elves not always exist alive, sometimes they can be dead yet alive, thus undead. Ohh and it was not like they were corpses, they were created out of the spirits of the elves. Kinda like materialized ghosts:)

Also i singled out jelly fish because i hate them, also i was looking at a movie called the sphere. There the jellyfish are so evil they penetrate a girl's swimming suit and kill her:mad:

nickson104
01-13-2010, 01:09 PM
You guys are so crazy sometimes. :p

They may more inclined towards "dark magicks" than others but that only makes them evil

I'm really curious why you singled out poor jellyfish. I mean I kinda understand it but still... :p

A - Yes we are crazy, but you love us for it! :)

B - That only applies if you see dark magic as evil...

C - I dont know why the jellyfish XD But its rather amusing :) :p

Blackfang... was the girl attractive? :p

blackfang
01-13-2010, 01:25 PM
Well i don't really remember, i just remember the scene when they picked jellyfish out of her mouth. Terrible, also it was not a normal swimsuit it was a depth diving suit:D

nickson104
01-13-2010, 01:27 PM
Well i don't really remember, i just remember the scene when they picked jellyfish out of her mouth. Terrible, also it was not a normal swimsuit it was a depth diving suit:D

oh well then it doesnt matter... ;) :p

blackfang
01-13-2010, 01:33 PM
Well i guess it don't, i have a terrible memory when i try to describe something. My memory is equal to a goldfish, tell me something and i forgot it after a minute. But then again my memory has no equal when it comes to remembering things like songs, i mean since i was in 6th grade i still got a song i never remember the name on but i still remember that song, also my memory of books is great too:D So i guess that takes my general memory storage:(

Anyway that was a LONG and unnecessary explanation of how i could not remember that girl.

If that was not of any use then it was not:)

nickson104
01-13-2010, 01:42 PM
Well i guess it don't, i have a terrible memory when i try to describe something. My memory is equal to a goldfish, tell me something and i forgot it after a minute. But then again my memory has no equal when it comes to remembering things like songs, i mean since i was in 6th grade i still got a song i never remember the name on but i still remember that song, also my memory of books is great too:D So i guess that takes my general memory storage:(


Im pretty much the same actually... I cant remember normal day to day stuff, but i have a great memory for songs, useless information and lessons... if vague at times...

blackfang
01-13-2010, 02:03 PM
Ohh yeah, even songs i try to forget because they take too much space is impossible to forget, i might not remember them by name but when i do remember a thing a week back its certain to stay forever. I remember pointless things like a game of red alert i played when i was 5 years old, i could probably recreate it now but it would be too much trouble. I really dont need to know that. but i forget relations in maths whenever i hear that word i just go blanc. I mean i went from 4 - 3 because of that.

Aametherar
01-17-2010, 03:12 PM
Back on topic I don't think the argument made is good, and I have no problem with undead races myself, but I think they are better off as an element of nature. Just mindless AI romping around causing a ruckus rather than an organized normal race. Or they could even start that way and slowly get more organized with larger and larger groups over time through linear progression, which could be pretty cool.

Kire
01-17-2010, 04:59 PM
Back on topic I don't think the argument made is good, and I have no problem with undead races myself, but I think they are better off as an element of nature. Just mindless AI romping around causing a ruckus rather than an organized normal race. Or they could even start that way and slowly get more organized with larger and larger groups over time through linear progression, which could be pretty cool.

One day a powerful mage casted a spell to control them and go to conquer the world !!! =)
How can they be elements of nature ?? first they need to be resurected by x person or they can be ghosts =).

otomotopia
02-10-2010, 01:21 PM
Undead would be freaking awesome.

First of all, mass skeleton warriors FTW.
Secondly, Their seige weapons give artists and game designers areal fun time.
Thirdly, It just LOOKS cool. Giving the undead lands a bit of a 'creep' would be awesome.

It's a very fun race to play in games that go indepth with them-WC3 got them right, and its my favorite race to play besides orcs.

Negthareas
02-10-2010, 05:58 PM
I don't think undead should have linear progression - otherwise they would get to powerful to stop because players would ignore them until too late. Who wants an MMORTS dominated by an AI army of undead?

But, as random scatterings, sound okay.

I think it best if there is a kind of "underworld". As part of an advanced quest, players may have to descend down there with an army to get stuff.

Maybe undead are remnents of an ancient super-magical race. They cast a spell to make themselves immortal - it did but as undead. So, the underworld is a place chuck full of magic items, etc. but guarded jealously by undead.

Undead could be many things - dark elves [dromes], zombies, whatever. They could be their own civilization.

Undead usually not enter overworld, except to pillage every now and then, but can be hired in small numbers.

zach12wqasxz
02-10-2010, 06:44 PM
Undead could be many things - dark elves [dromes], zombies, whatever. They could be their own civilization.



do you mean Drowes? or is it really Dromes?

Negthareas
02-11-2010, 08:18 PM
do you mean Drowes? or is it really Dromes?

I thought it was dromes, but drowes is probably right. When it comes to names that I am not too familiar with, I tend to create impressions rather than spellings to remember them.

Jean=A=Luc
02-12-2010, 03:15 AM
It's Drow. :) It's an irregular plural form like fish or sheep.

Josh Warner
02-12-2010, 03:20 AM
Depends on the universe.. but the dark elves are just Drow for both plural and singular in Forgotten Realms.

ash12181987
02-12-2010, 10:29 PM
On an unrelated note... can we please not have Drow, or 'dark' elves ingeneral?

That said: Undead: Absolutely. They have great potential to be a non-linear faction, based around parasitic gameplay. Like mentioned by Kire in this thread, they could rely on killing others to expand their ranks, have few structures, raid graveyards. Basically you allow the player to be as evil as humanly possible. Heck you could combine it with the Border lands, and make an orphanage structure where you cou-[The rest of this deleted because it is just Too evil... if not somewhat inspired by LFG Comic]- and in Flames! Not only that, but because it's based around a single mage (Again, referring back to Kire said earlier on in the thread), you could sap magical power from Other mages of Other races. IE: Go to a mage of another race and turn them to the dark side, thus bolstering your own power. The only Issue I see is finding a decent Backstory that isn't ripped bodily from WoW or DnD lore. The idea of an 'ancient magic, making people immortal' (Ala Negtheraeas) isn't bad though.

Another vote towards: Bring them in.

DarkMaster
02-13-2010, 12:52 AM
On an unrelated note... can we please not have Drow, or 'dark' elves ingeneral?

Count me in on this one. Next it'll be Light Elves, then Sea Elves, then Desert Elves... You get my point. There should only be one elven race IMO.

Undead. I wouldn't mind them if they were a horde of Zombies, but if it goes into vampires, ghosts, basically anything really powerful, I reckon not. The living should definitely be more powerful than the (un)dead:p . But who am I to say? I wouldn't play as them except just to find out what they're like. Men FTW, and Dwarves.

blackfang
02-13-2010, 06:37 AM
OOO OOO i got it!!! Vampire as the lord! Ghouls, skeletons, zombie and other less fortunate beings as soldiers. The wizards are the necromancers under the vampire (which is a lord that turned the first undead) And ghosts are no physical beings so they can act as your scouts eventually you could upgrade them to haunt an armor so they could fight too. Then again only an successful attack will create new units for you, since if you die you can count on that the remaining human/elf/orc forces would kill of any newly born undead as they have no guiding mind and just woke up. IT WOULD BE AWESOME:D :D :D :D :D

ash12181987
02-13-2010, 07:06 AM
I was going to say if there were vampires, that they be slaving monstrosities that creep into cities and kill you some buddies to raise later. You know, kinda Dusk til Dawn vampires... Why? Because I f-ing hate the idea of romantic Vampires, when we could have creepy Nosferatu hanging off the ceiling and raising a mindless glob of things just like him.

Jean=A=Luc
02-13-2010, 07:29 AM
And ghosts are no physical beings so they can act as your scouts eventually you could upgrade them to haunt an armor so they could fight too.

That'd be pretty cool. Maybe they could "scavenge" dead units to haunt their armour.

Heroes of Annihilated Empires also had a neat thing where vampires could turn into bats to act as scouts or cross water than turn back into vampires to fight.

Or werewolves who were crossbowmen in their human form and vicious melee fighters in wolf shape.

Puppeteer
02-13-2010, 09:46 AM
That'd be pretty cool. Maybe they could "scavenge" dead units to haunt their armour.

That is one awesome idea!

blackfang
02-13-2010, 10:08 AM
I would love to see ghosts taking over the armor of some dead guys, perhaps make a fail chance for reviving the dead so that the ghosts can scavenge the failed dead guys:D That would make it a lot more realistic or else you would pretty much to save time just revive all to undead. Also once the ghost inhabits an armor they cannot run away from it, they get the armor ++ of the dead being but will die like any other. Think of them as heavy infantry, they can take a lot of arrow rains but then again they are slow. Thus making them great for lining up and taking the pounding at the start but no good against agile stuff. You know what, make the zombies the lighties since they are not powerful but they tend to be many. The skeletons normal infantry as they can vary in many ways. The ghosts however can take the role of heavy. Or you can just designate the creatures to take the role of the dead ones they take over:D

sneaky_squirrel
02-13-2010, 11:30 AM
Instead of ghosts, we should call them "Restless Souls", that as mentioned, should haunt the armor and weapons of the fallen for a price (Have the undead get a special resource they can auto collect with special buildings or killing enemies, like norse favor in AoM, we could call it "Darkness, essence, Cthulah or Sprirehnt, some undead thing name".

And as for stronger units, I'd go with specialized zombies (A collective of 3 zombie battalions to form some monster made out of all their bodies), have dead trolls be able to get possessed by ghosts instead of being looted.

Werewolves are not undead, they are monsters, living monsters.

As for vampires, they could be blood sucking zombies (Without the crappy cliché dracula cape or that much clothing and all the super natural werewolf jumping and super strength granted to them to be able to fight werewolves in movies).

They could also have zombies be able to infect with some sort of pestilence that can weaken and ultimately recruit "peasants" as very weak zombies that require no pop but die when the battle ends.


We could later start a FAN MADE zombie faction write up, I guess I'll start it later on.

Puppeteer
02-13-2010, 12:09 PM
That would add a useful feature to the Undead vampires - when looting corpses, vampires drain blood from them and heal themselves. Might also want to add a small health regeneration for every unit killed. Small, mind you, so it doesn't go get out of hand.

blackfang
02-13-2010, 01:08 PM
Ok then, what about making vampires the so called normal troops and a vampire lord (much stronger) Kinda dracula in front of humans difference. That means the vampires are the elite troops of the undead and the lord of the undead would be the vampire lord. Every undead is the result of being drained off blood from a turned vampire. (Means the vampire lord makes vampires and the vampires he makes make the undead.) That would make more sense. And once in a while there is this necromancer dude joining the undead. Kinda like a secondary hero or just a normal wizard.

wills370
02-13-2010, 02:03 PM
An intresting point possibly is a mix of the living and the undead. A sub class of human slaves that work for the vampires to which a few may gain entery into the coven if they distinguish themselves. E.g. in battle. Elite soldiers can be bought or you can have humans being turned into vampires once you recruit the elite but apart from that you have to have the normal troops or fodder as human.

Also with respect to the light.,I would say they would have to operate in light aswell as darkness etc. Otherwise it would destroy the balancing issues. Althugh maybe they could put there hoods down in the dark?

Negthareas
02-13-2010, 02:17 PM
Sounds good. Great Actually. Now we start to have a realistic sounding backdrop.

Problem - where did the vampires come from?

Solution - maybe my previous idea concerning the ancient race that spelled itslef into immortality - that could be the vampires. The spell allowed them to consume blood - to gather more life/power.

Skeletons could only be done through necromancers though, not vampires.

Only dead units could be "drained" and "brought back" by vampires, otherwise meelee units would stand no chance versus vampires. One bite/drain at the beginning and its too late.

Jean=A=Luc
02-13-2010, 05:24 PM
Sounds good. Great Actually. Now we start to have a realistic sounding backdrop.

Problem - where did the vampires come from?


A coven of powerful wizards who desired immortality. Think of them as liches in vampire form.

blackfang
02-14-2010, 06:07 AM
Also i meant a necromancer is the secondary hero as he kinda gives another unit group to the undead. However the human slaves would be cool too:D Also it could be made two teams out of this. You got the undead (most of them) And then we got the vampires. Undead uses necromancy and vampires use zombies, human slaves, lesser vampires, "Failed vampires" Which would be abominations, half vampires and the almighty vampire lord. (difference between lesser vampires and half vampires would probably be that the lesser are human turned into vampires. While the half vampires would actually be half blooded breed from human and vampire or something. Now ideas just come running out of me:p Anyways this would be fun:D

Negthareas
02-14-2010, 05:56 PM
Two different unit groups - good idea.

However, Blackfang, are we going to have the zombies exist by being "dead" and then "drained" by the vampires - and wola! zombies.

Or

Necromancer waves wands over dead bodies. Wola - zombies.

Option 1 sounds better to me. Though the vamps should have lots of necromancers, as they would be a magical race.

Or maybe, the vamps used up their magic doing their ancient immortality spell, so they have little or no magic at all! [this works with option 1]. Only the big vamp lord can do magic. Something like that?

Because - a very magical race with hordes of undead might be hard to defeat.

blackfang
02-14-2010, 11:57 PM
i meant both, the undead got the waving wand kinda zombies that eat brains and chew eye balls. However the vampires would have zombies made from being drained and then the zombies can make more zombies. (The vampires have your traditional slow walking picking up strength as they go kinda zombies while the necromancer zombies are the type that can get a variety. Also they have to be already dead to be brought back.) Then we got the race which uses zombies for meatshields and we got the race which uses zombies on equals as other undead.

EmpressHebihime
02-15-2010, 05:03 AM
In this thread I have but one oppinion: Do NOT make them as overpowered as in Warcraft3 (They had always mass tower wall and armys when you have mass army and they win with less army. plus they have disease ability.)

blackfang
02-15-2010, 01:40 PM
Undead was impossible to take when no flying units where involved in tight areas:mad: However thats why we use blink heroes:D

EmpressHebihime
02-15-2010, 05:55 PM
Just that there were only one sadly.

Negthareas
02-15-2010, 06:44 PM
So Blackfang - you are suggesting that the Vamps have two different types of zombies - ones relivened by a necromancer, and ones drained by a vampire.

blackfang
02-16-2010, 06:57 AM
I am suggesting two factions that can have zombie units or just one faction either way they can use zombies so... I mean either you can make the undead with vampires integrated, or you make the undeads with the necromancer at head on one side and the undeads (another type) with the vampire lord on the other side. Both rely on zombies as one of their most basic infantry... Watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfh4EeoFJBg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLdBmPAJ6sQ&feature=related
I guess those should enlighten you on how i got the idea of vampire made zombies... Also everyone heard of necromancers raising zombies so no problem:p Start at number one!

Negthareas
02-16-2010, 07:07 PM
Hmm, i think having 2 undead factions might be pushing it a bit far. Better stick with just one.

Undead -

Vampire Lord - hero
Vampires - can drain dead to make lesser vampires [or stronger undead]
Necromancers - can liven dead to make lesser undead

vampires would make up the basic units

blackfang
02-16-2010, 11:58 PM
... thats what i have been saying, either two factions or one faction with both:p

wills370
02-18-2010, 08:53 AM
The necros could be a intresting addition they could even themselves be dark elves who instead of looking at retaining the beauty of earth etc would instead function to savour the beauty of death (Could be the key change). Who they themselves have given up there souls or essence and in return have been granted the gift of been niether alive nor dead but caught between on the border, where they can set vigil agianst thoose that die around choosing either to let them pass into the death realm or claw them back or call upon something darker from the death to come back and inhabit the body that has remained. Thereby they would function somewhat as a portal or border gate. they could have a unique look standing taller and heavyier built then a normal elf having lived many generations longer then what should.

Sounds good although the necromancers will be alittle overpowered it seems. As if you spam then even as they die another could just reanimate the dead.to counter this my options would be...

One option would be either to make them very weak. So even reanimated they dont really pose a threat but really tie up your troops?

Secondly they could alter into the "reanimated" or somthing so that the same bodies cant be reanimated.

Thirdly there should be limits on the type of dead that can be recruited. firstly thoose killed by spells,fire,or crushed can not be reanimated as they would not have functioning body's or essence to which to inhabit.


I think that would help some balancing issues. I also think that there should be a limited or complex morale system in place as killing your friend is never going to be easy even if he has just been turned into a blood drinking monster. Although this would have to be carfully modeded to ensure there are upper limits to this as to not make them to overpowered as moral battering rams.

anothing think is i belive necromancers should be pretty defenceless in themselves but rely on the fodder to either protect them from the odd stray enemy or to provide enough time to disapear into the fight.

There could also be options for which could be recruited. Like a necro would recruit 1 corpse troll which would function agianst an enemy or have the choice of spamming many dead corpses (upto a maximum tha can increase with necro's level to reflect his learning of the dark arts).

Negthareas
02-20-2010, 11:02 AM
Sounds good - Possibly options for Vamps

- An ancient race that tried to create a spell to make them immortal
-they failed, and all died
-but were brought back by a great necromancer
-Thus, there are vampire units that create "better" zombies
-and necromancer units that create "lesser" but more numerous zombies

BrogaGlas
02-24-2010, 11:14 AM
Undead would make for a skewed economy. They wouldn't need food. They would perfer the corpses of the slain to timber and stone. The problem is in a massive scenario, they ain't gonna be balanced unless zombies had a limited duration in which they're animated. Massive amounts of ppl dying = massive amounts of zombies. It'd start to get too big.

valentine82
02-24-2010, 02:21 PM
You Jackass, Undead are by far one of my favorites.

I don't know what idiot decided that Undead could be nothing but zombies but Undeath provides a lot of room for fantasy lore writing. They don't have to be simple mindless zombies or skeletons, they could be tormented by their undeath, crying out in pain as magic binds them to kill their loved ones at the call of a Necromancer. They could be Vampires, Liches, and other sapient dead.

Negthareas
02-24-2010, 08:54 PM
I don't think it would be too big - the economy aspect would be the production of the vamps and their siege units, buildings, etc. Vamps could only be created by actual resources.

Units reanimated or drained should not be able to spread.

Only true vamps drain and only necromancers reanimate.

I loved the idea of forcefully against will [valentine] - but I had pictured most of the reanimated and drained as being already dead, and Vampires being a race. It is something to think about.

wills370
02-25-2010, 12:07 PM
This is where a human sub class would come in. Although the undead could include another rescource in the respect to corpses. or human sacrifices. Which woud either be supplied by sieges or there own when the go to become the undead higher. The human sub class however would continue to use meat,wood and timber in the construction of buildings etc as would any other race.

Negthareas
03-01-2010, 08:52 PM
This is where a human sub class would come in. Although the undead could include another rescource in the respect to corpses. or human sacrifices. Which woud either be supplied by sieges or there own when the go to become the undead higher. The human sub class however would continue to use meat,wood and timber in the construction of buildings etc as would any other race.

Good idea - though they would be horrible for fighting.

human slaves build structures, get resources
structures build vamps
vamps fight well, etc.
Vamps rule human slaves
Vamps drain corpses to create zombies
Necros reanimate corpses to create zombies

blackfang
03-02-2010, 05:27 AM
they could for instance drain living being too and turn them into happy little zombies hungry for brains...

Negthareas
03-02-2010, 07:41 AM
I imagine it would be too easy if they could drain living beings - meelee units would be useless against them.

blackfang
03-02-2010, 08:58 AM
ever heard of one hit kills? It a common thing for strategic battles, sometime when you are in a war a person is killed in one hit. However here the vampires would be busy with the first line and thus easily killed by second line, besides pikemen and spearmen should kill them easier. Unless we are talking about vamps with heavy armors and a giant battleaxe... The vamps are faster stronger and all that yes, well how about we make them the undead cavalry. They are weak against spears and pikes since they would normally not wear an armor, they got bonus to charge however it is not as good as normal melee soldiers since the melee soldiers got armor to protect them and weapons to kill the enemy. However if the unit is taken from behind its decimated. Just think about the headline
Unit taken from behind
That should make a few soldiers watch their backs:rolleyes:

Negthareas
03-02-2010, 01:50 PM
It makes sense to have them [vamps] as cavalry [also archers, and heavy infantry]

The undead will have no medium - light infantry because they have zombies. This would effect their gameplay a lot.

Negthareas
03-02-2010, 01:50 PM
Vamps cost a lot - zombies hardly cost anything except maybe recharge times for draining and reanimating.

Zeluk
03-02-2010, 03:28 PM
My personal take on an Undead faction would be as such:

Make them a purely AI entity, as someone else suggested earlier in the thread (can't remember who). A faction that might crop up from time to time to 'annoy' the players. Just something to add to the setting and add a PvE element. Maybe the Undead would get so numerous as to force a few players to band together to stop it, thus provide a fun side quest.

Their units would be extremely weak in comparison to all other factions military units. To offset this weakness make it so were there are a bunch of them. Of course, the better equipped more disciplined player's units can beat the pants off of a few squads, but a legion might overwhelm a players defenses very quickly.

To comment on undead in general I must admit that Zombies have sky-rocketed in popularity the past decade. As for Vampires, personally hate every incarnation of them, just one cliche after another, same goes for Dark Elves/Drow. They might have worked in one particular setting but, in my opinion, they have been blown way out of proportion. Again just my personal views not meaning to offend any fans out there.

So to recap, I'd like to see them as a side quest or PvE presence not a fully fledged out faction.

Negthareas
03-02-2010, 08:49 PM
The only reason I was pushing for vamps especially was because it sort of made sense - we just needed a main unit for the Undead besides zombies.

blackfang
03-03-2010, 07:43 AM
then we got skeletons that can carry weapons and we got abominations that are huge as well as small. We got the idea to use ghosts that can take over stuff, we can use ghouls and necromancers. We can use zombie/skeleton undead animals, we can also use skeleton or zombie cavalry. We got voids (you know those armors with a black entity inside, like a haunted armor only with a complete darkness inside.) The possibilities are insanely many, look for instance at the skeleton dragon from warcraft, something similar can be used here. Actually the undead race have the be the easiest faction to create units for:D They can have every single unit every other race can use, and ten times the numbers. (plus they got an infinite number of choices on how to create abominations) So vampires are not needed but i think they are kinda cool when they turn units into undead. Also to the undead as an npc factions, why necessarily a npc? Its easy to balance it to be equally as strong as other factions, the undead can have larger armies then the orcs. They can create "normal" zombies during battle, they bring huge numbers of those. But they don't have too many strong units, they mainly focus on undead that can't use anything remotely close to intelligence. However their elite units got more intelligence however they are few. "recruit" armies are like zombies and skeletons for melee and incredibly stupid. "average" They can fight on close to equal terms with orcs of equal numbers but not of humans and elves. "Elite" Can fight with a human army fairly, however to get them to this lvl it would require a lot of fighting. The undeads can be an incredibly complicated "race" actually they are not a race but death walking. Anyways its also a very simple group of units, if there ever was a faction that could adept to any type of game play it would be undead, you can restrict them however you want or you can free them and make them almighty. Or you could use something in the middle. Look for instance warcraft zombies and undead, they don't turn others into undead while killing them. They got special units that can revive them, also during the WoW event during halloween you could be a zombie and infect others and within a minute they would turn zombies, then so on and so on:D Just try something and balancing them is not that hard:D

Puppeteer
03-03-2010, 12:06 PM
Actually, I'm starting to turn against the idea of an Undead playable option. It's race, not faction - as a Campaign focal point (or marginal, persistent nuisance with some eventualy culmination) or 'Creep', it would work.
Now that I think about it, it just doesn't make sense any more, even if I do enjoy the idea! I'd rather fight an army of them, or vagabond Lich Lords creating havoc.

blackfang
03-03-2010, 12:39 PM
you know that race thingie depends, if they are made so by an virus AkA getting eaten and then turned into then it is. However if they are magically created they are not really a race, then they are just dead being manipulated through a puppeteer. I would guess you prefer the latter tough:D

Puppeteer
03-03-2010, 12:45 PM
you know that race thingie depends, if they are made so by an virus AkA getting eaten and then turned into then it is. However if they are magically created they are not really a race, then they are just dead being manipulated through a puppeteer. I would guess you prefer the latter tough:D

Hell to the yeah!
Still this 'virus' (which I presume you mean altering DNA) is rather tenuous :p

blackfang
03-03-2010, 02:31 PM
actually by virus it is something that i mean to make the body move after death, it really uses the nerve system and all that to control. That is after all what i see in movies:D I mean no zombie movie without the zombie virus:cool:

Puppeteer
03-03-2010, 02:44 PM
it really uses the nerve system and all that to control
In which case it is most certainly not a race; not by anyone's standards!
I do like the idea of a scripted 'plague' series of scenarios where you discover the problem, must defend farmsteads, your own fortress and then root out the origin of the Undead infestation. Map series here I come :D

Zeluk
03-03-2010, 05:11 PM
Also to the undead as an npc factions, why necessarily a npc? Its easy to balance it to be equally as strong as other factions

I'm not saying that balancing their units to be the equivalent of other factions wouldn't be hard (of course I know little to nothing about game developing), I'm just saying that if someone were to put the effort into it they might as well go ahead and make them a playable one.

The whole reason why I was petitioning to make the NPC faction's undead units weak was that in a game like this the greatest challenge to a player should be another player. NPC's in the end just can't come close to the same level as a human player (of course I still can't for the life of me beat my own computer at chess :( ). Not to mention, of course, that making the undead a minor NPC faction would take less time to implement in the final game, because I don't know about you but I'd like to see this game released this year, with or without undead.

So in the end what I would like to see is just a minor NPC faction that crops up here and there that could provide some fun side quest for 1-3 players.

Negthareas
03-03-2010, 07:10 PM
If we don't want the undead, they can go - I just thought that they were popular enough for a "civilization" of their own.

blackfang
03-04-2010, 05:00 AM
They are, but wait till later expansions. I love the idea of zombies and undead however just being able to fight them is kinda sad with the potential. Also an npc with undead would really be more realistic, undeads use close to no tactics. But i still wanna play em:(

kissklas
04-07-2010, 06:07 AM
I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.

I agree, save the zombies for splatter movies/games. Besides, zombies arent smart enough to build cities! What they do best is eat people and die.

blackfang
04-07-2010, 07:49 AM
I agree, save the zombies for splatter movies/games. Besides, zombies arent smart enough to build cities! What they do best is eat people and die.

And thats why we love em:D You don't go around saying zombies are advanced city builders, however you can go around saying they are incredibly awesome as they eat your brain and you become one of em... Its awesome to watch them go wild. Also if they are going to be in the game you might just as well make them a playable minor faction like a minigame:rolleyes:

welshie
04-07-2010, 11:06 AM
Nada the only way i see to add zombies in DoF without changing everything, and what has already been suggested. Get a necromancer type random event, I.e a necomancer appears/a child from one of your vilages devolps necomancer skills, and starts turning that village. eventualy one person or a group will manage to flee to your castle and warn you, you can:
1. Help the villages and at the cost of a few soilders, stop it at the cause.
2. Leave the villagers to themselves and carry on, but doing this can eaither make the situation worse and they now spread to other villages and now have a small force marching on your castle.
3. The other situation being leaving the villagers and another lord of a nearby castle stop the growing threat or the threat just dies down when a villager gets a lucky arrow/stab to the necromancer.

If your castle manages to lose against the undead, it should be like when you lose a ingame battle against other races, but bascily the undead die because of starvation and some people manage to hide long enough to survive. Or they clear off to another castle with there overwhelming numbers now they can take on the bigger/better players.

blackfang
04-07-2010, 01:19 PM
that would just be weird. We need TO CONTROL the undeads:mad: Without it there is no need...

crispyg29
04-08-2010, 10:21 AM
ya i dont see how they could add the undead into this game and keep it good because when you stop and think about it how could the undead get more people they would have to kill people and make them undead

blackfang
04-08-2010, 10:40 AM
ya i dont see how they could add the undead into this game and keep it good because when you stop and think about it how could the undead get more people they would have to kill people and make them undead

And that is the WHOLE point in playing undeads:mad:

Negthareas
04-08-2010, 10:54 AM
Ok - basically, throughout the whole undead debate, there have been 2 main ideas:

Have the undead as their own race [meaning that the undead themselves are not the race but controlled by the race]

Or have the undead be a random event.

Since the existence of the undead is unlikely in any event, at least from what I have felt from the Devs, who also have the dragons and dwarves to work on. Ithink that those of us that want there to be an undead in ANY form had better decide which option we want and push together for that option. Otherwise, I don't think there will be any undead at all, and both sides of this debate will lose.

welshie
04-08-2010, 11:45 AM
For me it has to be random event.

To make the undead race into a playable faction will take alot of work and headaches, how will an undead city grow when your workers/forces are mainly brainless things. You have to make things like buildings, see if or not you want them brainless idiots sleeping in a house, which brings on a whole other subject like making a house would require a controller person, like a task master to make sure they do the job and that right. So not only do you have to micro manage your grunts you also have to make sure you have enough people to controll them grunts so they dont wonder off into the forest and die.

Actualy thinking of it, the undead race does pretty much sound fun a self controlling, as the pop shouldnt be how many zombies you have but how many people you have to controll them. :) <- genius

Puppeteer
04-08-2010, 03:15 PM
how will an undead city grow when your workers/forces are mainly brainless things
The whole idea of the 'brainless' undead is that they're drones; they do the bidding of their creator. Hence they're exactly the same as your standard grunts of any other race, except that they'd NEVER disobey an order - retreat would be only an order, and would not be a manoeuvre resulting from panic. So it's not that difficult.

blackfang
04-09-2010, 06:49 AM
For me it has to be random event.

To make the undead race into a playable faction will take alot of work and headaches,how will an undead city grow when your workers/forces are mainly brainless things. You have to make things like buildings, see if or not you want them brainless idiots sleeping in a house, which brings on a whole other subject like making a house would require a controller person, like a task master to make sure they do the job and that right. So not only do you have to micro manage your grunts you also have to make sure you have enough people to controll them grunts so they dont wonder off into the forest and die.

Actualy thinking of it, the undead race does pretty much sound fun a self controlling, as the pop shouldnt be how many zombies you have but how many people you have to controll them. :) <- genius

Just to put it simply, undeads can think for themselves. Look at wow they got players as undead however thats just a poor version of those. Also it won't be much headache just think of it, if this is a headache then i guess the other races were mindblasters... Think about it, it won't be worse then creating humans, just think of them like a different type of humans with or without brains are up to you... You can always use them as drones working perfectly for whoever controls them, that would be some kinda taskmaster. How about making the undead lvling be kinda different. Instead of a bunch of new equipment they can get more undeads at the same time:D Also if you really cant see the zombies get more people with other options then killing people then you have not seen enough zombie movies... Think about it, ever played prototype? There the zombies come out of organic buildings. A zombie movie i saw somewhere had zombs doing each other and creating children that grew up as zombs (this were a horror comedy thingie) You always have the faithful necromancer way, or you can make it so that every undead city is buildt on top of ancient ruins and that they raise friends from the dead under the ruins. The possibilities are endless, also undeads are among the greates builders you can get. One person controls them and everything is done in 1/10th the time of humans creating the same thing, however they NEED a overmind. They can also use organic buildings. Also undead don't need houses they need everything but houses. Their people don't need to relax however they might need some gathering places, or a keep or something along with smithies and other valuable stuff...

Undeads are perhaps the race you can toy around the most with of ALL races possible, you can create undeads of every type. Abominations, dragons, orcs, elves and lizards. The undead is the perfect all around that can cover anything you want them to. You can have the normal slow undead or you can have fast, you can have strong or you can have weak, you can have magical or viral, you can have mindless or smart undead, you can have spawned or turned, you can have necromancers or task masters or nothing at all. EVERYTHING is possible with undeads:D

The whole idea of the 'brainless' undead is that they're drones; they do the bidding of their creator. Hence they're exactly the same as your standard grunts of any other race, except that they'd NEVER disobey an order - retreat would be only an order, and would not be a manoeuvre resulting from panic. So it's not that difficult.

Yes and there is no wonder the puppeteer knows about the puppets:) Anyways the brainless ones are good and that but they lack something very standard for humans and other creatures yes... However that is filled in by an overmind or overlord. A taskmaster should also work, anyways brainless ones can also be very dangerous without orders. Their auto orders are normally "create more or die trying" or like they call it "Brrrraaaiiinnnnnnnsssss" that usually refers to zombies but normal undeads also got possibilities of that. Also they can appear anywhere without any prior notice surprising the village right before killing everybody... The undeds with brains however would try to get more far away from others.

otomotopia
04-09-2010, 06:58 AM
Personally, I think Undead should be a playable race, but as/in an expansion. At this point, the Devs should finish Dwarves first, as they are the ones that have confirmed mercenary units (I think you can buy deployables from them as well). Then the Dragons can take shape, and then the Undead at a later date. But I hope that the Undead can be put in as a race, and balanced. Fast moving corpses/hellhounds, slow moving monstrosities, necromancers with skulls atop their staffs, it would be scary as heck to see all that approaching your castle.

blackfang
04-09-2010, 07:03 AM
Personally, I think Undead should be a playable race, but as/in an expansion. At this point, the Devs should finish Dwarves first, as they are the ones that have confirmed mercenary units (I think you can buy deployables from them as well). Then the Dragons can take shape, and then the Undead at a later date. But I hope that the Undead can be put in as a race, and balanced. Fast moving corpses/hellhounds, slow moving monstrosities, necromancers with skulls atop their staffs, it would be scary as heck to see all that approaching your castle.

Don't forget if they approach their recruitment grounds;) You know the villages filled with women and children:D

Sharku
04-11-2010, 10:31 PM
For a game like DoF perhaps the Undead faction/civilization/race could be molded into something that would better suit the resource system already in place. For example, perhaps a society of humans, elves, or orcs takes too a fanatical worship of death, and through dark magics raises armies of the dead to fight and conquer opposing factions. Of course being still very much alive this faction would require the same resources, same as any other one. Their ultimate goal could be corrupting the world, turning it into darkness and what not. Perhaps to make the whole "living controlling the undead" aspect a little more prominent is that undead units can only be summoned through necromancers of certain types. This could add a little more variation to game play as well.

DarkMaster
04-12-2010, 04:09 AM
I'm all for undead if they're "necromancer summons massive, endless horde of zombies" type thing, but not if there's werewolves, vampires, ghost, that sort of thing.

blackfang
04-12-2010, 02:09 PM
pfff werewolves were never undeads, they are just genetically impaired mutants. And vampires are people overdosed on caffeine that turned to blood sucking. Just freaks nothing remotely close to undead in awesomeness, Kill the heretics, burn the mutants, purge the uncool undeads!

TheMessengerOfDeath
08-25-2010, 12:45 AM
The race labeled "Undead" has never been an interesting race in my honest opinion. If we look to other games for a reference to their "superiority" if you will, they are only effective in large swarms (much like the zerg in starcraft). In many other games they didn't receive any ability that would make them more powerful than others. There are several old games that can be used as an example here that show that even when Undead were a playable race, they were hardly ever seen cause they were vastly inferior to the other choices available. The only way the undead could be a viable race is if they were balanced in order to keep up with the other choices.

That's my two cents on the subject....

Pilgrim
08-26-2010, 05:41 AM
strange two cents. There arent many RTS with online communities and an undead faction surely.
The obvious example would be warcraft III and it's expantion, with a reupuation for excellent ballance.

blackfang
08-26-2010, 07:33 AM
strange two cents. There arent many RTS with online communities and an undead faction surely.
The obvious example would be warcraft III and it's expantion, with a reupuation for excellent ballance.

If you want a game with excellent balance you should try pixel legions (http://armorgames.com/play/5978/pixel-legions) Every unit is balanced its just the way you use them. The game does not need a total balance where swordsman kill archer and archer kill spearmen and spearmen kill horsemen and horsemen kill swordsmen. I want a game where a special team of units can easily kill another. No balance needed:D Ok some balance needed, no one unit rampage like rp in star craft 2:(

Zackreaver
12-06-2010, 10:13 AM
Personally, In a sense I get what the OP was going at, though personally I like having undead in a fantasy sense.

If undead should be a playable race, yeah they shouldn't be called undead, they should be called after the race of their masters. Undead can't exist without the fabled necromancer, and who says the necromancer has to be undead.

Whatever the case, whatever race plays the role of the necromancers, I think to keep the theme of the "Living dead as an army" in an rts setting should be like this. Necromancers fight in an army, having 1 minion per necromancer, when enemies are slain, the necromancers gain the essence of death from the kill to summon additional undead soldiers. However the undead should be like puppets, only existing so long as their masters command them. A role with the necromancers could be that if they die, all of the minions they summoned immediately collapse. That way a player who commands the necromancers can have their minions fight an army, in turn killing and getting reinforcements. However if their enemy manages to break past their front lines and reach the necromancers, the threat of a growing army is diminished as the necromancers are fragile on their own.

I think if "Necromancers" every get put in as either part of a faction, race, or whatever to include undead (being zombies, skeletons, ghosts, or whatever) they should play the roles of puppeteers, simply reanimating that which no longer has life, similar to how conjurers would create golems of different elements, necromancers create their minions with the dead bodies of their enemies. They use it as a fear tactic, knowing that the enemy might lose their morale having to fight an animated corpse of their fallen comrad.

Corcscrew
12-08-2010, 08:32 PM
I have absolutely no problem with the undead being their own "race" or "faction" as long as they make the zombies of different races rather than merely humans who have become undead. World of Warcraft bugged me in that manner. You'd think you would see orc zombies, elven zombies, dwarf zombies, etc...

Nathikal
12-08-2010, 09:46 PM
In regards to this, the biggest thing that I agree on is the head sentient honcho. A vampire lord, or a great lich lord, or a mighty necromancer. All are fair game, yes? Yes.

As to the faction itself, it could be more along the lines of the Baelnorn (Baenlorn?) from D&D Forgotten Realms. If I butchered that word, or if I am thinking of the wrong thing, let me clarify: the Baelnorn that I'm thinking of are the great and powerful magicians who gave their life force to study magic eternally. Rather than being an outright lich (which has a fairly evil connotation to it) they are spellcasters who just wanted to live forever and study.

Yet someone could say, "Hey! I wanna rule the world."

This opens up the possibility of a faction which has very few natural units, but the ability to raise other units from the dead. The natural units could be the leader-types: Baelnorn, vampires, etc. The very few, rather powerful, sentient leaders. Following them could be those who have 'willingly' converted to undeath to serve and thus retain a measure of consciousness, and then the reanimated.

Reanimated could run the gamot (sp?) from summoned and bound souls to great abberations.

On the other hand...

It could be that of all the races, the undead are the most magical. They have the fewest units (perhaps two) but those units are all casters. If they want to expand their reign, they'd have to do it through very small conquests - and they can only expand their army by either raising the graveyards to their service, or by animating the dead from a battle.

Certain spells could be used to raise certain undead beings, creating a race that is based around a central core of powerful casters with numerous expendable trash. Further, spells could be used that require a living sacrifice, making the actually useful and expensive units be capable of use on the short term, instead of the long.

Some examples of beings could be...

Ascendant: The leader. The head mage of any Ascended Cell.
Ascended Council: The X Vampires who function as the highest unit.
Ascended Deliverer: The lesser, more expendable casters. Your chief lambs to the slaughter.

Spells to raise the dead could be...

Curse of Bones: Curses all enemies, giving a chance at causing a small amount of damage every few seconds. When a unit dies under the effects of this curse, they have a chance at rising as a weak Skeleton Soldier. Sacrificing increases the duration by X seconds and the chance of units rising by Y%

Curse of Soul: Curses a group of enemies, weakening morale and reducing parameters. Enemies who die under this curse have a chance to be raised as a Vengeful Soul, which can launch weak ranged attacks. Each sacrifice increases the area of effect by X%

Curse of Flesh: Curses a single enemy, causing damage initially and then causing more damage until the unit dies. Upon death, the curse spreads to 1 nearby enemy. Units who die under Curse of Flesh cannot be raised. Every 2 sacrifices increases the number of additional units affected after each death by 1.

Word of Summoning: Golem: Terminates all curses in the target area and erases each dead body, binding them into a Death Golem. The Golem begins with (Normal stats) and gains additional power based on the number of corpses. Each sacrifice increases the power of the golem by 1%.

Word of Summoning: Death: Terminates all curses in the target area and releases a shockwave from the caster, damaging all nearby allied units. The target area is then struck with a wave of black magic, which has a % chance to kill each affected unit. For every allied unit that dies from the shockwave, the % increases.

Something to that effect. They have to kill to gain power, but since it takes time to make new units, their spells are counter-effective when spammed, but are necessary to expand.

Sacrifices must be made!

Emrus
12-10-2010, 02:40 AM
Certain spells could be used to raise certain undead beings, creating a race that is based around a central core of powerful casters with numerous expendable trash. Further, spells could be used that require a living sacrifice, making the actually useful and expensive units be capable of use on the short term, instead of the long.

Spells to raise the dead could be...

Curse of Bones: Curses all enemies, giving a chance at causing a small amount of damage every few seconds. When a unit dies under the effects of this curse, they have a chance at rising as a weak Skeleton Soldier. Sacrificing increases the duration by X seconds and the chance of units rising by Y%

Curse of Soul: Curses a group of enemies, weakening morale and reducing parameters. Enemies who die under this curse have a chance to be raised as a Vengeful Soul, which can launch weak ranged attacks. Each sacrifice increases the area of effect by X%

Curse of Flesh: Curses a single enemy, causing damage initially and then causing more damage until the unit dies. Upon death, the curse spreads to 1 nearby enemy. Units who die under Curse of Flesh cannot be raised. Every 2 sacrifices increases the number of additional units affected after each death by 1.

Word of Summoning: Golem: Terminates all curses in the target area and erases each dead body, binding them into a Death Golem. The Golem begins with (Normal stats) and gains additional power based on the number of corpses. Each sacrifice increases the power of the golem by 1%.

Word of Summoning: Death: Terminates all curses in the target area and releases a shockwave from the caster, damaging all nearby allied units. The target area is then struck with a wave of black magic, which has a % chance to kill each affected unit. For every allied unit that dies from the shockwave, the % increases.

Something to that effect. They have to kill to gain power, but since it takes time to make new units, their spells are counter-effective when spammed, but are necessary to expand.

Sacrifices must be made!


I wonder where the balancing would go if I were to play a dead-raising undead race :D I mean, imagina hords of zombie and skeletons attacking your city and the hero/primary unit raising them every now and then. wow lol Pro and unbeatable that wouldn't get? unless the current races get some boost against undeads.

Also since nothing is mentioned i assume that undeads if raising their troops would raise them from the dead units of the enemy army? if yes, what would be the situation in case both the attacker and the attacked person are undeads?


ummm.. this is getting interesting :D

Nathikal
12-10-2010, 08:20 PM
Insofar as I see it, an undead race would have a central core of powerful units - the casters, necromancers, liches, etc. - with a heavy reliance on garbage troops.

because of their heavy dependence on a few central core units, undead armies would be fewer than others. And because of their dependence on what are ultimately more slowly moving units, they would in general be slow. Undead armies are also made up almost entirely of garbage troops, and have a very high reliance on magic for victory.

Thus, their power comes from a zerg rush. A single well-placed spell or army could probably shut them down fairly easily, unless the casters of the undead army limit opposing magic or master enough counterspells. Undead battles would often swing between the 'waves crashing upon the shore' sort of tactics, versus a more reserved tactic which relies on magic to raise more servants.

They'd be fairly hard to play, actually.

Nimiria
12-10-2010, 08:27 PM
I would love it to see an undead race here.

I really like the style of skeleton warrios in light armor and with differend weapons etc.

Could be an interesting alternative to the "normal" races.

Winterwolf00
12-15-2010, 12:47 AM
I think undead should be just a random event and be an enemy of player, but should later on be added as a playable race. Allow people the opportunity to fight these creatures and once they've become familiar with them and have a back story, add them as a playable race.

Espadachim
12-15-2010, 03:05 PM
I think that would be too Warcraft 3-ish to add undead. They won't make any sense, UNLESS there's lore involved (that is, appearing in a campaign, or something to that effect).

cybroxis
12-15-2010, 07:01 PM
Well hey. I have a an idea for the undead, if you'll spare me a moment's notice:
Maybe the undead can be a sort of complement to a necromancer. Like a dual race of necromancers that have an undead familiar of the opposite gender, but not all gross and Frankenstein-like, yet looking unnatural to any but the necromancers, who are themselves of an undisclosed race. Their whole part in the story could be as a part of a strange event from another faraway place, and as hunted "monsters", they only want to be understood and left alone. I move that these undead "familiars" be more like vampire-like things, but not needing blood. Instead, they can only survive when their masters are living, and vice versa, with each having a loyalty to the other. Then there could be the usual hordes of zombies and so forth. But again, I would add something to the story - instead of being mindless, they too will be imbued with a soul (different from that of the deceased), however will not be bonded to a necromancer partner - they will be the "people" of these cities. Of course, they are quite industrious, not needing sleep or food, but will decay without the proper medicine, such is the nature of their condition - it costs certain materials for the necromancers to purchase (living and undead in harmony), so there is the balance. These undead are not evil, mindless monsters, but people - stronger, faster, and weaker dead people. I once made a story similar to this back at dofsource.com, I think.

Maybe I'm just doing this because it's fun to write, but if you don't have any other idea as to how to implement them without turning the game into Left 4 Dead or Warcraft 3, I hope I opened up an alternative. :D

cybroxis
12-17-2010, 05:33 PM
just want to bump the thread up in case no one looked at my suggestion - i worked hard, think it's a good idea, and will remove this bump when someone responds :P

darkheart
12-25-2010, 06:32 PM
just as long as its balanced class

Manasky
01-19-2011, 08:37 AM
The more factions the better in my opinion, as long as it's not crazy unbalanced, but it seems like Reverie is taking that matter seriously! :)

Snowyjoe
01-19-2011, 10:13 AM
How about a faction that's made up of magical giant insects :)

Lol, but seriously it's up to the developer what kind of faction they want to add into their world. I don't mind what kind of faction that add in, as long as it fits in with the lore and gaming world I'm fine.

Also if it's balanced :)

cryonso
01-19-2011, 11:31 AM
I agree whit you and i would not like having undead or zombies in this game.

olane123
01-19-2011, 12:27 PM
Surely the heroes of might and magic series has shown the undead work, i know heroes 5 and warcraft 3 kinda wrecked the whole feel of it but bone dragons and liches are the staple diet of any mythical game and besides i like the thought of decayed legions besieging my castle.

or they could be brought in as a halloween special :D

DirtEaterr
01-20-2011, 08:01 AM
Hmm. I don't mind undead. Let ppl chouse what they like to play with!

Kashindo
01-20-2011, 08:26 AM
I'd like to see undead, i think they really match with the fantsy genre or have you ever seen walking dead in the real life? :D

Quarok
01-20-2011, 08:41 AM
what about lizardmen? Like the sahuagin from Forgotten Realms or Lizardmen from Warhammer. Using anthropomorphized dinosaurs was an inspired choice by Games Workshop. Also, something that definitely should be implemented with undead that you don't see enough of is the ridiculous variety in troop type that should be available to them. Undead dragons, undead elves, undead humans, undead orcs - technically you should bring in a new set of troops with every other race, if you open up the door to the undead

SonicMonkey
01-20-2011, 11:25 AM
Lizardmen would be cool. I'm not crazy on the undead....I'd much rather prefer something like demons / imps etc.

Thunderborn
01-20-2011, 12:03 PM
WOW OMG do not even THINK to forever exclude the undead as potential Empire. There is just way to much story content that you can draw up. As far as the cheap horror genre thing well that is just a style that they put out and we would just have to come up with a REALLY cool Undead based Empire. The troops that you can actually draw ideas is such a big pool that I wouldnt want them shut out. I am sure someone can create a fun list of every undead they ever heard of. Even if it is just a NPC kingdom not player controlled.

IF you were to make it a player kingdom why not do something like. You are 1 of 7 Vampire Lords. Hushed stories of The Seven have trickled down from the Far Lands into the Midlands. Stories about the terrors forced upon their kingdoms and whispered gossip about a growing army of undead. You find it amusing to be amongst this cattle listening to thier so called fairy tales when you know all that is whispered and more is true. You are One of the Seven and our armies are coming.

I mean thats just ranting drivel but you get my point never rule out something with potential. The 7 vampire lords could have inner fighting too so maybe with a storyline you would have to fight your brethern first to obtain your armies.

shrubhead
01-20-2011, 01:10 PM
Undead would be cool, but I can see it being a zerg race and overplayed so despite my love of shambling corpses and skeletons I agree.

Chaoticuss
01-20-2011, 01:12 PM
I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games :D

Well I hope that they mix it up and put in something unique other than what we have seen already in many many rts games.

Thunderborn
01-20-2011, 01:15 PM
Any race can be a zerg race if its built that way so I wouldnt ban them on that issue. That is more about how the developer makes them and how each racee interacts and goes against each other. I mean lets ZERG with DRAGONS :P

Rycon
01-20-2011, 03:50 PM
I don't mind the undead but i prefer if they would make a dwarf race :)

Still i think the undead do fit very well in the fantasy genre

DarkLord7854
01-20-2011, 06:38 PM
The undead are generally pretty prominent in fantasy works. Not so much zombies, but walking skeletons and ghosts yes. Bone dragons are also quite cool :p

Wyzak
01-20-2011, 11:33 PM
Lol, I just suggested adding undead as a race on another post. I agree that zombies are a bit bleh, but they are usually very low ranking undead (cannon fodder). I just think that another traditionally evil race should be added to compensate for elves and humans. I am not really set on undead.

Lazoraz
01-21-2011, 12:25 AM
I don't think they should add in Undead as a playable race, however there should be like random events sorta deal, like a EXTREME rare occasion there could be a hellspawn thing going on, and players would have to work together to wipe them out.

furanlost
01-21-2011, 10:19 PM
I wouldn't really mind if they added the undead in as a pc or npc race. Though how they recruit would interest me a lot. Like they can only grow their armies by taking the corpses of fallen pc or npc units.

vonsteyr
01-21-2011, 11:11 PM
I think the undead are a very interesting race (just look at Age of Wonders or the Heroes of Might and Magic series), but I don't think it'd be possible to balance them properly without making huge concessions to them as an interesting faction.

Most races will have similar goals: Build up cities, levy armies, and capture their enemy cities. Necromancers and the undead, on the other hand, have no use for cities. They'd just summon wave after wave of skeletons. They'd make an interesting NPC mob, but the undead are definitely more of a "summon creature" than a "workable race".

I'm not saying its impossible to balance them, but I think they'd be better suited here (as in "in this game") to secondary roles as fodder (or perhaps if you can summon skeletal dragons then tanks) that evil wizarding heroes throw at their enemy rather than a standalone faction.

Rhino
01-22-2011, 12:44 AM
I agree, the idea of an undead faction would be kind of stupid. I mean honestly, how on earth would a zombie be coordinated enough to build? Unless there are some sort of demon people or whatever although I still do not like that idea. I think the more conventional fantasy races should be added like dwarves or dark elves. I just believe that the idea of an undead faction would go against the storyline of the game.

Th3 Mastodon
01-22-2011, 08:32 AM
Undead faction is kinda stupid because it has nothing to do with the fantasy genera because it is horror. it would ma by work if there where units who could summone skeleton soldiers or something for a couple of second

joppe99999
01-22-2011, 10:59 AM
I don't realy think that an undead race would fit into the world.. Zombies are more for the games where you can shoot there heads of, then in an medieval game.. But a race with people who ride on dragons or use them as weapons sounds cool..

StormXLR
01-22-2011, 11:31 AM
True undead are great enemy to fight vs!
their strength lies in numbers ! for example group of 10 undead soldiers can be easily dispatched by 5 human footman or 1-2 human clerk/paladin.
undead should be ingame will be awesome to fight them as humans

cybroxis
02-01-2011, 04:24 PM
You guys don't seem to see the Undead as a viable civilization, but more as a Left 4 Dead/Warcraft 3 mindless horde style.
I would remind you of MY idea of a partnership between an undead and a _____ sorcerer, as a distinct 2-sided civilization, one protecting the other:

Well hey. I have a an idea for the undead, if you'll spare me a moment's notice:
Maybe the undead can be a sort of complement to a necromancer. Like a dual race of necromancers that have an undead familiar of the opposite gender, but not all gross and Frankenstein-like, yet looking unnatural to any but the necromancers, who are themselves of an undisclosed race. Their whole part in the story could be as a part of a strange event from another faraway place, and as hunted "monsters", they only want to be understood and left alone. I move that these undead "familiars" be more like vampire-like things, but not needing blood. Instead, they can only survive when their masters are living, and vice versa, with each having a loyalty to the other. Then there could be the usual hordes of zombies and so forth. But again, I would add something to the story - instead of being mindless, they too will be imbued with a soul (different from that of the deceased), however will not be bonded to a necromancer partner - they will be the "people" of these cities. Of course, they are quite industrious, not needing sleep or food, but will decay without the proper medicine, such is the nature of their condition - it costs certain materials for the necromancers to purchase (living and undead in harmony), so there is the balance. These undead are not evil, mindless monsters, but people - stronger, faster, and weaker dead people. I once made a story similar to this back at dofsource.com, I think.

Maybe I'm just doing this because it's fun to write, but if you don't have any other idea as to how to implement them without turning the game into Left 4 Dead or Warcraft 3, I hope I opened up an alternative. Anyway, just adding to discussion, because it seems like everyone just skipped over me before :)

om3n
02-01-2011, 04:35 PM
"Don't include undead" is pretty vague and can be generalized in both directions. By that statement if it were taken literal could mean- no necromancers, demons, zombies/skeletons, abominations of nature, mutations, demonic magic etc the list could go on for a long time I'm sure. If there were to be some form of "undead race" were to be brought into play it wouldn't be a horde of zombies(i hope) that require no strategy as long as you have numbers. An Undead faction(undead being used for lack of a better term) could encompass many things and doesn't have to be frowned upon because "its in other games" It would just require care and some attention to detail and a clear plan on how it could successfully be worked into the balancing act; as well as lore. Without creating the need of 1000 undead nations. Everyone can be accommodated without having to destroy the game or leave certain lore out of the game because someone doesn't like it. Lets face it, since the early Warcraft I days Ive favored orcs, and if i was to ask for content not to be included cause i think humans were stupid the game wouldn't get very far imo.

Corpsebloom
02-02-2011, 02:26 AM
How dare you? We must have undead! XD

Nothing like hoards of weak units swarming and overwhelming their prey. What else does that? Ratmen? *Shudder*

Wolverine80
02-02-2011, 02:42 PM
I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games :D



:) Lol we dont need them indeed....

kessevan
02-02-2011, 02:44 PM
I would like undead. Something dark, shambling, and undeniably evil would nicely contrast the other races.

Lightchef
02-02-2011, 04:02 PM
Would be cool we a dwarf race that lived in the mountins?

om3n
02-02-2011, 04:04 PM
Would be cool we a dwarf race that lived in the mountins?

They were talking about having that in a future content release/expansion :) I hope we can have more then one kingdom on account! lol

Lightchef
02-02-2011, 04:12 PM
Ya! But not more then 3 so you don't have to much power if you get 3 large citys. Do you konw how many players there are going to be per server?

Froody42
02-02-2011, 06:59 PM
I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games :D
While not specifically zombies in the classical sense, the idea of undead in fantasy was, like so many things, used by Tolkien. Middle-Earth not only had the Army of the Dead, but also Barrow-Wights, the Ringwraiths and other fell spirits of various sorts.

Just saying, undead don't have to be exclusively cheap horror zombies :P

nauro
02-03-2011, 11:10 AM
I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games :D

Zombies are not part of the cheap horror genre. They actually originated in Haitian folklore. Humans have always hada fascination with trying to bring back the dead so I wouldn't necessarily put it into a horror genre. A zombie by itself isn't much of a threat it's when they amass into large groups that they become troublesome. I don't think zombies should be a playable race or anything but in the game as a mob/monster sure why not?

ZyndromZ
02-03-2011, 01:20 PM
Undeads would be cool, but nah i don't think it will fit in this game..?

aaa6660
02-05-2011, 10:15 AM
id say that they have no undead races but some kind of antagonist race , later on but eventually so it could be a cool story addition maybe 3 bad 3 good?

Raulaun
02-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Undead simply work in any fantasy theme, and i'm sure that reverie world will come up with a good, unique backstory that sets them apart from those undead factions from other genres.

master0p
02-05-2011, 04:10 PM
Yeah i would love to see an undead faction in the future.
I am not gonna play undead probably but i would LOVE to fight against them !

Wolfpack
02-05-2011, 05:37 PM
It might be nice as like a special campaign, to stop the un ending hordes of the undead with friends.

Hawk
02-06-2011, 04:16 PM
i think Undead work fine,not so much zombies but skeletons

jasont21
02-08-2011, 01:01 PM
really dont think the undead would have a good role in this game. think it would ruin it imo. too many games are gonig down the zombie route at the mo, and its getting a tad tiresome.
leave them out i say.

also... i dont get how dragons will be a possible race... how does a dragon build a house and/or a wall...

Crosland
02-08-2011, 01:12 PM
Undead faction sounds nice, gogogo

Ezekiel
02-08-2011, 01:21 PM
I'd be happy to see an undead faction come... As previously stated undead factions do fit into fantasy games really well, and usually bring a fun and unique play style.

Plus the more factions the more variabilty in who and where you will be fighting, so let em come.

Relee
02-11-2011, 04:01 PM
I like undead hordes, but that's not really a civilization thing. Usually it's one guy, a necromancer or a vampire or a lich who has a big army. There aren't peasant zombies growing crops.

MikeDitka
02-12-2011, 02:59 PM
undead have been in most fantasy games ever made. they fit perfectly

BloodOfDeath
02-16-2011, 12:13 AM
I wouldnt mind it at all :) I would love t o see some undead...though it wouldnt make sense...as you kill the other team you should be able to get more units! lol

Sarkata
02-17-2011, 09:08 PM
As an entire race, I agree the Undead wouldn't make sense, but I could see them used in certain areas.

Lord Shadow
02-19-2011, 05:07 PM
Undeads are perhaps the race you can toy around the most with of ALL races possible, you can create undeads of every type. Abominations, dragons, orcs, elves and lizards. The undead is the perfect all around that can cover anything you want them to. You can have the normal slow undead or you can have fast, you can have strong or you can have weak, you can have magical or viral, you can have mindless or smart undead, you can have spawned or turned, you can have necromancers or task masters or nothing at all. EVERYTHING is possible with undeads:D


I agree completely.. :D :D

Dunbarclas
02-19-2011, 11:44 PM
I honestly hope that there will be an undead race because you need some sort of evil necromancy theme to fantasy games. Am I right?! :confused:

cableslice
02-22-2011, 01:04 PM
Undead are suppose to be mindless bloodthirsty creatures. To have them as playable race, means they would be thinking by themselves. Now, if there was a race that could control the undead as their minions...that might be a different story.

Lord Shadow
02-22-2011, 04:01 PM
For there to be undead there had to be someone to raise the undead.. aka a necro.. the dark magical version of a general..

Lanolin
02-23-2011, 12:08 AM
A fantasy world without Undead necromancy? I call shenanigans. Undead creatures that linger in the dark arts is almost a necessity in a fantasy setting.

P_J_B
02-23-2011, 03:20 PM
http://gallery.techarena.in/data/1/Wrath_of_the_Lich_King.jpg


@ pilgrim: your argument is now void.

Sauron_9Gods9_Ldr
02-23-2011, 05:22 PM
What do you mean Undead shouldn't be included? There a bad ass race? i mean its really simple to create the unit types for swordsmen just spawn a random units that's dead that's either elf, orc, human or dragon? its not that hard. Undead doesn't mean it has to be from any race anyways? Since when could u randomly just take everyone's crap. you guys are simply over thinking this. If you have ever played a fantasy game like hero's you would understand why undead should be included. There one of those "Evil" races that many like to be. As for lizard-men that be cool i saw something like that in Hero's. As for the Zerg thing. In all games there going to be a race that has the spamming units, not everything is like starcraft either just because something is similar does not mean someone like blizzard created the trend. As for the point. I think this game will be incomplete with out undead and if there really not gonna be added its not a true medieval fantasy gene. I mean your not just outlawing undead your outlawing tons of spell ideas and great story's that could be made :/

wiredpenguin
02-24-2011, 01:06 AM
I am a fan of the Undead in all their many forms. I played the Fallen in Warcraft 3 and in my brief stint with WoW as well. I enjoy a good zombie or banshee filled crypt or graveyard as much as the next adventurer and one of the best gaming sessions of AD&D I had was an all-nighter where our group went up against a Dracolich and his undead legion.

That being said, I sometimes prefer them as a support faction rather than a stand-alone one and there are other races I would like to see included instead.

Dolas
02-24-2011, 08:34 AM
That being said, I sometimes prefer them as a support faction rather than a stand-alone one and there are other races I would like to see included instead.

Like Dragons :P I mean seriously how many games have their been that lets you be a dragon race? I know Warcraft 3 lets you make dragons in some of the races, but having a stand alone race of dragonkin would be awesome!

Lord Revan
02-25-2011, 02:58 AM
To indulge it not a current of the zombie. These are skeletons, the zombie, necromancers... All inhabitants of the bottom world. But as race they don't look. In Warcraft not system classical system Fentezi. There orks not as malicious race and as average. And if to put orks and to indulge in game it will turn out dullishly. Orks also will indulge are very similar on style. Black fortresses и.т.д. If to add race to indulge that under race.

P_J_B
02-25-2011, 05:37 PM
To indulge it not a current of the zombie. These are skeletons, the zombie, necromancers... All inhabitants of the bottom world. But as race they don't look. In Warcraft not system classical system Fentezi. There orks not as malicious race and as average. And if to put orks and to indulge in game it will turn out dullishly. Orks also will indulge are very similar on style. Black fortresses и.т.д. If to add race to indulge that under race.

you might wanna do some work on your english.

Revenger571
02-25-2011, 05:49 PM
I personally wouldn't mind if there was a undead race ;)

TheTower
02-27-2011, 01:44 AM
An undead "race" could exist. Or an organised "group", rather. Whereas humans, elves or orcs are united by traditions and common goals, The Undead are united by common agenda only (such as hatred of the living, for various reasons). So, they can exist.

P_J_B
02-27-2011, 11:58 AM
i agree.

it would make sense if their units were a conglomeration of undead forms of units from every other race. For example: humans have foot soldiers, undead have skeletal foot soldiers or ghouls. Orcs have ogres, undead have abominations, elves have archers, undead have skeletal archers or necromancer-warriors.

Knockroe
02-27-2011, 01:04 PM
I would love the idea of undead as i believe they are the foundation corner stone of evil in any fantasy genre

lastchancer
02-27-2011, 06:32 PM
I for one would love an undead race in the game if it ever appeared. They have always been my favourite fantasy race

Polluxo
02-27-2011, 09:15 PM
Elves are quite honestly more fearful than what any undead race could hope to accomplish. Those pointy ears, keen sense of intelligence, and swirly shoes, we should all be shooting horrors in a game called Left 4 Elves.

wiredpenguin
02-28-2011, 02:36 AM
Like Dragons :P I mean seriously how many games have their been that lets you be a dragon race? I know Warcraft 3 lets you make dragons in some of the races, but having a stand alone race of dragonkin would be awesome!

Honestly, I don't care for dragons as a player race in most games; I think they lose some of there awe-inspiring grandeur. In my opinion dragons should be one of the most frightening creatures you encounter and I think they are too powerful to be player characters without diminishing their abilities for game balance (or you're playing in a setting where the other races are of an equal power level). Though I must admit, having a flight of them reign fiery terror down on the castle you are laying siege to would be pretty awesome. :)

DioMorte
02-28-2011, 03:27 AM
But we must say that the zombies are part of a fantasy world all western games as worhammer prove it!! I spent so much time to paint!hihihihihihi

DioMorte
02-28-2011, 03:47 AM
I totally agree and as I have already posted, from literature to great games in that box then did all on your beloved PC!! So do not diprezzo dragons elves or orcs, but there are also zombies in our fantasy world!;)

Hety
02-28-2011, 10:23 AM
Zombies should be cannon fodder, not a race. Same applies to sceletons, lickes, vampires and all that undead nonsense.

Puppeteer
02-28-2011, 11:42 AM
Honestly, I don't care for dragons as a player race in most games; I think they lose some of there awe-inspiring grandeur. In my opinion dragons should be one of the most frightening creatures you encounter and I think they are too powerful to be player characters without diminishing their abilities for game balance (or you're playing in a setting where the other races are of an equal power level). Though I must admit, having a flight of them reign fiery terror down on the castle you are laying siege to would be pretty awesome. :)

Except Reverie being Reverie, they thought about this beforehand and so the original (and future... :cool: ) Dragon race had many, many units, all different. Fire-breathing-flying-titanic-dragons on a monstrous scale were few, but still incredibly powerful.

Polluxo
02-28-2011, 12:09 PM
How would a race of dragons build things? I always assumed their structural building mechanisms were lacking.

Puppeteer
02-28-2011, 12:14 PM
How would a race of dragons build things? I always assumed their structural building mechanisms were lacking.

Their normal units aren't the typical dragons - they're more reptilian and humanoid. Well, as far as I can remember.

AlphaReaper
02-28-2011, 02:56 PM
Honestly, I don't care for dragons as a player race in most games; I think they lose some of there awe-inspiring grandeur. In my opinion dragons should be one of the most frightening creatures you encounter and I think they are too powerful to be player characters without diminishing their abilities for game balance (or you're playing in a setting where the other races are of an equal power level). Though I must admit, having a flight of them reign fiery terror down on the castle you are laying siege to would be pretty awesome. :)

If we are doing Dragonkin we might as well dust off the D&D books and bust out all the races:p But as for the overall question: as long as we have hero type characters to control them I think undead races would be cool!

P_J_B
03-01-2011, 06:06 PM
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061210081443/wowwiki/images/8/8d/Dragonkin.jpg

dragon kin.

that is all.

obama6493
03-02-2011, 03:42 AM
Well the undeads are perfect if they are correct, like for instance the undead are not all evil. And the brain eaters can be the backbone eating the half dead that the main army of skeletons took down. Undeads could be very magic based and no real power magic but lots of revival and creation spells:D Also the undeads might even bring fear to players. I mean a good army of undeads should be able to continue onwards forever if played correctly but their armies are normally weak. Also undeads are the most awesome thing possible to use in a game!!! nothing can beat them!!! So if you ever need a tester for it i would HAPPILY volunteer:D Undeads are the most awesome creatures on any game possible, tough i dont like the ghost part from lotr. But every other undead is AWESOME!!!

tbh i dont realy think that this side has any evil sides. As they all have there own thing. Orcs are stong yet slightly lacking on the intelect but are not all evil. Men are just the jack of all trades master of none, which can be evil if it wanted. and elves nature loving but rather 'up there own backside' as it were. all 3 races could be evil and all 3 could be good so it would be best to get the point of good and evil races out of yer head, because ultimatly you choose whos good and evil. the way i see it Orcs have poor land all they want is somewhere where it is an easier life style, humans just want to expand and elves want to keep there society intact yet all races must do evil things to get them this but thjey can do good things to




________________
Watch TV Online (http://www.tvonlinewatch.com/)

nord
03-18-2011, 11:35 AM
I don't like zombies either

cj8844
03-21-2011, 10:06 AM
I don't know who it was that originally decided that zombies were part of the fantasy genre, but I know they were wrong.
They are part of the cheap horror genre. Please dont mix like other games :D

Need to keep originality and stay away from the zombie bandwagon for sure!!

Griegor Mcvennor
03-21-2011, 02:34 PM
There problem I see is not to say if Undead belong in the game or not. Obviously the developers can make the game any how they see fit. The problem I see is that for them to be truly undead in the spirit of the fantasy genre, it would be unbalanced against the core features of unit creation in this game.

How do you balance undead? They don't cost food, gold , or wood. They could be mass produced storm troops with no real drawback. Unless you add some sort of priest unit to each race that can decimate large groups of undead then it's going to be a major balance issue. It will be way too easy to make large armies for Undead Players.

Now, that being said I could see undead as being a spoiler factions. Make a DLC expansion where they add in raiding factions and undead factions that have no real castle or kingdom. Instead those player's job is to roam the make enlarging their armies and trying to raid/devestate other player castles and armies that they run into.

You wouldn't say that one particular mode is more fun over the other (raiding vs empire building) but it gives players somthing else to do when they don't want to run an empire.

obama5493
03-23-2011, 03:23 AM
well, i think of myself as an evil player that is why i choose elves as the worst. That and their... special way with manners and walking and talking. They seem kinda not totally aware of their sexual alignment:o so they are currently at the bottom of my list since i prefer evil over feminism, not that i have anything against them because i do not. i just prefer the evil races:D

A race of giant pink rabbits wouldn't fit either, but it is impossible to explain why they look fine in pokemon but not here. Mixing genres just often looks wrong and ruins the effect.





_________________
cheat codes (http://dailycheatcodes.com/)
game cheat codes (http://dailycheatcodes.com/)

awrington
03-23-2011, 04:58 PM
Here's my take on why undead just as they are generally wouldn't fit. First off, they are a combination of other races just dead... Err... Undead, this might lead to them having too many of other races specalties or whatnot. Secondly, undead feed off other races and never really can grow in strength isolated (I guess in this game neither can the other races really but I think you know what I mean). Third of all, undead are generally unorganized and led by a prime survival type directive unless led by like an overmind or somthing but even then I think they just mass and never build cities, just in an organized mannor. But afterall this is all my opinion different games/shows deviate on what each races are like and I'm sure the creators could, if they wanted to, make the undead race fit in the game. All I'm trying to say is I would personally not like to see undead as a race so much as an all threatening npc horde or somthing along that line.

Azrael
03-28-2011, 08:55 PM
Undead are so much in fantasy genere, the idea of necromancers appears in a lot of fanatasy books. I will love to see a undead faction.

Aryxas
04-13-2011, 09:42 AM
Undead are a horrible idea

Briggsby
04-20-2011, 04:29 AM
I don't know about them beinga horrible idea but I'm curious as to how they would fit (actually this applie to the dwarves and dragons being added as well). Because the men, elves and orcs have already filled the spaces of elves:turtling; men:balance; orcs: required aggression.
A race would have to be quite unique to fit into this without unbalancing stuff or just being plain unnecessary. Maybe something like 'becomes more adapted to the role the more it does it, so the more it fights the stronger the bonuses it gets for that, and the longer it goes without fighting the more it loses those bonuses and maybe gets some for defending' or something like that. Personally I actually really dislike the idea I just suggested but I hope my point was understandable :P

WarriorKing
04-20-2011, 07:53 PM
I would say no dragons or dwarves in the first place, hype not last forever. And theres enough out there of this tolkin stuff.

gerdon
04-21-2011, 03:02 PM
Undead have been around since the very first D&D so deal with it its in fantasy.

ki adi mundi
04-21-2011, 03:09 PM
wonder what dragon citys would look like big cave system i suppose and throne can be mountain of gold:D

WarriorKing
04-21-2011, 07:12 PM
wonder what dragon citys would look like big cave system i suppose and throne can be mountain of gold:D

Couldnt think of a race they rather mean units or characters of dragons for sure if it wouldn be all airforce they had to go for lizardsmen. Not discussible for balance.