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Pilgrim
01-12-2010, 04:35 AM
Although I'm guessing Dwarves are planned for the expantion. Why do developers always leave dwarves out? tt. First Warcraft iii, then battle for middle earth (the decent version) and now dawn of fantasy.

oh well, you can't have everything XD.. now i'm off to investigate why people keep talking about a race of dragons in this forum!

welshie
01-12-2010, 05:54 AM
because they dont have time to include them thats why dragons were dropped. im sure they could be added easily in a expansion as there are dwarven lands

Josh Warner
01-12-2010, 05:56 AM
Dwarf mercenaries as well as dragon mercenaries will likely exist, as for them being their own races only time will tell.

blackfang
01-12-2010, 06:15 AM
hopefully time will tell "yes":D

Konstantin Fomenko
01-12-2010, 09:37 AM
Actually we can now confirm that both Dwarfs and Dragon will be making an appearance, with explorable regions and some unit variety in the game.

To put this into perspective - you`ll be able to send your armies to the Dragon mountains realm, or march them through the Dwarven caves and mines - as well as fight again/recruit their units.

However until an unconfirmed expansion pack - you won`t be able to visit or siege their Strongholds, or to form a new town playing as Dwarfs or Dragons.

Jack
01-12-2010, 09:39 AM
in almost every game i have, dwarves are left behind and are not a front race.
they take a part in the story but are not playeble
it's just unfair :mad:

Pilgrim
01-12-2010, 09:55 AM
:p
I suppose if you have to axe either humans, elves, orcs or dwarves then the logical choice is dwarves. I just hope they are the next in line.

As for dragons.. weird but interesting idea. Is there anywhere I can read about the original concept of a playable race of dragons?

massenic
01-12-2010, 10:14 AM
To put this into perspective - you`ll be able to send your armies to the Dragon mountains realm, or march them through the Dwarven caves and mines - as well as fight again/recruit their units.

So the dwarf cities will be underground? I'm wondering how the fighting would work. Will you have to travel into the cave and will the game map than be loaded as a map completely inside the cave?

zach12wqasxz
01-12-2010, 01:41 PM
So the dwarf cities will be underground? I'm wondering how the fighting would work. Will you have to travel into the cave and will the game map than be loaded as a map completely inside the cave?

well, in a lot of books and fantasy tales, the dwarves had massive fortresses and cities built inside even bigger mountains, so im sure they would make the camera and stlye just like they would on top an ocean during a navy battle, or above a city in a siege

Kaznafein
01-12-2010, 01:56 PM
What other races can you confirm:cool: that arent actually playable. That will be making an apperance. I'm hoping for a playable dark elf race eventually not like the ones in WOW but an underground elf. This race would not be freindly with the above dwelling elves and have more of an evil based nature. As in dealing with the orcs but not realy trusting them and believing themselves to be above them.

Jack
01-12-2010, 01:58 PM
i think it would be even harder to get even inside the cave if it has strong defenses with traps and that kind
Dwarfes are also rich with mining so they have extra good mining skills with special mining buildings
but what do dwarves eat?:confused:

Josh Warner
01-12-2010, 02:06 PM
i think it would be even harder to get even inside the cave if it has strong defenses with traps and that kind
Dwarfes are also rich with mining so they have extra good mining skills with special mining buildings
but what do dwarves eat?:confused:

Why, dwarves don't eat, all they do is drink! Though seriously I imagine a very high protein mostly meat/fish diet. I mean they're omnivores of course, but it just doesn't very dwarfish to go around eating salads. And yeah I've seen a lot about mushrooms as well.


And kaznafein if you're going to talk about drow just say drow instead of dark elf :P

Kaznafein
01-12-2010, 02:06 PM
In books I've read they eat mushrooms, fish(underground rivers), and depedning on the fantasy realm a type of blind cow that lives underground. THose are a few things that I have read about them eating. Almost forgot in everyone book I've read they drink a ton of beer.

Puppeteer
01-12-2010, 03:23 PM
I'm hoping for a playable dark elf race eventually not like the ones in WOW but an underground elf. This race would not be freindly with the above dwelling elves and have more of an evil based nature.
As far as I'm aware Reverie is driving to steer clear of inherent morality to races - such morality impedes originality in campaigns, besides not making much sense. We've discussed Dark Elves before and concluded they'd be more than just renegade 'normal' Elves.

blackfang
01-12-2010, 03:52 PM
Make them a real sign of EVIL and DARKNESS, that way no one would mistake them for elves:D

zach12wqasxz
01-12-2010, 08:48 PM
drows should be a race that is going extinct in the DoF world, and make a few of the remaining ones left extremely powerful wizards that you can hire as mercanaries

nickson104
01-13-2010, 05:20 AM
Make them a real sign of EVIL and DARKNESS, that way no one would mistake them for elves:D

Ah but surely you would think that orcs are this, however they are not... Orcs just have a different kind of society, they are not evil, they are just different to the other races... Like the elves are not necessarily good, they just live a different style of life...

There is no such thing as good or bad, we have discussed this thoroughly on a previous thread, i think its in the 'Official, factions you would like to see' thread

P.S i never like playing as dwarves in games... they just ever appeal, however a draconian race was what stole my heart for this game... then they ripped it to pieces... but Reverie still hold the pieces... :(

Kire
01-13-2010, 07:23 AM
All races should have the possibility to choose more good or more bad way .... the only difference it could be that, for example, on humans more darkened houses/unit colour, some spikes on wall and 1 special unit (aka good- paladins and bad- barbarians).
But this would not work just at orcs =P (they are dumb and work only with instincts just like animals, so they cant be really evil or good).

zach12wqasxz
01-13-2010, 07:35 AM
Ah but surely you would think that orcs are this, however they are not... Orcs just have a different kind of society, they are not evil, they are just different to the other races... Like the elves are not necessarily good, they just live a different style of life...

There is no such thing as good or bad, we have discussed this thoroughly on a previous thread, i think its in the 'Official, factions you would like to see' thread

P.S i never like playing as dwarves in games... they just ever appeal, however a draconian race was what stole my heart for this game... then they ripped it to pieces... but Reverie still hold the pieces... :(

dont worry, you were not the only one that cried themselves to sleep when they annouced that dragons were removed from the game :p

Jack
01-13-2010, 08:01 AM
what dof sertanly must not become is a fight between good or evil.
you have to make own diplomitics and if you want war than you also can att your own race:D

nickson104
01-13-2010, 11:29 AM
dont worry, you were not the only one that cried themselves to sleep when they annouced that dragons were removed from the game :p

And then we suffered once more when they removed the sect! :( I miss being a royal dragon... :(

LiTos456
01-13-2010, 01:19 PM
During the events of Dawn of Fantasy, dwaves were non existent yet. They did not yet master space exploration and find earth where DoF exists.
Wait, wrong game.

nickson104
01-13-2010, 01:20 PM
During the events of Dawn of Fantasy, dwaves were non existent yet. They did not yet master space exploration and find earth where DoF exists.
Wait, wrong game.

What do you mean wrong game, you are totally right... i want to know where you get all your info from! That plot has been totally hush-hush! You werent supposed to let that go public!!!! :p

Jack
01-13-2010, 01:22 PM
they do exist
a mountain was from the dwarves somewhere in the north-east :D
and maybe later there willl be updates or dlc, and maybe the dwarves are playeble
but if it is that far than i have a human capitol:p

The Witch King of Angmar
01-13-2010, 04:59 PM
Maybe dwarves from Middle Earth could visit Mythador later in the expansion or DoF2. For now, we can just consider the dwarven mercenaries scouts.

Negthareas
01-13-2010, 07:13 PM
Maybe dwarves from Middle Earth could visit Mythador later in the expansion or DoF2. For now, we can just consider the dwarven mercenaries scouts.

So, is Mythador supposedly connected to Middle Earth in any way? [EG - They are on the same planet] or is it more like the dwarves built a portal and came across from who knows where to Mythador?

Are there different "religions" for the different races? If so, has anyone got any ideas for the dwarfs'?

massenic
01-14-2010, 01:51 AM
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that dwarves would be "Added to a currently unconfirmed update" or something like that... Can't find it anymore

Supreme
01-14-2010, 03:37 AM
So, is Mythador supposedly connected to Middle Earth in any way? [EG - They are on the same planet] or is it more like the dwarves built a portal and came across from who knows where to Mythador?

Are there different "religions" for the different races? If so, has anyone got any ideas for the dwarfs'?

Heh, you should see (pretty much) every fantasy game that has orcs etc. as a different world. Dont think they should adds religions, maybe call em guilds or something in that order if you want to add (even) more customisation of skills (siege/defence/troops etc.).

But dwarves are out there, just try and explore teh world!

Pilgrim
01-14-2010, 06:02 AM
I'm pretty sure Reverie World doesn't have the Copy-rights to middle earth :)
But it doesn't really matter. In the game we won't mind much where the dwarves come from. They'll still follow the established dwarf concept I expect.

szebus
01-14-2010, 06:18 AM
Why should Mythador be connected to Middle Earth ?
Those realms are different and each "fantasy realm" creator makes up his own "fantasy world", like D&D, WoW, LotR and so on. This is a good thing that none of those "realms" has to be connected in any way because this way the world of fantasy is more opened for newcomers and new creations.

blackfang
01-14-2010, 07:39 AM
What if every fantasy world has a hidden portal to another fantasy world? That would be AWESOME to find in-game:D

szebus
01-14-2010, 08:07 AM
By that you mean a fantasy world sifi dimension portal :D ?

http://blog.newsweek.com/photos/levelup/images/original/Portal-screenshot-2.aspx

Jack
01-14-2010, 08:27 AM
or some people have moved with the boats of the elves out of middle earth
to mythador:D

blackfang
01-14-2010, 08:33 AM
well i mean more like the black gate in wow:p

szebus
01-14-2010, 08:37 AM
Nee, don't think it would be good connecting those worlds with each other, and then to have someone complaining that there are no Transformers in the game. You now if you have some dimension gates you can have a dimension with those filthy robots to.

Supreme
01-14-2010, 09:04 AM
What if every fantasy world has a hidden portal to another fantasy world? That would be AWESOME to find in-game:D

The portal is not hard to find. Its actually not ingame but placed within the computer itself.

Kaznafein
01-14-2010, 09:10 AM
Ya i dint make that very clear but I was along your line of thinking, When I mentioned dark elves I dint mean just underground elves. But pretty much elves that moved under ground so long ago because of there disagree meants with the other elves. With the passage of time they became very diffrent looking and posses many traits the surface dewelers do not have. They see very good at night but there day vision is not as good etc..

You dont have to make them an evil race thats fine w/e. Align them with the orcs because they hate there surface cousins.

szebus
01-14-2010, 10:04 AM
Sounds more like a drow from forgotten realms:

"From left to right: a human, sun elf, wood elf, moon elf, drow, and wild elf.” (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Elf)

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a1/Elves.jpg

The idea itself, of having such a race is good, i kinda like them to. :cool:

Edit: some more pictures illustrating the drow:

http://simplymenotu.com/files/characterimages/lone_drow_det01.jpg http://www.iside82.altervista.org/nwn/drow.jpg http://images.epilogue.net/users/portalrun/Drow_FighterEpiSub.jpg

Jack
01-14-2010, 10:14 AM
wow
that are a lot of elf races

Darathor
01-14-2010, 03:06 PM
I always thought that drow were short, but not like a foot shorter than all the other elves, and I do recognize Drizzt Do'Urden in those pictures.

Josh Warner
01-14-2010, 08:02 PM
I always thought that drow were short, but not like a foot shorter than all the other elves, and I do recognize Drizzt Do'Urden in those pictures.

Everyone that is an avid reader of modern fantasy should :P personally I don't think R.A. Salvatore is a great writer, in technical ability - but I love the characters he creates and the way he expanded on the drow culture.

otomotopia
02-10-2010, 03:15 PM
A bit on the Dwarven mercs:

I would love to have dwarven construction options only available through one-time purchases from dwarfs. Like a faster wall repair, special defensive options like mines or a stronger portocullis. Or even Dwarven Seige weapons. This is on top of the normal units I'd expect- like axes, maybe mountain animal riders, and ranged units.

GPS51
02-10-2010, 03:30 PM
Hey how about a FF review this friday on dwarven merc??

ash12181987
02-12-2010, 10:52 PM
Hasn't anyone here played Dwarf Fortress...?

Dwarves are freakin' amazing. They are the Rabbits from Redwall, the Irish guy from Braveheard, the gyrocopter guy from Road Warrior, the vikings from 13th Warrior... They are all of these things, only better.

Playing underground would be good, perhaps something could be done like... they require a mountain to build their home, and while all buildings are built in their hold... the external view remains generally the same. By this I mean you have: Mountain. You click build hold and a buncha' miners go to work. Automatically designated tunnels are constructed to build your dwarf hold, and more tunnels are built as it expands. In this, walls from human cities, become tunnels in Dwarven ones. Few other suggestions

1.) Slow walking speed. Their short, and it wouldn't be as bad on mountainous terrain or underground. This makes them defense based, which would be nice.
2.) Tech or Honor? Decide on one and run with it. Their either steampunk, or viking. Both may make balancing them out a chore.
3.) Armored as heck. Goes without saying
4.) Very poor ranged combat. They live in caves, how far can you shoot a bow, in a cave?
5.) Obviously they'll be hard to rut out if they own a Mountain, but perhaps they'll also have a random chance of digging too deep (Ala LotR), or mines collapse, or a number of other hazards they would have to deal with?
6.) Magic or Tech? Again, see the Tech or honor. Maybe a bit of both I may grudgingly admit... or you could combine them? Technological to the point of being magical?
7.) Hill vs. Mountain dwarves: Hill dwarves are dirtier hillier looking dwarves who make towns like humans, while Mountain dwarves are awesome Gimli like dudes.

Josh Warner
02-12-2010, 11:08 PM
An underground siege would require a total rework of the current siege game the way you guys tend to look at it. The way I look at it dwarven cities are based on one gigantic cavern, with traditional walls/towers/gates inside this cavern. Or perhaps they've hollowed out an entire mountain.


I mean, how do you use trebs for example in a regular cave system? Even archer trajectories would be suspect to hitting the roof of the caves constantly.


As for the lore in whether they're magical, very stubborn when it comes to dying, or technologically superior we can do anything since we're working within our own IP, not sure what the plan is for them. I kinda doubt the whole technology thing though, I imagine it'll be closer to the normal master smiths, lives underground, tough as nails.

blackfang
02-13-2010, 06:47 AM
well josh, how about not allowing any siege weapons at all however when the dwarfs are attacked all they can do is defend themselves through the mines i mean they got plenty of tight places and can do a lot of dmg as they are heavily armored. Also you can use second stories as places where the few ranged dwarfs are, they would be hard to kill due to the guerrilla fighting HOWEVER if you find the king then they would really need to pull back. That could be fun:D

ash12181987
02-13-2010, 07:11 AM
An underground siege would require a total rework of the current siege game the way you guys tend to look at it. The way I look at it dwarven cities are based on one gigantic cavern, with traditional walls/towers/gates inside this cavern. Or perhaps they've hollowed out an entire mountain.


I mean, how do you use trebs for example in a regular cave system? Even archer trajectories would be suspect to hitting the roof of the caves constantly.


As for the lore in whether they're magical, very stubborn when it comes to dying, or technologically superior we can do anything since we're working within our own IP, not sure what the plan is for them. I kinda doubt the whole technology thing though, I imagine it'll be closer to the normal master smiths, lives underground, tough as nails.

You'd have to bust the front door down. As to damage beyond that, I mean: Your going to be limited, but then the more exposed the dwarves make themselves, the more damage you can cause by conventional means. If they carve a rampart into the stone above their entry, you can nuke it. If they build a tower outside, you can hit it. The front will have to be big enough to support a town, so it can't be a 1 man sized door, it'll have to be larger, I mean at Least a 10 across gate. I would imagine that knocking it down would be easy, but as said by blackfang, beyond that it would be attrition all the way.

Also, on a side note, this is why I said make their range attacks **** poor. This would mean that they would really need to focus on hand to hand and tricks to survive their hold, but honestly: Where would they get practice with ranged weapons, UnderGround.

Josh Warner
02-13-2010, 09:16 AM
You'd have to bust the front door down. As to damage beyond that, I mean: Your going to be limited, but then the more exposed the dwarves make themselves, the more damage you can cause by conventional means. If they carve a rampart into the stone above their entry, you can nuke it. If they build a tower outside, you can hit it. The front will have to be big enough to support a town, so it can't be a 1 man sized door, it'll have to be larger, I mean at Least a 10 across gate. I would imagine that knocking it down would be easy, but as said by blackfang, beyond that it would be attrition all the way.

Also, on a side note, this is why I said make their range attacks **** poor. This would mean that they would really need to focus on hand to hand and tricks to survive their hold, but honestly: Where would they get practice with ranged weapons, UnderGround.

Towers, trebs and archers are all huge parts of our siege game right now again, what you're suggesting changes the entire game and would be pretty much impossible to balance without making dwarves totally incapable of attacking other races, or incapable of defending.

welshie
02-13-2010, 10:11 AM
You'd have to bust the front door down. As to damage beyond that, I mean: Your going to be limited, but then the more exposed the dwarves make themselves, the more damage you can cause by conventional means. If they carve a rampart into the stone above their entry, you can nuke it. If they build a tower outside, you can hit it. The front will have to be big enough to support a town, so it can't be a 1 man sized door, it'll have to be larger, I mean at Least a 10 across gate. I would imagine that knocking it down would be easy, but as said by blackfang, beyond that it would be attrition all the way.

Also, on a side note, this is why I said make their range attacks **** poor. This would mean that they would really need to focus on hand to hand and tricks to survive their hold, but honestly: Where would they get practice with ranged weapons, UnderGround.

same place as everyone else would, in a range. The ranges them selves dont have to have a massive roof, as ranges are more short and accuracy/practice on the guns not Big wide open areas focusing on seeing how far you can fire.

wills370
02-13-2010, 01:46 PM
I think all these would be awsome. Possibly for a underground ward expantion where there can be lots of diffrent dwarf collonies each like diffrent races with diffrent ability's depending on where there culture lies.. could plan it like a great plague or event made them turn underground and in the 100's of yeard that have passed there can be true dwarfs. elven style dwarfs and even orc/more advanced goblin dwarf styles would be an intresting concept and would even out the balancing issues.

however a general above ground dwarf is likly to be needed for the current system. Which without could take a while to redo. Better to go with the safe otion and have a mountian built keep? but the rest of the buildings outside etc. Would be alittle like a strong hold can have bonuses on uneven ground etc also. But essencially would be an above ground type of unit. Could have transport tunnel opening also for fast transport of troops.

Puppeteer
02-13-2010, 03:53 PM
One could always keep Dwarves above ground but make an extensive campaign, featuring some specialised underground maps - naturally the traditional siege warfare would not work there.

wills370
02-14-2010, 04:27 AM
One could always keep Dwarves above ground but make an extensive campaign, featuring some specialised underground maps - naturally the traditional siege warfare would not work there.

Possibly although it seems abit of waste to have a majority campain driven race. The focus of this game seems to be online so i beleive the above ground dwarfes would be most apropiate.
:)

Puppeteer
02-14-2010, 04:58 AM
Yes, that's what I meant, but so you don't miss out on the cave-dwelling aspect you could have specialised scenarios :p

Henry Martin
02-15-2010, 05:41 AM
I would like to know how the "cave system" works. I heard someone mention it and thats its.

blackfang
02-15-2010, 01:42 PM
how about making their homes inside caves and all that and then make walls on the outside so it will get a helms deep kinda feel? Or perhaps MT Feeling:D

DarkMaster
02-15-2010, 02:30 PM
Caves in the side of a cliff or mountain would be too similar to what the Dragons supposedly have. Just my two cents.

Sharku
04-11-2010, 10:40 PM
Ah Pilgrim, Dwarves were featured quite prominently in Warcraft 3 :p I suppose the reason why Dwarves are never really added in the beginning is because they really aren't that different from humans fighting wise. I mean elves have their archery and magic, orcs their savagery, and then humans and dwarves kind of exist on a middle ground, unless you want to make them technologically advanced to the point where they're wielding guns and cannons which I don't see Reverie doing.

Yami-Yagari
04-12-2010, 02:25 AM
how about making their homes inside caves and all that and then make walls on the outside so it will get a helms deep kinda feel? Or perhaps MT Feeling:D

That could work. Erebor in BFME2 works the same way. massive walls with towers and keep and huge nearly indestructible gate at the mountain entrance. When gate comes down, you basicly lost your last line of defense

DarkMaster
04-12-2010, 04:03 AM
Yes, I believe something akin to BfME2's Erebor could work. With these differences:

-much of your home map is inside a mountain, as with the Erebor map. You have "miner" units that can create tunnels. You simply choose the direction the tunnel goes. You can also order your miners to create a larger room at any point in the tunnel.
-In each room, you are permitted to build a certain amount of "buildings" into the walls, such as barracks, dwelling, etc.
-Where the tunnels go outside the mountain, you have the option of building various gates, maybe with culverts which you can fire arrows through, though the amount of these would be limited.

So in the end, this would not be an impregnable fortress, as closing the gates means you would only be buying time to set up your Dwarven defenders at key points in the tunnel network. Once the gates fall, the only advantage the dwarves have would be that they have their lines already set up and in choke points.

Another aspect to this might be "secret" tunnels at various places, where the Dwarves can hit (hard) -and-run the enemy.

The economy would be fairly simple to set out. Gold and stone would be found at various places inside the mountain, while food and wood (though wood would only be needed in small amounts) would be gathered outside.

So basically, the Dwarves don't really get a fortress, but an ever-expanding tunnel network. I really hope something like this could be implemented. As to the current siege mechanics being screwed, I reckon you could come up with some pretty neat ideas. Maybe if you do a constant bombardment of the mountain, certain tunnels could collapse at random? Players could always make sure they bring along plenty of ground troops to flush the Dwarves out. I reckon attacking the dwarves should be all about forcing them into weak positions, as they would gain nothing by sitting there behind their gates hoping you don't break through.

Yami-Yagari
04-12-2010, 08:35 AM
That would work out quite nicely:D

Henry Martin
04-12-2010, 09:53 AM
Yes, I believe something akin to BfME2's Erebor could work. With these differences:

-much of your home map is inside a mountain, as with the Erebor map. You have "miner" units that can create tunnels. You simply choose the direction the tunnel goes. You can also order your miners to create a larger room at any point in the tunnel.
-In each room, you are permitted to build a certain amount of "buildings" into the walls, such as barracks, dwelling, etc.
-Where the tunnels go outside the mountain, you have the option of building various gates, maybe with culverts which you can fire arrows through, though the amount of these would be limited.

So in the end, this would not be an impregnable fortress, as closing the gates means you would only be buying time to set up your Dwarven defenders at key points in the tunnel network. Once the gates fall, the only advantage the dwarves have would be that they have their lines already set up and in choke points.

Another aspect to this might be "secret" tunnels at various places, where the Dwarves can hit (hard) -and-run the enemy.

The economy would be fairly simple to set out. Gold and stone would be found at various places inside the mountain, while food and wood (though wood would only be needed in small amounts) would be gathered outside.

So basically, the Dwarves don't really get a fortress, but an ever-expanding tunnel network. I really hope something like this could be implemented. As to the current siege mechanics being screwed, I reckon you could come up with some pretty neat ideas. Maybe if you do a constant bombardment of the mountain, certain tunnels could collapse at random? Players could always make sure they bring along plenty of ground troops to flush the Dwarves out. I reckon attacking the dwarves should be all about forcing them into weak positions, as they would gain nothing by sitting there behind their gates hoping you don't break through.

I love this idea, "BUT"

The dwarves would have to be able to defend the gates like the other races in some way. If there only chance they have to defend is if they send units outside or wait for the enemy to break in, is not good. There should be towers or something sticking out of the mountain for them to shoot at the enemy for defense.

Otherwise you ideas are great and being flushed out with testing, it sounds great.

Catabre
04-12-2010, 12:42 PM
Well I figured that the Dwarves would have their cities in caverns, but I envisioned that they would have floor to ceiling walls blocking off the tunnels into to this cavern. I would suggest explosives (or concussive magic) to break down these styles of walls. If you gave the Dwarves a ranged weapon disadvantage I suggest giving them undermining. That, in conjunction with strong battering rams and petards would give them strong siege options.

Puppeteer
04-12-2010, 12:43 PM
I'd be more inclined to reserve that idea for a long-running campaign, else in standard play it'd be hell to implement and balance - nigh impossible to eradicate bugs, too.

blackfang
04-12-2010, 02:13 PM
give the dwarf an axe and they will get eaten by an orc, give the dwarf a pickaxe and he will spend the rest of his days pondering on whether to attack the orc with it or mine the mountain. Dwarfs with mountains = Death, Dwarfs with tunnels and fast area traveling = not so dead but still pwned by me:D

Henry Martin
04-12-2010, 07:02 PM
Balancing stuff in RTSs is a pain period. Having them inside a mountain is pretty much a must, as just having them play like the other races will feel like a "just do it because it works" kind of thing.

Having its own interesting gameplay would make this game more attractive too. I know how hard it is to have gameplay ideas, but can't put them in because you don't have the time or its to difficult or it doesn't work as good as you thought or a*^hole teammates that whine because they think their idea is better. I have been experiencing that for that last several months.

DarkMaster
04-13-2010, 05:38 AM
The dwarves would have to be able to defend the gates like the other races in some way. If there only chance they have to defend is if they send units outside or wait for the enemy to break in, is not good. There should be towers or something sticking out of the mountain for them to shoot at the enemy for defense.

Yes, I reckon the dwarves should still have "offensive" defensive capabilities, but I'm just saying they should be more limited than the other races (no trebuchets on the ramparts etc). Bear in mind also that manning these defenses would also put your men at risk of bombardment, so it's more of a choice for Dwarven players eg: "Should I man the towers and do some damage to their army while putting my men at risk or should I play it safe and wait for them to inevitably break in (though with difficulty) and use my good infantry to my advantage in the choke points?

EDIT: Of course, the above-ground city of Tarnag seemed just fine for the Dwarves in Eldest.

Henry Martin
04-13-2010, 05:59 AM
Yeah I agree. Choosing to man those towers should be the players decision like it would be for the other races. You don't have to man the walls (with the other races) if you don't want to and you could wait for the enemy to enter the gate(I've did that a few times in total war).

You could give the a "rock slide" defense instead of the trebucets or the oil.

DarkMaster
04-13-2010, 06:26 PM
You could give the a "rock slide" defense instead of the trebucets or the oil.
Sounds good:) . Of course, this would be a one-time use, unlike stone tippers and the like which can be reloaded relatively quickly.

GPS51
04-13-2010, 06:57 PM
Well...if there a no survivors why can't you use it again? Just askin'. How about holes in the roof of the tunnels. Spider drops. Oil. Rocks. Endless possibilities.

DarkMaster
04-13-2010, 11:49 PM
Yes, any of these would be good ideas. I'm just saying that Dwarven strongholds themselves wouldn't be able to do as much damage to attacking armies as other races'. Their main focus would be on "haha, you have to spent so much ammunition to get in here, and THEN you have to deal with my ownage infantry":D .

Yami-Yagari
04-14-2010, 04:07 AM
Yes, any of these would be good ideas. I'm just saying that Dwarven strongholds themselves wouldn't be able to do as much damage to attacking armies as other races'.
have to agree on that, seeing as dwarves are the better masons, so basicly their strongholds would have the best defense ingame. would be way to imbalanced to give them to much offensive capabilities during sieges

Puppeteer
04-14-2010, 04:09 AM
I can envisage Dwarves using murder holes very effectively... including jumping down them
What are people's views on gunpowder again?

Henry Martin
04-14-2010, 06:43 AM
I can envisage Dwarves using murder holes very effectively... including jumping down them
What are people's views on gunpowder again?

If you are talking about giving dwarves gunpowder for cannons or muskets(instead of crossbows or bows), then I'm for it.

You can treat the musket like crossbows, as it is stronger, but has shorter range, less accurate, and longer to load.

The cannon could be slightly stronger than the trebuchets, but takes longer to load.

DarkMaster
04-14-2010, 07:19 AM
You can treat the musket like crossbows, as it is stronger, but has shorter range, less accurate, and longer to load.

The cannon could be slightly stronger than the trebuchets, but takes longer to load.
This. That is assuming that gunpowder weapons are used for Dwarves. I really don't mind either way:)

Yami-Yagari
04-14-2010, 09:00 AM
dunno, isn´t giving dwarves knowledge of gunpower gonna be imbalanced later in the game? :confused:

Henry Martin
04-14-2010, 09:28 AM
dunno, isn´t giving dwarves knowledge of gunpower gonna be imbalanced later in the game? :confused:

Not really. It all comes down to the stats(damage, range, time, etc). Testing these stats will decide the balance not the mesh/object. You could put a laser gun in the game and have it weaker then a unit throwing a rock if you have the lasers damage low.

Think of the dwarves having a crossbow and changing the crossbow mesh with a musket mesh(the arrow with a lead ball). As long as the stats of the crossbow stay the same, their is know difference between the two except the visual.

Yami-Yagari
04-14-2010, 09:33 AM
Not really. It all comes down to the stats(damage, range, time, etc). Think of the dwarves having a crossbow and changing the crossbow mesh with a musket mesh(the arrow with a lead ball). As long as the stats of the crossbow stay the same, their is know difference between the two except the visual.

ye, but guns have, like in medieval 2:Total War, far larger effect on morale. The numbers advantage ain't going to do **** if they'r out of morale before they'r even in attack range:(

Henry Martin
04-14-2010, 09:42 AM
ye, but guns have, like in medieval 2:Total War, far larger effect on morale. The numbers advantage ain't going to do **** if they'r out of morale before they'r even in attack range:(


Is their moral in this game?

If there is, they could have it low. Again its up to the stats. Moral was a major part of total war. If moral is a major part of the game then you would have to tweak it.

The game doesn't have to have moral to still play good. Many RTS don't have or rely on moral.

GPS51
04-14-2010, 09:48 AM
The devs had an interesting point about morale. They said the look at it as a plus to have your units run away so that you don't get them annihilated. Then you can heal up your uber OP units with starting over. Sounds like a good idea. I'd like to see a medieval game without gunpowder units. You can always make it as DLC or an expansion.

Yami-Yagari
04-14-2010, 10:04 AM
I'd like to see a medieval game without gunpowder units. You can always make it as DLC or an expansion.

Gotta agree with that. if your going to make a medieval RTS, at least try to keep it medieval.

Yami-Yagari
04-14-2010, 10:13 AM
I'm more a less wondering, what kind of cavalry would dwarves use, if they even have any :confused:

Henry Martin
04-14-2010, 10:26 AM
But its "FANTASY" medieval and a little history lesson "they did have gunpowder in the medieval".

Also the dwarves were master smiths and craftmen.

Yami-Yagari
04-14-2010, 10:40 AM
I really don't care if they put it in, yes or no, just hope they think it through before they start adding more early renaissance gear to the dwarves, like da vinci flying machine, simply because they'r master smiths and craftsmen

Henry Martin
04-14-2010, 10:48 AM
I really don't care if they put it in, yes or no, just hope they think it through before they start adding more early renaissance gear to the dwarves, like da vinci flying machine, simply because they'r master smiths and craftsmen

I don't want to see all that s@#t in it. I dont want to see dwarves with that da vinci crap. I just want to see medieval dwarves with gunpowder.

Yes would want to know what the calvary looks like(if there is any).

welshie
04-14-2010, 11:24 AM
Why guns, crossbows suit them just as good.
You cannot make the dwarves with guns and then try to make it realistic. Musketts are the only gunpowder firearm that is lesser than the bow, due to its accuracy, range and rounds per minuite. And if you make musketeers then what will your upgrades be, as you cannot upgrade the weapon without making the dwarves some long range masters.

Give them crossbows and make there seige weps good :)

Ohh yeh and ofc why dont you have a underground base thats your inner wall and starting point then the teirs go outside the mountian region, and not expand with in. Bascily have another walled area around your citedel (the bit inside the mountian) with buildings and that, so then you have the same options open as all other races do but the only difference is that your last teir of wall and castle is inside the mountian.

Henry Martin
04-14-2010, 11:39 AM
Why guns, crossbows suit them just as good.
You cannot make the dwarves with guns and then try to make it realistic. Musketts are the only gunpowder firearm that is lesser than the bow, due to its accuracy, range and rounds per minuite. And if you make musketeers then what will your upgrades be, as you cannot upgrade the weapon without making the dwarves some long range masters.

Give them crossbows and make there seige weps good :)

Ohh yeh and ofc why dont you have a underground base thats your inner wall and starting point then the teirs go outside the mountian region, and not expand with in. Bascily have another walled area around your citedel (the bit inside the mountian) with buildings and that, so then you have the same options open as all other races do but the only difference is that your last teir of wall and castle is inside the mountian.

The crossbow and the musket are basically the same. The crossbow took longer to load that a bow, there range was less than the bow, and the accuracy was lower than the bow. All of those things are what the musket is compared to the bow. Like I said before if you exchange the crossbow mesh with a musket, it would be the same.

I just would like to see gunpowder because it is different. Most RTS with dwarves have them with crossbows. You do see dwarves with gunpowder, but not in many games.

I personally will mod guns and cannons into the game to see what I can do to it(balancing,upgrades).

I don't want to sound pressing, this is just what I would like to see.

Yami-Yagari
04-14-2010, 11:44 AM
The crossbow and the musket are basically the same. The crossbow took longer to load that a bow, there range was less than the bow, and the accuracy was lower than the bow.

No offence, but crossbow owns the normal bow in range. Normal bow can shoot faster yes, but the range depends on the person using it. while the crossbow can store way much power, and shoot further and penetrate armor.

welshie
04-14-2010, 12:16 PM
Lol crossbow is soooooooo much more accurate than a muskett which is the biggest downfall to that so therefor Muskett < crossbows. I have not seen many fantasy games where dwarves use crossbows, they generaly use guns or throwing knives/axes in the games ive played. And trying to use the 'Everyone does it so its all the same' argument against crossbows is next to pointless as most game gunpowder is used for dwarves and no many games have crossbows as the standard range unit for them.

Henry Martin
04-14-2010, 12:26 PM
No offence, but crossbow owns the normal bow in range. Normal bow can shoot faster yes, but the range depends on the person using it. while the crossbow can store way much power, and shoot further and penetrate armor.

Wrong, the crossbow was better at penetration, but its range was lower because it didn't use arrows it use bolts which were a lot shorter and not meant for long range.

Ok, the crossbow was a lot more accurate than the musket(before rifling).

I still would like to see guns in the game. In the end if they put the dwarves I would be happy regardless. I am actually more interested in the way dwarves fortresses are done(hope in mountains).

GPS51
04-14-2010, 12:38 PM
I'd like to see axe throwing units period. Anybody throwing axes is cool. Perhaps the dwarves could recruit mountain monsters/mercs from the depths? You could do a lot with that idea.

Yami-Yagari
04-14-2010, 12:43 PM
Would be nice to if you could build a dwarf stronghold on the mountain's surface. you would take a normal peak, and build towers and chambers in and on the mountain's surface/bedrock , which would look awesome. kinda like some of the dwarven strongholds in warhammer

I'd like to see axe throwing units period. Anybody throwing axes is cool.

Would like to see that to. Maybe some sort of skirmisher unit who is capable of medium ranged attacks and close range attacks. Of course each race would have to get skirmish units to balance it out.:D

DarkMaster
04-14-2010, 08:33 PM
I'd like to see axe throwing units period. Anybody throwing axes is cool.
I've sort of got mixed feelings about axe throwing units. Yes, it is incredibly dwarvish to send an axe twirling at your enemy. On the other hand, did you ever play BfME2? The axe throwers in that sent a constant stream of them against enemies, with a seemingly unlimited supply. IMO realism > having a new unit.

GPS51
04-14-2010, 08:43 PM
Nope never played BFME2 or 1. I'd think 5 or 6 volleys of axes would suffice. Although you never hear the archers complaining of quiver problems or realism with unending volleys.

DarkMaster
04-14-2010, 11:16 PM
Yes, but a standard quiver is twenty-four arrows. How many throwing axes do you think you could carry? I'd say five a most, and with too much awkwardness to be effective on a battlefield. I'd prefer it was just a special ability for dwarven infantry - The throw axes into the enemy's line, breaking it up, then smash what's left with an old-fashioned charge.

GPS51
04-14-2010, 11:56 PM
Yeah I totally could see 2 or 3 axes thrown and then the wild charge. Hopefully with dwarven battle cries. If I went to battle as an archer I'd be carrying at least 2 or 3 QUIVERs packed with arrows. You won't catch me running out ;)

DarkMaster
04-15-2010, 12:32 AM
Hopefully with dwarven battle cries.
Man, if there's no Dwarven battle cries, I will throw myself off a cliff.

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 01:09 AM
Man, if there's no Dwarven battle cries, I will throw myself off a cliff.

There´s definitely going to be dwarven battlecries. Dwarves have lived on a constant diet of beer and raw meat, of course they´l go berserk and shout ****.

I´m really wondering what cavalry they would have, because not giving them cavalry would be big disadvantage. But for some reason mountain goat riders don´t seen to be as effective or intimidating as wargs and horsemen:confused:

GPS51
04-15-2010, 08:37 AM
So give them ponies instead of warhorses. Seems simple enough. Yeah with all that underground living you'd think that it would make the dwarvers very grumpy. Just right for a smash mouth fight.

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 08:59 AM
So give them ponies instead of warhorses. Seems simple enough.

But ponies are for fags:rolleyes: . besides had way better idea.
was thinking more about sort support chariot which throws barrels of oil or beer and ignites them, which makes them usefull for offense and defense.

p.s. i really have nothing against fags, im trying to make a point:o

GPS51
04-15-2010, 09:13 AM
Arg who ever heard of a dwarven chariot? What do they have tracks underground? First one round the stalactite at the far end and back? JK. I mean just give them smaller/weaker mounts.

wills370
04-15-2010, 10:54 AM
Hmm there could be a gap in the creative market for a mouted unit that would suit the dwarfves the best. Possibly a stone bear sort of creature something reasonably compact but broad and powerful. And there could be a gap for accient lore where the dwarves originally had to share the space in a treaty with these mounts when they entered the caves many thousand years ago and over the time they became so intergrated in the cultre you take them as being part of the dwarven race in general and not a seperate entity. Where the mount can live many generations longer then the dwarf so become almost like a family hierlome to the most prestigous of the family's


would be pretty easy to put in place and let the devs have some fun comming up with a mount.

blackfang
04-15-2010, 11:06 AM
no dwarfs HATE mounts, give them golems or air craft:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

GPS51
04-15-2010, 11:08 AM
Good ideas wills. I like 'em. The vicous cave bear mounts. Or even giant cave sloths. Fossils are hilarious when the produce things like that.

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 11:10 AM
Merely suggesting. mean i´d rather take dwarven chariot then fruity ponyriders. Plus lets just compare ponies with regular horses and wargs, they´r way out of their league. sure the battleboar war chariot won´t be as strong as other races cavalry, but it will create a whole new way to use cavalry instead of just charging them in flanks. say you´re losing a battle with the dwarves, or you´r archers are gonna get flanked, you can use the oil barrels + fire to create defensive DoT Barriers to defend your units, or attack ofc.

Puppeteer
04-15-2010, 11:44 AM
Perhaps the Dwarves are too proud to rely on an inferior beast?
I think in Age of Mythology they stipulated that the Norse Hersirs would dismount before combat, if they rode to battle.
That could set Dwarves aside as unique (not as if they need it with your plans for underground fortresses :p), but what would compensate it?

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 11:51 AM
I think in Age of Mythology they stipulated that the Norse Hersirs would dismount before combat, if they rode to battle.
That could set Dwarves aside as unique (not as if they need it with your plans for underground fortresses :p), but what would compensate it?

Only way to compensate the loss of cavalry is by buffing their infantry, else you´ll feel the disadvantage dwarves will have against the other races.

wills370
04-15-2010, 12:21 PM
Hmm i fear buffed infantry would make the army to slow to do any real sort of warfare but defence. Although a set of 1 buffed infantry would be good.. E.g. pikemen.

but with regard to the mounts if they do live in mountian fortresses etc. It is unlikly chariots would be used. Being developed for use in the plains etc. It would be far more likly to have a living creature capable of negating the treacherous routes. In my opionion anyway.

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 12:44 PM
Guess it's back to mountain goat brigade :( or cave bears of cave sloths:o

GPS51
04-15-2010, 01:35 PM
How about saber toothed tigers or tiger cats? Something with some fangs....

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 01:50 PM
How about saber toothed tigers or tiger cats? Something with some fangs....

like mountain lions or lynxs?:confused:

GPS51
04-15-2010, 02:09 PM
Yeah but bulkier with nastier teeth. Think the fighting version of the mountain lion.

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 02:13 PM
Yeah but bulkier with nastier teeth. Think the fighting version of the mountain lion.

won't that just be the kitty version of the warg? :confused:

GPS51
04-15-2010, 02:35 PM
Yeah pretty much. The mountain kitty version as opposed the plain/forest loving warg. I dunno what else to give them beyond ponies/chariots. :rolleyes:

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 02:52 PM
Yeah pretty much. The mountain kitty version as opposed the plain/forest loving warg. I dunno what else to give them beyond ponies/chariots. :rolleyes:

Mountain goats :eek:

http://www.fireflower.ca/images/content/mountain_goat.jpg

It might need some tweeking, but they could be uber mounts . more/longer horns, maybe some tusks, bit more bulk and it could totally own a warg :o

GPS51
04-15-2010, 02:56 PM
Hmm with armor and razor sharp horns maybe. Seems a little on the wimpy side. But I'm partial to killer kats.

wills370
04-15-2010, 03:24 PM
http://www.bfcards.info/images/icefangraptor_r.jpg


This is a good exaple of something that the dwarves could ride. It is made of stone and is shwon to inhabit caves in the picture *all copyright goes to EA battleforge though who came up with this*

Alex Walz
04-15-2010, 03:27 PM
I think Yak mounts would be pretty cool. Maybe with some woolly mammoth beast units...

We'll have a couple types of dwarven infantry (available as mercenaries and regional creeps) for the initial release, but probably no mounts.

GPS51
04-15-2010, 03:29 PM
Hmm woolly rhinos would be awesome. Who doesn't want to charge into battle with a tank with a pointy nose?

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 03:34 PM
rhino's would be awesome yes :D

GPS51
04-15-2010, 03:37 PM
dwarven mercs and berserkers standing side by side will be sweet.

Negthareas
04-15-2010, 05:15 PM
Yes - very sweet... It would be AWEsome!

Kire
04-15-2010, 08:10 PM
Big rat mount or big mole in chariot, anyone?=) Tho those things usually live in dark places.
Than for second try ... there can be some spectral beings that also gives light .... since its dark in caves and fire would drain air in closed mountain.
Third try.... there could be mountain trolls to ride =P.
4th..... Some chamols or ibex.
5th..... bears as said also before sounds the best for me =) (maybe could be 2-3on one bear at same time =)).

Henry Martin
04-15-2010, 08:26 PM
Hey how about mole-bears:D...

Yeah I think bears could work(they are pretty fast). Yak would be interesting.

GPS51
04-15-2010, 09:26 PM
The attack yaks strike back? "bad pun i know"

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 10:45 PM
Or mountain yeti, but thays more a less what the ogre is for the orcs :( bit still would be nice if they had those. big fuzzy hairballs of carnage and gore:eek:

GPS51
04-15-2010, 10:50 PM
Yeah so long as the dwarf mount has big teeth and prefferrably lots of long hair. I'm good. I'm good.

Yami-Yagari
04-15-2010, 11:02 PM
You just have to poke it long enough with a stick to send it into a raging mindless slaughter against your enemies, what would be awesome:eek: , especially when the blood stains the fur, which would give it a cool effect like... Bloodied Psychopath Poodle :eek:

Kire
04-16-2010, 04:50 AM
What if dwarvish "cavalry" would be captive rage monsters? Tho they act like cavalry and are little stronger but cuz of rage they can also turn on dwarves themselves so they can be devastating to enemies and if not careful also to dwarves?=)

blackfang
04-16-2010, 05:09 AM
how about the dwarfs ride... HUMANS!!! Perfect, when the dwarfs kill an army of humans they can also take captives and give them the appropriate clothes for riding and a spear so they can charge as well:D Über awesome!!!

Yami-Yagari
04-16-2010, 05:15 AM
how about the dwarfs ride... HUMANS!!! Perfect, when the dwarfs kill an army of humans they can also take captives and give them the appropriate clothes for riding and a spear so they can charge as well:D Über awesome!!!

Dwarves riding men:confused: .... one way or the other, doesn't sound right for some reason. :confused:

Negthareas
04-16-2010, 08:52 AM
Doesn't work, humans not big enough, dwarves short - but HEAVY.

blackfang
04-16-2010, 11:22 AM
give them orcs then, elves will just break their bones on it.

Kire
04-16-2010, 01:25 PM
Or dwarves dont need cavalry .... just give them fire ale catapult with some nasty splash of fire + heavy infantry (better against cavalry and arrows?). Tho they just fire those ale and charge while enemy trys to avoid burning ale and loose formations =P. If not enough than also give some infantry a rage charge option when closer to enemy =).

Negthareas
04-16-2010, 03:43 PM
Some kind of mount is necessary I think.

Sharku
04-16-2010, 03:49 PM
If Reverie goes with steampunk Dwarves like Warhammer and Warcraft, maybe some sort of tank?

Puppeteer
04-16-2010, 04:57 PM
just give them fire ale catapult
Or give some notoriously rowdy dwarves some ale and let them go on a rampage.

Some kind of mount is necessary I think.
But is it though? I don't think any of the suggested mounts so far have been... quite up to scratch. Need they have the core elements? The only feasible mount I can think of is an oxen (quite influenced by BFME2, though) however that presents two limitations - foremost, I don't see them being mounts more supplementary beasts, but I also don't see them being aggressive.

welshie
04-16-2010, 05:05 PM
Or give some notoriously rowdy dwarves some ale and let them go on a rampage.


But is it though? I don't think any of the suggested mounts so far have been... quite up to scratch. Need they have the core elements? The only feasible mount I can think of is an oxen (quite influenced by BFME2, though) however that presents two limitations - foremost, I don't see them being mounts more supplementary beasts, but I also don't see them being aggressive.

what and horses are?

Yami-Yagari
04-16-2010, 05:08 PM
I don't think any of the suggested mounts so far have been... quite up to scratch. Need they have the core elements? The only feasible mount I can think of is an oxen (quite influenced by BFME2, though) however that presents two limitations - foremost, I don't see them being mounts more supplementary beasts, but I also don't see them being aggressive.

Yeah, its not easy designing mounts for dwarves, simply because you hardly see them use mounts for combat purposes. In most cases they either use beasts or create their own steampunk mounts. maybe best solution is to replace dwarven cavalry with monster brigade the dwarves send into battle, who do a lot of damage, but can still backfire in some way like going on killing sprees or massive panic wave

Henry Martin
04-16-2010, 05:10 PM
I don't think a mount for the dwarves is necessary. You could make to dwarves more resistent to chivalry charges or chivalry in general. Giving that the berserk/rage ability would be a plus.

Dwarves are short and tough as the stone that surrounds them.

GPS51
04-16-2010, 05:56 PM
Yup and vs elven master archers in wind formation? Good night dwarves...:mad:

DarkMaster
04-16-2010, 07:53 PM
Not when they're in "Yeeeaaarghhh!!!!" formation:D

Yami-Yagari
04-17-2010, 12:51 AM
Not when they're in "Yeeeaaarghhh!!!!" formation:D

Have to admit, when dwarves are in "Yeeeaaarghhh!!!!" formation, elves are pretty screwed:rolleyes:

DarkMaster
04-17-2010, 04:08 AM
Too right:D

Negthareas
04-17-2010, 08:39 AM
Hmm. If the dwarves were to have a mount, it would have to be something unique to DoF, not a take-off of any other fantasy. Of course, this would be very hard to do. It might be enough for the dwarves to have a big anti-cavalry bonus, plus a big berserker ability.

Henry Martin
04-17-2010, 09:28 PM
How about a giant naked mole-rat? :D

Yeah you never really see dwarves do mounted combat. I think if you beef-up some stats and/or give some good abilities that would way out the balance.

Most dwarven units are heavy units and it would not be unnatural to see that an unmount dwarf could be on equal playing ground against mount units.

DarkMaster
04-18-2010, 04:07 AM
I think that Dwarves should have no cavalry, "perhaps" a battle-car/wagon type thing, but no living mounts.

Yami-Yagari
04-18-2010, 05:16 AM
I think that Dwarves should have no cavalry, "perhaps" a battle-car/wagon type thing, but no living mounts.

Living mounts were more a less out of the question yes. But won't battle cars/wagons/tanks a little extreme? like battletanks would be almost impossible to take down.

welshie
04-18-2010, 05:41 AM
Why dont you skip the idea and create like a golem type unit which is like a mount without a rider? like in Dragon age. I would relate dwarves to this type of thing even if it isnt golems something which isnt mountable but is just like caverly in its attack/formations/speed.

Yami-Yagari
04-18-2010, 05:45 AM
Why dont you skip the idea and create like a golem type unit which is like a mount without a rider? like in Dragon age. I would relate dwarves to this type of thing even if it isnt golems something which isnt mountable but is just like caverly in its attack/formations/speed.

Might aswell just make them equivalent of the ogre, a large unit instead of cavalry

welshie
04-18-2010, 05:49 AM
yeh thats what i ment kinda in a complicated way... :P

Sharku
04-18-2010, 09:50 AM
Battleboars :-P

blackfang
04-18-2010, 10:01 AM
pfft, give them a squirrel or a rabbit. They should be able to ride them:)

Yami-Yagari
04-18-2010, 10:09 AM
Battleboars :-P

meh, was already mentioned. can't really picture dwarfs riding something they'd probably eat raw and wash down with ale.:confused:

Henry Martin
04-18-2010, 10:24 AM
Why dont you skip the idea and create like a golem type unit which is like a mount without a rider? like in Dragon age. I would relate dwarves to this type of thing even if it isnt golems something which isnt mountable but is just like caverly in its attack/formations/speed.

I was thinking the same thing. Dwarves having golems just makes sense:D. I just started playing Dragon Age Awakening.

When I think of the dwarves I think of dragon age's dwarves(even how Orzammar is built). The only difference is that are more attached to the topside world.

It has all that lava flowing around, most of the buildings are built in the the mountains side on different level.

Lava could even be used as a defense for the dwarves.

Yami-Yagari
04-18-2010, 10:43 AM
It has all that lava flowing around, most of the buildings are built in the the mountains side on different level.

Lava could even be used as a defense for the dwarves.

It could be used yes, but you'd have to settle near/in/under a volcano in under to have that, so that could become one of the starting areas for the dwarves

Puppeteer
04-18-2010, 11:13 AM
Can people post pictures, or links to pictures, of these golems? I'm having a hard time imagining what they would look like, besides the old Jewish legend...

Yami-Yagari
04-18-2010, 11:39 AM
Can people post pictures, or links to pictures, of these golems? I'm having a hard time imagining what they would look like, besides the old Jewish legend...

http://www.baldursgateworld.fr/lacouronne/attachments/screenshots-dragon-age-origins/3836d1259164977-ma-colec-caridin.jpg
http://www.dragonageguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/golem.jpg

First one is Caridin, Creator of the Golems(he looks awesome), second is the regular golem

Kire
04-18-2010, 11:47 AM
On first picture that golem have one of the most terrifying weapon i have ever seen =). Beside warcraft 3 golems also look nice.

Henry Martin
04-18-2010, 12:11 PM
Whats interesting about golems in dragon age is that in order for the golem to work you need the soul of a person.

Caridin forged golems with the soul of someone on the anvil of the void.

That was one of my favorite parts of the game where the mission in Orzammar.

Sharku
04-18-2010, 09:17 PM
Yea that was an awesome twist. Golems are an awesome idea, fits well with the Dwarven craftsmen mentality too.

DarkMaster
04-18-2010, 11:51 PM
How about, as a "heavy hitter" type unit, a regular dwarf encased entirely in stone by some sort of magic? You can see Aang and Toph doing similar stuff with earthbending in Avatar: The Last Airbender if you watch that.

Yami-Yagari
04-19-2010, 01:34 AM
How about, as a "heavy hitter" type unit, a regular dwarf encased entirely in stone by some sort of magic? You can see Aang and Toph doing similar stuff with earthbending in Avatar: The Last Airbender if you watch that.

Thats basicly your average DA golem to be honest.

wills370
04-29-2010, 04:14 PM
Hmm still a nice idea. Would be possibly a nice adaptation if they did apply that to the DOF where the mounted unit was infact a faster stone or metal golem that could chrge etc. Little like a space marriens assult troop sort of idea.

illicit87
08-07-2010, 11:55 AM
but what do dwarves eat?:confused:

The tears of all of the sad players who won't be able to use their favorite race.... it gives them the salty stalwart resolve to keep tunneling drinking and plotting... because when they come... they will come for WAR! lol

GPS51
08-07-2010, 11:59 AM
Oh the dwarves are coming..think xpack1 and we of the dwarven race will wait and plot away...

sordurar
12-03-2010, 06:05 AM
i dont think dwarves are very popular ...

rtejada
12-04-2010, 02:12 PM
ughh dwarves are AWESOME. id definitely pick that race if it ever comes :(. can only be patient and hope.

I dont think dwarves need mounts anyway.. they should just have heavy-hitting units that can take down calvary or have like underground "burrow" abilities that allow for speed and flanking/ambush. Totally going a whole new direction then the regular infantry>archer>calvary etc. route.

Nathikal
12-06-2010, 09:17 PM
If I may...? Oh, and I apologize for the wall of text. Lots of ideas : )

I've always seen dwarves as a sort of...inverse-elf. They have subpar archery skills and superior melee skills, are slower units but preferring heavy armor. Combined with a natural longevity and physical strength, dwarves represent the pinnacle of melee units, which are supported by their archers.

Medieval archery was classified mostly by clouds of arrows. Legolas-esque archers, who could easily pin down an opponent, were pretty much extremely rare and extremely talented. Bows were given out en masse because they were cheap, and didn't require much training.

It seems to me, then, that dwarves could easily have a measure of archery. It wouldn't be something that would match the elves, or perhaps even the humans. But it would still be.

Another solution is the crossbow. Instead of giving the dwarves bow weapons, give them a stronger, slower crossbow. It works better with their smaller, stronger bodies (rather than a longbow, which would be nigh impossible to fire) and while sacrificing speed and a measure of precision would give them a ranged unit. Perhaps give both shortbows and crossbows, making shortbows favor a sort of arrow-cloud technique (quantity vs. quality) whilst crossbows favor sniping (quality vs. quantity)?

There is also the possibility of axe throwers and hammer throwers. And spear throwers. Generally a wide range of thrown weapons. Grenades, anyone?

Weapon-wise, I’ve see dwarves as prefering hammers and axes, something that is easier to wield when you are, again, small and strong, as well as short swords – more awkward with their size and lack of agility, but still an option. Polearms would be possible, I think, but generally difficult to use overall. The ability to wield a heavy shield or simply a two-handed weapon of sheer power.

It would be interesting if players could, in a way, customize the dwarves. Instead of having a cut-and-dry race, have a race with multiple options. If a player prefers durability, rely on heavy armor, heavy shields, and weaker one handed weapons for the sake of attrition, perhaps augmented with a handful of archers and/or lancers. Preferring ranged combat as a prelude to melee, simply give each melee fighter a throwing weapon and a normal weapon and groups of crossbow-wielders to thin out enemy ranks.

Also, I noticed that people were concerned about dwarven siege battles. Perhaps it would be possible to have the dwarven outer wall be the mountainside? I’m kind of thinking about Erebor here, from the Battle for Middle Earth 2. You break down the outer wall (maybe the gate, which could be amazingly massive) and then march in to the dwarven city. Not to mention that all dwarven cities will not be underground, unless the dwarves only colonize where mountains are. Thus, the only difficulty would actually be the first or so citadel. Dwarven ranged units could have little murderholes in the mountain, near the ‘walls’ of the inner gate, to shoot enemy troops from.

This would give the dwarven citadel a huge advantage in terms of wall strength, and that could perhaps be an overarching benefit that affects all dwarven stone walls. At the same time, dwarven troops would probably favor waiting until the enemy is inside, which would cater to a sort of trap-them-inside-the-gate strategy. I do admit that it would be fairly difficult to actually build a dwarven city.

Perhaps it would be a mechanism that dwarven cities have a size limit? They need to prioritize more. It would go along with the dwarven army idea I brought up in this post (that of picking and choosing as you please) and would represent a sort of narrow focus that defines the dwarven race: they pick one area, and stick to it.

Stubborn as a dwarf!

shawnchi
12-06-2010, 10:57 PM
I freaking love dwarves :) My favorite race. Hope they get added in the game :p

Avatarn11
12-06-2010, 11:29 PM
In all my games that have dwarves I always make one since reading forgotten realms with Drizzt, Battlehammer, pwent the list goes on and on I have always loved dwarfs. So if you can get them as a merc unit for now thats awsome hopefully they do put in in as a full blown race. This game as so much potential and so many places it can expand this could be one of those games that last for a decade which would be awsome. I'm really looking forward to it and I hope it all balances itself out when it comes time for pvp. but it looks awsome i've been following it for 3 months now not long compared to alot of other people but the video it has as the intro just amazed me and i've been hooked ever since.

Nathikal
12-07-2010, 09:25 AM
I'm sure that more races will be added in as the game proceeds. Let's be honest, three distinct races is a bit of a standard, at least. I'm coming off of Age of Wonders, which had 12ish races that were all fairly unique.

It won't be IDEAL, I admit, but at the end of the day there are various starting zones that provide unique playstyles, there are unique units based on homelands, from what I've seen there is an amazing amount of castle/city creation and building. The lore is really quite interesting, and the basis for a dragon race, a dwarf race, a mercenary sort of faction, etc. are all probably in the data still.

I bet that, if the game goes well (which I'm sure it will) a number of changes will come immediately after, as well as expansions, etc. I'm a tad bit disappointed that there will be only three races to play with initially, but worse things have happened.

...still, dwarves would be nice. If nothing else, it'd be great if they represented some sort of unique dwarven faction. Like many people said, dwarves are generally pushed under the woodwork and left to suffocate. They don't really 'stand out' in any games.

At the moment, it looks to me like we have three distinct categories - balanced humans, aggresive orcs, and defensive elves. Any new races would either need to work with that setup (IE, add 3 new races to represent balance, aggression, and defense) or expand the setup (research & development faction, economical faction, seafaring faction, etc.)

Dwarves could probably suit economical benefits or R&D benefits, actually. But unless the paradigm itself changes, each race will be a slightly colored copy of another after the initial three.

cybroxis
12-07-2010, 07:05 PM
*votes for no dwarves*

Jack
12-08-2010, 11:56 AM
i am wondering that when you put dwarves in the game, they need an begining story like they have nothing to find under the ground and that the are looking once again above the surface.
and dwarves just have to get the best defense if you ask me.
and that gold mines and other mines are the best sorce of surplie.
the only problem i am concerned about is their food because how the hell are they going to get food beneath the surface :o

Nathikal
12-08-2010, 09:02 PM
Jack,

Perhaps it would be possible for dwarves to get marginal amounts of food from their underground homes, but in turn a surplus of other resources - gold and metal, stone, what have you. They could use their resources to build up their nation, and then rely on trade and conquest to actually get food.

It seems to me that this leans dwarves more towards the exquisite economical setup rather than any of the three current archetypes. That could be a problem if dwarves end up being a swarm race (I don't see that being dwarf-like) or it could make them too much like underground, short elves (with highly expensive but very powerful units).

Either way, we'd have to look at the excess resources and how to make sure they don't be OP.

Commander
12-14-2010, 04:07 AM
Yep , I would like to see dwarves in this game too . I like to have an alliance of a light . For example human , elven and dwarven alliance :) .
May be we can make pre-alliance ? What do you think ?

Winterwolf00
12-16-2010, 02:29 AM
Aren't dwarfs typically more of a defensive race?

Pilgrim
12-16-2010, 07:07 PM
Yep , I would like to see dwarves in this game too . I like to have an alliance of a light . For example human , elven and dwarven alliance :) .
May be we can make pre-alliance ? What do you think ?

Can't remember which one it was, but there was once a fantasy RTS released which had "good races" - elves and something, "dark races" - orcs and trolls, and humans fell into the 'neutral' catagory. I thought it was an interesting concept.

You certainly couldn't define humans as a "light race", not with half the world's population starving and the other half greedy, and animals in factory farms in every nation.

Commander
12-17-2010, 04:53 AM
You certainly couldn't define humans as a "light race" .
Do you think all dwarves and elves are good ? They are same as humans . Not all of them are on the light side :) . But when the orcs come , they unite and defend their lands .
I know another game , where armies of humans , dwarves and elves are on the light side , armies of barbs and amazons are neutrals , but orcs , necros and dark elves are on the dark side . But I will not tell you the name of this game , cuz it can be an advertising :) .

Winterwolf00
12-17-2010, 01:37 PM
Do you think all dwarves and elves are good ? They are same as humans . Not all of them are on the light side :) . But when the orcs come , they unite and defend their lands .
I know another game , where armies of humans , dwarves and elves are on the light side , armies of barbs and amazons are neutrals , but orcs , necros and dark elves are on the dark side . But I will not tell you the name of this game , cuz it can be an advertising :) .

That sounds like World of Battles :D

nikole95.7
01-03-2011, 12:41 AM
:p
I suppose if you have to axe either humans, elves, orcs or dwarves then the logical choice is dwarves. I just hope they are the next in line.

As for dragons.. weird but interesting idea. Is there anywhere I can read about the original concept of a playable race of dragons?

So the dwarf cities will be underground? I'm wondering how the fighting would work. Will you have to travel into the cave and will the game map than be loaded as a map completely inside the cave


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Espadachim
01-04-2011, 07:13 PM
Can't remember which one it was, but there was once a fantasy RTS released which had "good races" - elves and something, "dark races" - orcs and trolls, and humans fell into the 'neutral' catagory. I thought it was an interesting concept.Age of Wonders?

You certainly couldn't define humans as a "light race" . Do you think all dwarves and elves are good ? They are same as humans . Not all of them are on the light side . But when the orcs come , they unite and defend their lands .I agree.

(In a side note, I find most elves in games incredibly annoying, with their 'superiority'. That's why I enjoy when a huge human army comes and stomps them and burn the trees down. Hell yeah. :D)

raedwulfrum
01-19-2011, 03:30 AM
Sieges in large underground dwarven cities would be truly epic. Was actually thinking about this earlier after playing through dwarven region in Dragon Age. Defensively the dwarfs look quite good, except for the one weak point which is to enemy tunnels causing constant ambush. Still fun.

Manasky
01-19-2011, 08:32 AM
Age of Wonders?

I believe it was Age of Wonders, but I don't remember if (or how) it affected diplomacy with other factions. Could you team up with other factions?

reddot
01-20-2011, 02:11 AM
imo dwarves are the best possible race in any kind of game where they are =D

they are just so awesome, especially with theyr architechture <3

Toven
01-20-2011, 02:34 AM
What are you nuts? I'd rather have my own race of nano tech machines, constantly forming different shapes and sizes, with mass replication able to produce millions of troops in moments from massive areial fortresses that triple as construction, transport and offensive/defensive fortress with AA cannons and one massive beam cannon. Soldier units would be able to reconstruct themselves and the larger soldier units would be able to solidify their armor before being hit rendering the attack ineffective. Of course there's one major flaw but by the time you figure it out your race is long gone.

-Insert evil laugh here-

Braindawg
01-20-2011, 02:52 AM
Arg who ever heard of a dwarven chariot? What do they have tracks underground? First one round the stalactite at the far end and back? JK. I mean just give them smaller/weaker mounts.

Just give them a WW1 type tank. :3

Toven
01-20-2011, 03:04 AM
Better yet give them access to the RC4. Removte controlled car with C4 explosives.

Braindawg
01-20-2011, 03:17 AM
what would dwarves use for ships though? i was thinking something like a ironclad.

Braindawg
01-20-2011, 03:20 AM
What are you nuts? I'd rather have my own race of nano tech machines, constantly forming different shapes and sizes, with mass replication able to produce millions of troops in moments from massive areial fortresses that triple as construction, transport and offensive/defensive fortress with AA cannons and one massive beam cannon. Soldier units would be able to reconstruct themselves and the larger soldier units would be able to solidify their armor before being hit rendering the attack ineffective. Of course there's one major flaw but by the time you figure it out your race is long gone.

-Insert evil laugh here-

thats an amazing idea, have one super op race which destroys everything, gives the players a common enemy to work together against.

Rycon
01-20-2011, 07:51 AM
Would prefer to have had dwarves rather then elves but it think there is something for everyone with the 3 races available

Seroni
01-20-2011, 07:53 AM
I don't think they should have dwarves, they need another evil race. The undead would be a good choice, A more magic orientated race who could raise fallen foes. Giant bone dragons that could eat people whole, now thats a scary idea!:eek:

SonicMonkey
01-20-2011, 11:23 AM
I don't think they should have dwarves, they need another evil race. The undead would be a good choice, A more magic orientated race who could raise fallen foes. Giant bone dragons that could eat people whole, now thats a scary idea!:eek:

I'm so tired of undead. Dwarves are alright...but they don't meet the height requirement for this game :)

If we are going other evil races, i'd rather see something like an evil faction of humans who worship a dark god or something.

Braindawg
01-20-2011, 12:55 PM
the evil race could be gremlins that increase their population by jumping into water, and eat everything in sight. They could also steal your horses and weapons. :D

McGti
01-20-2011, 12:56 PM
Aren't Gremlins the evil version of dwars?

Henry Martin
01-20-2011, 12:59 PM
Aren't Gremlins the evil version of dwars?

Nope they are the evil version of Gizmo:p

Thunderborn
01-20-2011, 01:10 PM
Should have done Elves as part of faerie. Then could have introduced storylines about Queen Maab and Titania and all of the Seelie and Unseelie court. There is a whole ton of types of troops depending if you are of the Seelie Court like Brownie, Ferrishyn, Selkies, and Leprechauns or with the Unseelie court are Bogies, Bogles, Boggars, Abbylubbers and Buttery spirits. Thats where you get your Light elves and Dark elves too. ARE YOU A GOOD WITCH or a BAD WITCH! HAHAHAHA sorry got carried away :P

Chaoticuss
01-20-2011, 01:17 PM
Dwarf mercenaries as well as dragon mercenaries will likely exist, as for them being their own races only time will tell.

Is there a great benefit from hiring mercs or would it be better to just keep your army as your faction?

Braindawg
01-20-2011, 07:33 PM
Aren't Gremlins the evil version of dwars?

gnomes are the evil version of dwarves, their crafty little monsters always ploting to steal your socks! :D

Paffp
01-20-2011, 07:35 PM
Dwarfs would be a good idea, the tunnels used as super high ways, and would require elf or men allys on trade for food, since they will mostly be under ground getting the most gold or silver, which in trade can be a better bartering system for other players

Braindawg
01-20-2011, 10:46 PM
and perhaps uncovering ancient slumbering monsters that will invade your city from the inside.

Crunchygoblin
01-20-2011, 11:31 PM
They should be added, or demons or something like that.

Zabu
01-21-2011, 02:46 AM
I'm being a bid dwarf fan too, let's wait for them :D

Negthareas
01-21-2011, 09:31 AM
thats an amazing idea, have one super op race which destroys everything, gives the players a common enemy to work together against.
Though, perahps a bit out of, eh, theme, don't you think? More Sci-fi fantasy than medieval. I however, still think each race should remain neutral rather than going good/evil on the races in general.

Braindawg
01-21-2011, 12:32 PM
Yes and besides, good and evil are just different points of view which in this case depend on the players if all the races are neutral.