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View Full Version : Shooters and RPG's dominate the industry.


Argargeroth
11-06-2009, 01:49 PM
Every highly anticipated game that is comming out right now or at least within 3 months time appear to be shooters and RPG's, or in one case a hybrid called Borderlands. Now I like shooters like everyone else. But where are the RTS's??!?! Dawn of Fantasy looks like it'll be a good game. I'm bummed the dragons where cut, but still. We need some good RTS's to pull us out of this rump. I'm a console player, 'cause I can never seem to hold on to a gaming computer. So I really just hope this game will work on my Xbox, and really just be a good tight game.

LiTos456
11-06-2009, 02:08 PM
Shooters ftw! And borderlands is awesome!
Dont worry DoF will be one of those games that's just THERE and has a large fanbase.

nickson104
11-06-2009, 02:32 PM
All genres of games have their place, None are more important than another...

RTS isnt as widely accepted as shooters or RPG's as they require concentration and it is easy to lose, shooters and RPG's you can just pick up and play easily...

Henry Martin
11-06-2009, 03:26 PM
Most Companies produce games that are in favor (show the signs of making money the most). So the other genres are put on the back burner until. Its mostly a trend thing like other stuff.

Blame the publisher who are the ones dictating the stuff.:(

Puppeteer
11-06-2009, 04:10 PM
If you must blame someone, the blame lies with the public with their darned opinions. Publishers will profiteer, what they make is predominantly influenced by the public.

Josh Warner
11-06-2009, 04:51 PM
If you must blame someone, the blame lies with the public with their darned opinions. Publishers will profiteer, what they make is predominantly influenced by the public.

Blame the shepard not the sheep. ;)

Henry Martin
11-06-2009, 05:33 PM
If you must blame someone, the blame lies with the public with their darned opinions. Publishers will profiteer, what they make is predominantly influenced by the public.

Blame the shepard not the sheep. ;)

Good point, but the Publisher don't have to get to the point where they are pushing out games with llttle change and sell it likes it's a whole new game.

The Witch King of Angmar
11-06-2009, 07:07 PM
Blame the shepard not the sheep. ;)

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............................gyros . :p I do enjoy both of these types of games, however, I'm not a fan of all the gore in them.

Josh Warner
11-06-2009, 08:44 PM
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............................gyros . :p I do enjoy both of these types of games, however, I'm not a fan of all the gore in them.

I enjoy every kind of game, except rhythm games I suppose.

nickson104
11-07-2009, 06:25 AM
I enjoy every kind of game, except rhythm games I suppose.

I like yet dislike all types of games too... I like all genres, but some games within those genres I just CANNOT play... It is not only the genre that makes the game what it is...

Supreme
11-07-2009, 09:15 AM
All I enjoyed was in the Sims was trapping my guys and burn the house! Awesome!

Other than that i play/enjoy or have played every type of game.

Puppeteer
11-07-2009, 11:05 AM
Good point, but the Publisher don't have to get to the point where they are pushing out games with llttle change and sell it likes it's a whole new game.
They do if that's where the big market is. Publishers are out there solely to make money, it's the developers who are enthusiastic to make whatever game they want. Hence it's not the fault of the publishers. If you want more RTS games to come out, their must be sufficient public interest to make it financially worthwhile.

Henry Martin
11-07-2009, 01:03 PM
They do if that's where the big market is. Publishers are out there solely to make money, it's the developers who are enthusiastic to make whatever game they want. Hence it's not the fault of the publishers. If you want more RTS games to come out, their must be sufficient public interest to make it financially worthwhile.

Yes it is the publishers fault as like you said they are out to make money and so they will take less chance of innovation and instead saturates the market with clones until sales are down. I will blame the public not the gamers as core gamers only make up a small percentage where as the public makes up around 70 to more percentage which makes the publisher money.

don't ban me for disagreeing with you.:eek:

Swift sword
11-07-2009, 01:16 PM
I'll admit it, I love rpgs. Always have, always will. The difference (I think) between people like me and hardcore WoW players is that they are...hardcore. I can't stick playing any one game all the time for even 6 months. I'll get bored of it, move to something else, and then move back 6 months later.
Fortunately, this mostly has to do with MMORPGs. Games like Fire Emblem escape this affliction- I'll play it alot for a few months and then every once in a while, then all the time again.
I'm not a big shooter fan, I only play them at parties of on other rare occasions. They're fun, but get boring unless I play online, and even then I don't last long on them...

I agree though, they're the most common games. They're easy to pick up and usually easy to put down, with little real skill required. A game like this requires consistant practice or else you'll probably lose your touch.

Puppeteer
11-08-2009, 03:21 AM
Yes it is the publishers fault as like you said they are out to make money and so they will take less chance of innovation and instead saturates the market with clones until sales are down.
And? Their aim is to first of all make money, and then please the public. If there are far more people who want FPS games then RTS games, then you can't blame them for heading for where the money is - they have to make a living too, you know.

I will blame the public not the gamers
You're confusing yourself now.

Josh Warner
11-08-2009, 03:30 AM
And? Their aim is to first of all make money, and then please the public. If there are far more people who want FPS games then RTS games, then you can't blame them for heading for where the money is - they have to make a living too, you know.


You're confusing yourself now.

Publishers have more say than you're giving them credit for on what sells. Advertising has a huge sway over the public, most of the people that buy games are not enthusiasts who shop around and read reviews, they see something then buy it if it looks 'cool' according to the commercial/ad. Of course the potential market for these titles is higher, but the saturation is also worse. Several publishers have proven making solid niche titles turns a good profit, most are just stuck on relying for broadest appeal fluke successes and pumping out as many titles as possible to score those big hits.

nickson104
11-08-2009, 04:13 AM
Publishers have more say than you're giving them credit for on what sells. Advertising has a huge sway over the public, most of the people that buy games are not enthusiasts who shop around and read reviews, they see something then buy it if it looks 'cool' according to the commercial/ad. Of course the potential market for these titles is higher, but the saturation is also worse. Several publishers have proven making solid niche titles turns a good profit, most are just stuck on relying for broadest appeal fluke successes and pumping out as many titles as possible to score those big hits.

I think this may be of interest to you people :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_publisher#Selected_video_game_publisher s
Some of the publishers there have done well in their niche market, others... have benefited from copious amounts of games...

And I think respect is needed for the former pubishers and developers...
I shall miss you Westwood and Hasbro, You who dominated my childhood and turned me to the darkside...

Josh Warner
11-08-2009, 06:58 AM
I think this may be of interest to you people :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_publisher#Selected_video_game_publisher s
Some of the publishers there have done well in their niche market, others... have benefited from copious amounts of games...

And I think respect is needed for the former pubishers and developers...
I shall miss you Westwood and Hasbro, You who dominated my childhood and turned me to the darkside...

I know that was my point, both are profitable.

And I'm not sure about hasbro, but I definitely miss the old westwood.

Henry Martin
11-08-2009, 10:12 AM
And? Their aim is to first of all make money, and then please the public. If there are far more people who want FPS games then RTS games, then you can't blame them for heading for where the money is - they have to make a living too, you know.

You're confusing yourself now.

I know they have to make a living, but they are doing so with lack of innovation (not totally).

what I meant for the the "Public" was "Casual" as they are the ones who buy because it looks cool (like josh Warner said). Like I said the Casual market is larger than the core market by far which is what the publishers are making most of there products for.

nickson104
11-08-2009, 11:32 AM
And I'm not sure about hasbro, but I definitely miss the old westwood.

Westwood deserves to be missed... The C&C games just arent the same any more... :(
Hasbro i only miss because it focused on childs games, it was one company that certainly dominated my gaming as a child... Between Hasbros games, Westwood's games and AoE i spent my childhood... XD :p

Puppeteer
11-08-2009, 04:01 PM
Like I said the Casual market is larger than the core market by far which is what the publishers are making most of there products for.
You're not really contesting my point there, moreover complimenting it. The biggest market is obvious the casual gamer, and that's where the money is - lots of publishers won't waste resources on RTS if they aren't going to make as much money. Blame the lack of innovation of the public then, if you will blame someone, who've made it this way.

Joseph Visscher
11-09-2009, 09:12 AM
If you must blame someone, the blame lies with the public with their darned opinions. Publishers will profiteer, what they make is predominantly influenced by the public.

Right on, to harsly add to this, which I'm sure many will hate me for: why I think rpgs and fps are at the top is because RTS requires much more intellect and brain power to even play. Dumb people,,, which is alot of people playing nothing but video games instead of finishing homework or work, find it alot easier on their brain while playing mmorpg or fps because its reliant on more of your hand reactions and less of your brain.
Look at TV for example, from the 80s to now, how,,, ahem, 'Stupider' has it gotten from then to now? 'Bill Nye The Science Guy' to 'Family Guy'? Media feeds only the majority, and well, "The Majority are idiots."

A second reason is because of graphics, FPS is able to utilize the best graphics on the smallest scale, they are able to render a total of 25 ai on 300 foot long map! :eek:, still more pollygons then a 1000 units in dof :p

Supreme
11-09-2009, 09:17 AM
So I cant play RTS games and still like Family guy? Is that what your saying?

Chris Harshman
11-09-2009, 09:22 AM
So I cant play RTS games and still like Family guy? Is that what your saying?

No not at all, you can enjoy family guy and still love RTS games.I do at least :)

Darvin
11-09-2009, 01:03 PM
Think about it, guys. The average shooter and RPG takes 4-6 hours to clear and has only token (that is to say, nothing worthwhile) replayability. In other words, players move from one game on to the next fairly quickly, which in turn creates a market for lots of different games to exist.

What I've heard is that even though shooters and RPG's dominate the genre, they are really risky because they still have trouble turning a profit. The problem is that if you have fewer than 8 hours of unique content you run the risk of a large number of people just renting the game, or returning it as a used game very soon after release, because they beat it over the weekend. If you have more than 8 hours of unique content... needless to say, that's a big investment on your part.

They may get less glory and attention, but RTS games are actually one of the more reliable genres for turning a profit.

Henry Martin
11-09-2009, 01:50 PM
Puppeteer I agree with you, but I blame the public for there opinions and I blame the publisher for exploiting it. Just because someone wants it doesn't mean you have to give it to them, like sports games I like a play a football game every so often, but when you are releasing the same game every year show how innovative (sarcastic) the company is and how stupid the public is. I know companies have to make money (like anyone else), but it should affect innovation and quality.

Joseph Visscher I think some RPGs require intellect (I'm not including MMORPGS, and after saying that I feel like having a mountain dew:D ). RTSs have there bad games just like any other genre (a lot of WW2 RTSs). I enjoy Family Guy and I loved Bill Nye the Science Guy.

Darvin there are a lot of RPGs that take way longer than 4-6 hours (I would say close to 10-20 for rpgs, platform also effects time). I got Dragon Age Origins and I already put 20hrs into it. Shooters yes they are games that you go through fast in the same day (if you have the time).

I enjoy more than just gameplay about games. I enjoy the storytelling, the graphics (nothing wrong with looking at beauty), I enjoy admiring level layout and design or just the whole art side of games.

I didn't mean to take this too far off topic (just giving an opinion), sorry

Puppeteer
11-09-2009, 02:47 PM
You're not off topic, on the contrary this is the topic for it!
Also, don't indicate when you're being sarcastic, it ruins the effect :p
Puppeteer I agree with you, but I blame the public for there opinions and I blame the publisher for exploiting it. Just because someone wants it doesn't mean you have to give it to them, like sports games I like a play a football game every so often, but when you are releasing the same game every year show how innovative (sarcastic) the company is and how stupid the public is. I know companies have to make money (like anyone else), but it should affect innovation and quality.
Well I don't see the dominance of the FPS and, to a lesser extent, the RPG genres subsiding any time soon, indicating there is still a huge demand for them. Unfortunately for you, and for many others on this board, you belong to the comparatively neglected echelons of gamers who favour the RTS genre.
Go convert the public, and these innovation-less publishers shall switch from the FPS genre to the RTS genre!

Darvin
11-09-2009, 05:41 PM
Darvin there are a lot of RPGs that take way longer than 4-6 hours

Sure there are, but the longer ones aren't typical. The vast majority can be cleared in one prolonged sitting (maybe 4-6 hours is an understatement). The majority of exceptions to this short-game trend, unfortunately, are usually just chock-full of filler, which isn't so much a solution as it is trading one shortcoming for another.

I'm not saying that there aren't good games out there, because there are, but the typical stuff out there is basically the equivalent of junk food.

Go convert the public, and these innovation-less publishers shall switch from the FPS genre to the RTS genre!
Honestly, I'd rather this genre stay considered a niche market. It's one of the few places where you can find mature, sensible people. Not to say that people who play FPS/RPG are immature and unsensible, but rather that immature and unsensible people don't seem to bother with RTS.

Supreme
11-10-2009, 10:12 AM
Theres plenty of kids playing RTS, but sure, on average its more mature.

JDmino
11-11-2009, 01:04 AM
Sure there are, but the longer ones aren't typical. The vast majority can be cleared in one prolonged sitting (maybe 4-6 hours is an understatement). The majority of exceptions to this short-game trend, unfortunately, are usually just chock-full of filler, which isn't so much a solution as it is trading one shortcoming for another.

I'm not saying that there aren't good games out there, because there are, but the typical stuff out there is basically the equivalent of junk food.


Honestly, I'd rather this genre stay considered a niche market. It's one of the few places where you can find mature, sensible people. Not to say that people who play FPS/RPG are immature and unsensible, but rather that immature and unsensible people don't seem to bother with RTS.

And have you heard them online through the microphones?

In the most annoying whiny voices:
OMG!!!1! H4x0r pl0x! u so just h4x3d da game man y wud u do dat?

That is when you kill them, when you double team them:
U R SUCH A CHEATER!!!!! IF U DIDNT HAV YOR FREND U WUD BE DED AND I WUD HAV 1 DA GAME!!!!!

In other words, kids who play FPS' online, and are under the age of 14(puberty :p), should not be allowed to have microphones.

raving
11-11-2009, 07:21 AM
i always have all people muted :p. no offence to anyone but i go mental when i hear frenchies talking french or russians talking rusian. It freaks me out. :p

LiTos456
11-11-2009, 10:37 AM
Oh my god awesome once I see you in game I will soooo speak Russian on voice chat

nickson104
11-11-2009, 04:13 PM
Oh my god awesome once I see you in game I will soooo speak Russian on voice chat


Awesome, cant wait for it! I LOVE hearing other languages... but not too much of it :p If a pair of people of one language have a long heart to heart that you cannot understand, it tends to get rather irritating... But I loved being part of an international Guild in Guild Wars, we had 3 Swedish, 1 Danish, 5 French, 4 English, 1 Cypric and 1 Arabic... It was interesting :) They all spoke english well, but it was nice to have the other cultures and languages alive, and my French was improved a little with help from one of the guildies :) :p

Darvin
11-11-2009, 10:25 PM
And have you heard them online through the microphones?

You're speaking to someone who always turns off the VoIP features in-games (if they have it; since I'm mostly RTS, they generally do not). This is quite possibly one of the most abused feature in games today. In theory it's legitimate and powerful feature, but in practice you always end up with someone trash talking or playing music or doing something annoying on the other end.

Josh Warner
11-11-2009, 10:43 PM
That's why I only play with friends outside of rare occasions/just starting with a new game. VOIP is a very powerful and useful tool, but personally I prefer my ventrilo server to an in-game VOIP. More flexible and way more options. I can't imagine going back to team games without VOIP, it's integral to many of my strategies be it an FPS, RTS or MMORPG.

Darvin
11-12-2009, 12:49 AM
Now I don't see it as necessary in RTS. I can understand RPG's and FPS games where taking your fingers off the keyboard can be suicidal when you're in the thick of battle, but in a RTS you don't need to give any continuous input, so there's almost always an opening to send a brief message.

Personally I find voices to be distracting in big battles. It's much easier for me to focus on text than voice in these tense moments. I'm also notorious for not being able to multi-task a conversation. I can multi-task virtually anything else, but not a conversation for some reason.

Supreme
11-12-2009, 08:14 AM
It really depends on the kind of RTS, darvian, currently playing Heroes of Newerth (DOTA-afterbirth), which is a kind of RTS where you usually cant take the time to type.

Granted it's not as bad as a good FPS.

And agreed on the distracting bit, music & gaming is plenty, cant hold a good conversation in the meanwhile :P

Josh Warner
11-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Now I don't see it as necessary in RTS. I can understand RPG's and FPS games where taking your fingers off the keyboard can be suicidal when you're in the thick of battle, but in a RTS you don't need to give any continuous input, so there's almost always an opening to send a brief message.

Personally I find voices to be distracting in big battles. It's much easier for me to focus on text than voice in these tense moments. I'm also notorious for not being able to multi-task a conversation. I can multi-task virtually anything else, but not a conversation for some reason.

Don't need continuous input? That depends entirely on the level of play. I'm basing this on team v team tourneys not casual play, in sins for example my clan had several leaders that would be in charge of the entire team they were on, we'd assign roles, tell people what to build/how much of each to build, what our enemies movements were, if we needed our pocket players to start going military early, plenty of things. And sins is a relatively slow game, compare that to say CoH or DoW and it only gets more important.

Again, it depends entirely on how you're playing the game, for people that are playing in tournaments especially cash ones - it's just foolish not to be in constant communication. It's not as critical as an FPS in most cases, but a few seconds in an RTS can still make or break a game when you're playing at that level. The biggest reason it's not as prominent for RTSes is that most RTSes don't have a strong team v team following, it's mostly stat-based matchmaking for team v team or just 1v1s.

Darvin
11-12-2009, 01:05 PM
Don't need continuous input? That depends entirely on the level of play.
I think you misunderstood by what I mean by continuous. To move a unit in RTS, you click on it then click the destination. No continuous action is required of the player to make it continue moving. Alternatively, in most RPG or FPS games you have to hold down a button to continue moving. Letting go of the button means you stop moving. In other words, a continuous input is required to keep moving.

This continuous input means you cannot move/fight/whatever while typing a message, so this is distinctively lost time. On the other hand, in a RTS all your current orders will continue to execute, all you've lost is maybe a second or two of opportunity to make new orders.

in sins for example my clan had several leaders that would be in charge of the entire team they were on, we'd assign roles, tell people what to build/how much of each to build, what our enemies movements were, if we needed our pocket players to start going military early, plenty of things.
I play Sins too you know. It's trivial to hold a conversation in that game while making your usual moves. As I already said, continuous input isn't necessary, so you can interleave your conversation with the orders you need to give.

The biggest reason it's not as prominent for RTSes is that most RTSes don't have a strong team v team following
That much I will agree with.

Josh Warner
11-13-2009, 03:03 AM
I think you misunderstood by what I mean by continuous. To move a unit in RTS, you click on it then click the destination. No continuous action is required of the player to make it continue moving. Alternatively, in most RPG or FPS games you have to hold down a button to continue moving. Letting go of the button means you stop moving. In other words, a continuous input is required to keep moving.

This continuous input means you cannot move/fight/whatever while typing a message, so this is distinctively lost time. On the other hand, in a RTS all your current orders will continue to execute, all you've lost is maybe a second or two of opportunity to make new orders.


I play Sins too you know. It's trivial to hold a conversation in that game while making your usual moves. As I already said, continuous input isn't necessary, so you can interleave your conversation with the orders you need to give.


That much I will agree with.

Even in sins micro is important, you can't take the time to type and still be competitive mid-fight. And sins is again slow, try typing in CoH and you'll be dead before you finish a single sentence. You're not playing at that level if you've got time to type in an RTS, there should always be something you can do to maximize your time. As it is one of the biggest things about a competitive RTS is that there's TOO much to do to the point where being the best is in large part choosing what to micro more than how well you micro. That is what distinguishes RTSes among the competitive players the most. That there really is more to do than can be done so it becomes a balancing act of doing as much as possible in the right order of importance. Those decisions are what make RTSes so different for competition compared to something simple like an FPS.

Again - there's ALWAYS something that could be microed better in competitive play, the point is to choose what you micro. That's what makes a good player, not how well he can dragoon dance in SC or dodge grenades in CoH.

The best examples of constant micro in sins are capital ships, early on before you started playing Flak micro, even still probably the illum micro to maximize effectiveness, another important one not sure if it still is was constant micro of fighters/bombers. Properly microed fighters were at one point the best strategy in the game by far. And again, sins is a terribly slow game compared to most RTSes. CoH and SC are both far more demanding on the player.

Puppeteer
11-13-2009, 08:42 AM
try typing in CoH and you'll be dead before you finish a single sentence
Oh would you stop being so silly? Exaggeration really doesn't help.
VOIP can be useful to those who don't want to type, or can't type fast, but of course you can get away with just typing messages.

Josh Warner
11-13-2009, 08:55 AM
Oh would you stop being so silly? Exaggeration really doesn't help.
VOIP can be useful to those who don't want to type, or can't type fast, but of course you can get away with just typing messages.

It might sound like it, but with CoH it's actually one game where you can lose a match that quickly. Early on lose an entire squad and you've lost because of the way the respawn mechanic works and all it takes is one good flank or a grenade that you don't dodge for that to happen, CoH really does move that quickly in competitive play, my favorite RTS for competition since SC easily.

Of course most games aren't that fast by any means, but I was trying to make a point so I used the best example.

Puppeteer
11-13-2009, 12:55 PM
I do agree CoH is incredibly fast-paced, and an overall awesome game, but I still think there's time to spare about 2-5 seconds (depending on the length of the message) to type.

Josh Warner
11-13-2009, 02:49 PM
I do agree CoH is incredibly fast-paced, and an overall awesome game, but I still think there's time to spare about 2-5 seconds (depending on the length of the message) to type.

I mean when engaged in combat, not in general play. Typically speaking you could better use that time microing econ/moving to a better position to harass etc, but outside of combat yeah you won't really lose that quickly, it's just grenades/vehicles that can run infantry over that you really can't afford to sit still against for any length of time. It's always funny when you run down a panzershreck with a tank.

Argargeroth
11-14-2009, 04:19 PM
Apparently some people are getting the impression that I'm knockin on shooters and such. I pre-ordered both Left 4 Dead 2, and Modern Warfare 2. Call of duty rules!! I love it! And I can't wait top play L.4.D, Shooters are some of my favorite games. And I have been known to play some RPGs. All I was trying to say was " When are some good RTS games going to come out??" My first game was Warcraft 2, and and games like that are what will make me spend hours of my time not out partying or hitting on girls, which let's face it is always fun.:cool:

Liljagare
11-16-2009, 11:35 AM
Borderlands is the next best thing to my homemade applecider I've tried this year.. :D

Dragon Age in all its glory, but dang, shooters are fun sometimes!

Josh Warner
11-16-2009, 12:23 PM
Borderlands is the next best thing to my homemade applecider I've tried this year.. :D

Dragon Age in all its glory, but dang, shooters are fun sometimes!

Borderlands was great first time through, can't say I have any desire to play it anymore however, just doesn't draw me in like diablo did.

LiTos456
11-16-2009, 12:54 PM
Same although I still want to beat it... its funny. I just hadn't had the time...

Liljagare
11-19-2009, 06:00 AM
Well, it really shines in coop.. hate to say it, but bought a ps3 slim just for that.. :P

I can't believe how long it's been since the industry quit making coop for the PC, some were pretty darn fun.

Borderlands splitscreen is like crack, we can't quit.. :D "Oh, 3am? Gotta go to work in 2 hours, might as well just keep on playing.. " sort of crack.. :)

For some reason its more fun than playing on the two computers we have in the same room!