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View Full Version : Moats, Tunneling


Lord_Itzalak
01-07-2010, 06:59 PM
I did not read anything in the "how to build a wall" section about moats. Several upgrades were mentioned about fortifying walls, but this was not...the only game I ever played with a moat was Lords of the Realm II. I don't know if adding this would be unlikely due to the impenetrable castle syndrome that you are trying to avoid, but I would like to see a moat upgrade.

A second thought is that also I remember reading that armies often sent tunnelers underneath walls to weaken them and induce a collapsing. And the besieged enemy sent counter tunnelers. I have NEVER seen this in a game. Could this perhaps be the poor man's way into the castle?

Josh Warner
01-07-2010, 07:34 PM
I did not read anything in the "how to build a wall" section about moats. Several upgrades were mentioned about fortifying walls, but this was not...the only game I ever played with a moat was Lords of the Realm II. I don't know if adding this would be unlikely due to the impenetrable castle syndrome that you are trying to avoid, but I would like to see a moat upgrade.

A second thought is that also I remember reading that armies often sent tunnelers underneath walls to weaken them and induce a collapsing. And the besieged enemy sent counter tunnelers. I have NEVER seen this in a game. Could this perhaps be the poor man's way into the castle?


Heh, Lords of the Realm II. I don't know if any of the other devs played that, it was one of my favorites though. I have the CD and it's case sitting on my desk right now, have a DoS emulator for it. Was a fun game, and yeah moats were fantastic. I don't really think something like either of those things are possible though. The tunneling to collapse a wall MAYBE, moats would just alter the gameplay too much I think. But it's not something I would work on so perhaps I'm wrong, it's certainly an interesting idea.

Darathor
01-07-2010, 07:58 PM
There was a screenshot of a human city surrounded by a river. Also, in rome total war at least, you could sap the walls, which is very similar to "tunneling."

blackfang
01-07-2010, 11:53 PM
For me sapping the walls or just weakening them would not be so fun, as it is to make a tunnel straight in and take the enemy by surprise:D

Puppeteer
01-08-2010, 07:48 AM
Just like Stronghold ;)
I know that you can use natural features (like a river) to your own advantage for a quasi-moat effect. Other than that I don't think you can dig your own moats. I doubt on the tunnelling front either - something for the Dwarves in the next edition, mayhap?

Negthareas
01-08-2010, 05:05 PM
I think being able to construct moats is a good idea, but there would have to be units designed to counter them. At this point in the game, I believe all of the units are set, right? It's too late to be asking the guys in Reverie to be pulling new units out of their hats.

The Witch King of Angmar
01-09-2010, 09:36 AM
I remeber one screen where a castle was on an island type of thing and there was a bridge across a moat to the front gate, however, I don't know if that would classify as a moat due to the fact that there wouldn't be a drawbridge.

Thanks

Darathor
01-09-2010, 12:31 PM
I remeber one screen where a castle was on an island type of thing and there was a bridge across a moat to the front gate, however, I don't know if that would classify as a moat due to the fact that there wouldn't be a drawbridge.

Thanks

I think that was the screenshot I was trying to remember. There were also several towers on the other side of the moat or river or whatever that had bridges connecting to the walls. That would be one thing to help balance it out and not make siege towers useless if attacking that sort of castle.

blackfang
01-10-2010, 04:18 AM
when i am to design my village i will definitely chose the ones with rivers if i can!Hopefully a river with only one bridge:) i love water inside or outside the castle doesn't matter as long as it stops the enemy;) i would love to have moats too tough i love the river thing more:)

massenic
01-10-2010, 04:26 AM
And I'll just surround your castle, poison the water and wait until you die!;)

I'm having mixed feeling about having moats. It sure sounds cool to have them, but it's dangerous to make castles just so strong that they can't be conquered anymore.

And having them would change a lot in the player's tactics so don't know if the dev's still have time now for something like this.

blackfang
01-10-2010, 08:22 AM
what about only one wall if you are to use rivers/moats? it would be great to use the river:D

zach12wqasxz
01-11-2010, 06:38 AM
i posted a topic exaclty like this when i first joined 7 months ago, it got shot down crazy fast though....i cried....just kidding

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 01:04 AM
In regards to tunnelling.

Usually the reason for this is to destabilize the walls rather than infiltrate... I mean imagine sending a ragtag group against a well establish enemy in their own turf inside a choke point... Nope... but what they do is built the tunnel underneath the wall foundations, support it with work... then burn the wood supports, causing parts of the wall to crumble. Now.. if its so simple why haven't so many castles fallen to this tactic? Well, its because 60-90% of all the castles out there are built on solid bedrock or have foundations going several feet deep. The rest either have moats/sandy/wet surroundings or even have multiple layers of wall fortifications. All in all sapping somehow imbalance the game or in it self rendered moot and unnecessary.

And since moats were a main defense over sapping (rather than an attack)... they would also be quite unnecessary.

My opinion would be to just build yourself ridiculously sexy defense rings of walls and mount on them over powered defenders.

And to take them down... pop out some trebuchets/catapults weaken large sections then take them all down at the same time and bust into that large hole in the wall.

Yami-Yagari
05-17-2010, 02:00 AM
My opinion would be to just build yourself ridiculously sexy defense rings of walls and mount on them over powered defenders.

And to take them down... pop out some trebuchets/catapults weaken large sections then take them all down at the same time and bust into that large hole in the wall.

Yes, walls have a bigger coolness factor the moats. :cool:
Really, whats the entire point of adding another moat to rings of walls, with anti siege equipment on them and hordes of soldiers?

LoveToKill
05-17-2010, 02:09 AM
Well my honest 2 cents would be somewhat of a compromise maybe a river in the middle of a battle field allthough that for everyone would be a bit odd but it could offer another point to do battle good in the since the attacker may be able to lure there advisary out of the castle and for the defender to perhaps lighten any damage that could/would be inflicted to his towns Allthough moats i agree wouldjust screw it up but rivers somehow running through everyones stuff while nice and id love it in rain would be weird and insteadof sappers why not someone who candig trap holes and just have troopsfall to there death but limit the number you can putdown to like 3 - 5 since unit caps seem to be like 3k though i dont seeit being aproblem for more then again i havent played the game yet so i cant give an answer honestly on how it would work

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 02:49 AM
Yes, walls have a bigger coolness factor the moats. :cool:
Really, whats the entire point of adding another moat to rings of walls, with anti siege equipment on them and hordes of soldiers?

Ambiance? ... frontside pool?:cool: ... property values?... FISHING?!?!??!...

I dunno love... what might be neat would be a river running THROUGH a castle... hell they wouldn't be a point to it... but it would look awesome.... somehow..

Yami-Yagari
05-17-2010, 02:56 AM
Ambiance? ... frontside pool?:cool: ... property values?... FISHING?!?!??!...

I dunno love... what might be neat would be a river running THROUGH a castle... hell they wouldn't be a point to it... but it would look awesome.... somehow..

Well, the NPC city Darssen has a river running throught the city. So it could be possible yes.:o
I'd rather build around the foot of the mountains myself, and hopefully move my building up for a Minas Tirith effect.

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 03:19 AM
...rather than a river... id like to build besides a cliff... more of that bad guy thing with maybe storms raging overhead...

LoveToKill
05-17-2010, 03:25 AM
And then they added there new rock falladd on patch :x

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 03:39 AM
...your being sucha wet blanket ><.

But my endpoint still is tunnelling-moats probably wont happen, UNLESS they decide to put moats on NPC/Event Fortresses... give those castles an additionaly challenge to overcome.

LoveToKill
05-17-2010, 03:48 AM
I agree though man i cansee logicaly howmoats couldbe put in however i cant really see tunnlein. and moats way to OP thenits get 1 batof swords and pike then mass archers and light thechoke up

Yami-Yagari
05-17-2010, 03:49 AM
...your being sucha wet blanket ><.

But my endpoint still is tunnelling-moats probably wont happen, UNLESS they decide to put moats on NPC/Event Fortresses... give those castles an additionaly challenge to overcome.

Have to agree, moats will probly not happen, or at least not for a while.

blackfang
05-17-2010, 07:35 AM
what about oil pits, going viking style and use wale oil in a huge pool to burn a evil creature. Or in this case alot of smaller ones:rolleyes:

Yami-Yagari
05-17-2010, 07:38 AM
what about oil pits, going viking style and use wale oil in a huge pool to burn a evil creature. Or in this case alot of smaller ones:rolleyes:

Nice idea, but unlikely :(

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 07:39 AM
did you watch a certain movie lately? with certain vikings and certain aliens?

blackfang
05-17-2010, 07:39 AM
did you watch a certain movie lately? with certain vikings and certain aliens?

yes, its called outlander or something i don't really remember:p

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 07:44 AM
I believe that was it! I dont think they actually made oil pits though... oil was like currency back then... considering how people died hunting whales... but they did on occation dump them on people and set them on fire from atop walls. not in pits though... oil easily seeps into the ground once its spilt.

blackfang
05-17-2010, 07:47 AM
Well they had a huge pool and as i remember the main character said "what do you use in the forges?" He was answered with "we use wood" and then he asked "then what do you use in the lamps?" And then they answered "We use whale oil." Then he said "good we will use that." So most likely they used all their wale oil:rolleyes:

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 07:51 AM
ya , it was a neat movie. but it think that time was a special case ^^. usually they just have ditches in the ground filled with stakes .

blackfang
05-17-2010, 07:59 AM
yeah well you remember how the main character loved fire when he and the others used it against those same monsters when they wanted their planet? I guess thats why they use fire now because the main character had a fire fetish:o

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 08:13 AM
...i cant help but blink at how you came to that conclusion... fire fetish...

blackfang
05-17-2010, 08:16 AM
well people have SM fetishes, maid fetishes, cat fetishes, foot fetishes and many more. The amount of fetishes equals the number of objects and actions out there. So of course once in a while somewhere there gotta be people with fire fetishes:rolleyes:

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 08:29 AM
... i know that >< but they're usually called pyromaniacs....

otomotopia
05-17-2010, 02:24 PM
Oh lord.

Anyway, back on topic :D

Buildable moats do not exist, but take a loot at any of the numerous screenshots- there is a chokepoint in most seige maps. That's usually a bridge crossing a chasm (sp), or a body of water limiting movement, and I've even seen ridges blocking movement. However, it looks like you're either going over or through walls/gates, not under. Sapping/explosive units could work to damage walls, and we may see some transportation magic, but that's about as far as I can see the developers going. The art side of tunneling is tough, and the programing/pathfinding side will not be having a good day with the bugs this feature could create.

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 06:10 PM
Oh lord.

Anyway, back on topic :D
but that's about as far as I can see the developers going. The art side of tunneling is tough, and the programing/pathfinding side will not be having a good day with the bugs this feature could create.

hah... and finally someone pops in the technical side that i was too lazy to mention, and a great point too. other than seeing moats as eye candy for mod made maps or scenarios, you probably wont have an option of getting yourself one, and sapping... more than likely not gonna happen... like i said... just throw big exploding things at the walls... its cooler that way...:)

Negthareas
05-17-2010, 07:26 PM
Still, explosives should be one of the only ways of taking out a wall - even so, It should take a lot of them. In Helm's Deep [LOTR] the reason gunpowderwas so effective is because the walls were not built with gunpowder in mind. Think, however, of walls that were, like those of Constantinople that withstood months of Turkish cannonfire and still did not crumble.

I really did not like how damaging the mines of Isenguard were in BFME2 [and 1 - but it was not as much of a problem] I think the way they had it in Age of Kings with Petards was good - though maybe more powerful. In any case - explosive units should cost a heck, and only be effective in certain circumstances.

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 07:29 PM
[QUOTE=Negthareas;28815]Still, explosives should be one of the only ways of taking out a wall - even so, It should take a lot of them. In Helm's Deep [LOTR] the reason gunpowderwas so effective is because the walls were not built with gunpowder in mind. Think, however, of walls that were, like those of Constantinople that withstood months of Turkish cannonfire and still did not crumble.[QUOTE]

THAT movie scene was redicously over done... the fact was in the book the breach on the wall wasnt even that big...

Negthareas
05-17-2010, 07:34 PM
It might have been seriously overdone, but sadly, it was the basis for the gameplay concerning Isenguard's mines.

Aelfwine
05-17-2010, 08:22 PM
hmmm i havent played those 2 games you mentioned yet =\ so i cant quite picture what your saying... do a simile ^^

LoveToKill
05-17-2010, 08:37 PM
Now heres a serious question why wouldyou blow up the walls instead just rain rocks into the city and when they flee take em out :x take out there resources and at some point they starve to death or fight with nowall support :x

Yami-Yagari
05-18-2010, 03:27 AM
Now heres a serious question why wouldyou blow up the walls instead just rain rocks into the city and when they flee take em out :x take out there resources and at some point they starve to death or fight with nowall support :x

Yeah, if they were to implement mines and gunpowder, there wouldn't really be that much use to all those other siege equipment, now would there?
Might as easily just make tons of mines, walk to the wall and BOOM, there dead.

LoveToKill
05-18-2010, 10:24 AM
lol i ment use your sige equipment to instead of blowing holes into there wallsto destroy them from the inside andmake them come out and fight you, and since they have to leave through a gate you could just sit backwatch and be ready to kill them as they attempt to leave there gates

blackfang
05-18-2010, 10:40 AM
lol i ment use your sige equipment to instead of blowing holes into there wallsto destroy them from the inside andmake them come out and fight you, and since they have to leave through a gate you could just sit backwatch and be ready to kill them as they attempt to leave there gates

Most likely every castle got underground places like bomb shelters, even if its just a house it can probably take one or two balls. Also you want the inner parts of a castle to be alive so when you conquer it then it won't be that much of a hassle to rebuild:)

LoveToKill
05-18-2010, 10:50 AM
i thought it was said you cant take over castles just restart baseicly and remake a new one, thus burning your advisaries to the grnd seems to be a better idea then the traditional i blow up the walls i losehalfmeh forces runnig and then another chunk to whats ever left alive

blackfang
05-18-2010, 11:04 AM
i thought it was said you cant take over castles just restart baseicly and remake a new one, thus burning your advisaries to the grnd seems to be a better idea then the traditional i blow up the walls i losehalfmeh forces runnig and then another chunk to whats ever left alive

however you get twice that amount of workforce and half that force back in half a years time if you keep the people inside relatively unhurt:D

LoveToKill
05-18-2010, 11:06 AM
LoL Yes You do lose out onsome resources but adventully there will be a point where that wont matter i was just throwin out something diffrent just away to silence thy enemies

blackfang
05-18-2010, 11:08 AM
LoL Yes You do lose out onsome resources but adventully there will be a point where that wont matter i was just throwin out something diffrent just away to silence thy enemies

if you are out just to get revenge on the people then putting a torch to their houses and poisoning their water should be acceptable, at least you are not using gas on them:)

LoveToKill
05-18-2010, 11:11 AM
LoL who said it was revenge just something pretty to do befor Like most Browser games it gets boreing and you end up moveing on to your next title allthough since this one has graphics who know alsoit will have alota new content as time goes on so meh

blackfang
05-18-2010, 11:17 AM
LoL who said it was revenge just something pretty to do befor Like most Browser games it gets boreing and you end up moveing on to your next title allthough since this one has graphics who know alsoit will have alota new content as time goes on so meh

So basically you would let it burn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDiM4mhge_Q&feature=fvst)? Well it would be kinda fun:)

LoveToKill
05-18-2010, 11:23 AM
ofcourse im an evil orc if i cant have it no one can :x

blackfang
05-18-2010, 11:26 AM
But if you win then you would have it... I don't get your logic, and i am a logical person.

LoveToKill
05-18-2010, 11:27 AM
you cant capture cities though so how would i have it?

blackfang
05-18-2010, 01:19 PM
you would probably give all the children lolipops. And if it were me i would poison them to start a plague:rolleyes:

Negthareas
05-18-2010, 02:22 PM
However.... The sieges in the game are not going to last long enough for the people to starve, etc. - they never will come running out of their city to flee. The only reason they would come out is to counterattack. Mines might be useful as a dwarf siege weapon, as long as it is realistic in it scope and power, speed, cost, etc..

Yami-Yagari
05-18-2010, 02:30 PM
Its possible for dwarves, seeing as they live in the ideal region to mine sulfur. It would most likely be a dwarf only unit, seeing as they don´t have any cavalry.

Negthareas
05-18-2010, 02:37 PM
Or even give them crude cannons - it might not be too powered. Think of the war of the roses in England. The Queen brought an entire array of guns, but since it was raining, and other things, it hardly effected the battle at all. She lost. Something like that could have a good range and counteract the slower dwarves units [lack of cavalry].

LoveToKill
05-18-2010, 02:40 PM
i see your point neg but maybe im willing to sit there all day till they run outa food i have to imagine burning most of there food to the ground and then leting them bleed out maynot take to long but i agree it would be a long process

Yami-Yagari
05-18-2010, 02:50 PM
i see your point neg but maybe im willing to sit there all day till they run outa food i have to imagine burning most of there food to the ground and then leting them bleed out maynot take to long but i agree it would be a long process

Before that happens they´ll either get reinforcements, payed you off or get forced into battle.

LoveToKill
05-18-2010, 03:14 PM
imhopeing for the later of the 3, and id only use the tactic if i thought i could take his army by itself and if the game was in early enough development aka No real guilds + late at Night Go Go

Yami-Yagari
05-18-2010, 04:04 PM
imhopeing for the later of the 3, and id only use the tactic if i thought i could take his army by itself and if the game was in early enough development aka No real guilds + late at Night Go Go

Kinda depends. Even if it gets to be a forced fight, you still have to siege him. And sieging either human or elven stronghold will be a tough cookie. Of course you could attack other orc players, if your armies average firepower is bigger then his. He'll only need a few ogres at the breach in order to fight you off.

LoveToKill
05-18-2010, 04:16 PM
imjust trying to figure a way to force my enemy to give up there walls and fight a battle that would be common thus improveing my odds of sigein there castle

Yami-Yagari
05-18-2010, 04:46 PM
imjust trying to figure a way to force my enemy to give up there walls and fight a battle that would be common thus improveing my odds of sigein there castle

I'd say go either siege towers or ladders. Frontal gate won't work, seeing that their ranged units will mow down plenty or your troops in the process. Best to take siege towers, since they have more hp then regular siege ladders. And now just some, but talking about like 15 or so (maybe even more, like 30 if its possible). Then you'll be able to overrun their walls with ease, without having severe casualties by arrow fire.

Negthareas
05-19-2010, 03:45 PM
I'd say go either siege towers or ladders. Frontal gate won't work, seeing that their ranged units will mow down plenty or your troops in the process. Best to take siege towers, since they have more hp then regular siege ladders. And now just some, but talking about like 15 or so (maybe even more, like 30 if its possible). Then you'll be able to overrun their walls with ease, without having severe casualties by arrow fire.

Or, rather, having some severe casaulties, but having enough towers anyway. Think: a good human player would focus his firepower to destory as many towers as possible, not spread it out over each one. AI might do that. But, then again, so might poor players.

Yami-Yagari
05-19-2010, 04:32 PM
Or, rather, having some severe casaulties, but having enough towers anyway. Think: a good human player would focus his firepower to destory as many towers as possible, not spread it out over each one. AI might do that. But, then again, so might poor players.

Well, he did ask a tactic which would let enemy player give up his walls, and i gave him 1. Against human castles it might get tricky, but against elven castle it is definitely a good tactic, seeing it would render their archers near useless when in melee combat, and comparing ballista with trebuchet, the ballista doesn´t have nearly as much firepower.

Negthareas
05-19-2010, 07:43 PM
Well, he did ask a tactic which would let enemy player give up his walls, and i gave him 1. Against human castles it might get tricky, but against elven castle it is definitely a good tactic, seeing it would render their archers near useless when in melee combat, and comparing ballista with trebuchet, the ballista doesn´t have nearly as much firepower.

Right -the elven bladestorms might be powerful, but they would still need a lot of them to hold the gap. That is one thing to look into -are units able to walk through other units - or can you form a "wall" of units? Also, we don't know the capabilities of the elvish ballista yet, I think.

LoveToKill
05-19-2010, 08:12 PM
Well honestly iimagine that you can wall with units

blackfang
05-20-2010, 05:28 AM
Well honestly iimagine that you can wall with units

that would be awesome, Go RTW style:D

GPS51
05-20-2010, 08:32 AM
Yeah like in age3 with invisible ninja walls>>until someone comes with a counter spy and cannon. All fall down.