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slamelov
10-11-2009, 01:33 PM
I would like a great diplomacy system and not only "war and peace" options. May be some bar which changes with your attitudes, the bar tendence defines the AI reaction to the player.

Also, I would like a good economic system and not only a resource manager.

sneaky_squirrel
10-11-2009, 02:10 PM
If I remember correctly, they are planning to make diplomacy a bit more advanced.

Not sure about economy though.

slamelov
10-11-2009, 02:50 PM
Great. Any link with information about that?

sneaky_squirrel
10-11-2009, 03:11 PM
Sadly, no, feel free to look around the forums though.

Maybe you'll find something of interest.

Jean=A=Luc
10-11-2009, 03:27 PM
In the grim past of DoF there is only war (no diplomacy).

Darathor
10-11-2009, 04:45 PM
The economy system seems like it can be quite complex and full of micro if you want to maximize the amount of resources you want to get. There are several ways to get each type of resource.

wills370
10-12-2009, 03:24 AM
you will be playing agaisnt nations etc, online anyway so you will have friendly NPC city's aswell as the ability to make alliances. And borrow troops from other players. I havent got the link to this information but it is there somewhere.

Darvin
10-12-2009, 01:00 PM
I would like a great diplomacy system and not only "war and peace" options. May be some bar which changes with your attitudes, the bar tendence defines the AI reaction to the player.


That system was basically the diplomacy system in Sins of a Solar Empire. It was good for the first hour or so of gameplay, then it got boring and people turned "locked teams" on to disable it. You need quite a bit more depth than that to make it interesting, like why an attitude changes over time.

Josh Warner
10-12-2009, 01:43 PM
That system was basically the diplomacy system in Sins of a Solar Empire. It was good for the first hour or so of gameplay, then it got boring and people turned "locked teams" on to disable it. You need quite a bit more depth than that to make it interesting, like why an attitude changes over time.

Sins, I miss that game pre 1.03 or so. multiplayer anyway. The AI in that game was atrocious, so easy to exploit it. My favorite was sitting your fleet where they jump in, you killed a few then they'd all turn around and try to jump out but the AI almost always used group jump at that point so you pick off most of their fleet, was so sad.

As far as diplomacy yeah - it needs to either be zero diplomacy and fixed teams or something very advanced, one thing I recall about multiplayer however is that all matches in DoF will start out as a free for all, wish I could remember where I read that, was from one of the devs, may have been on DoFheaven, that and if it's still the case. I would think certain scenarios would require people starting together though.

ShadowyMoon
10-12-2009, 09:38 PM
Am I the only one who got Jean's joke? Either way, I'm sure the MMO mode will have a pretty good diplomacy system. (Or at least it should).

Josh Warner
10-12-2009, 11:09 PM
Am I the only one who got Jean's joke? Either way, I'm sure the MMO mode will have a pretty good diplomacy system. (Or at least it should).

A very obvious play on in the "In the grim darkness of the future there is only WAR" that is the hallmark of Warhammer 40,000.

Honestly for player versus player I don't see a need for a 'diplomacy' system unless it interacts with other mechanics designed with it in mind.

Joseph Visscher
10-13-2009, 12:02 AM
We might have several levels of diplomacy, currently we have 3:
Allies
npc cities allow trade

Neutral
No trade, battle can break out if someone attacks one another, but not automatically.

Enemy
Default enemy.

I want to see a several stage diplomacy, we might be able to make something like this:

Trusted Ally
An ally that you can call for help during a invasion of your homeland or help in an invasion of his homeland.

Ally
Siege together against other cities, trade, is an ally in regional combat, camp battles, co-op quests(if we are going to make some.;) ).

Common Enemy
A temporary Ally to assault a stronghold with, common enemy relations can improve to ally or be broken after taking the stronghold. Only Bribe Trading.

Neutral
No trade, battle can break out if someone attacks one another, but not automatically.

Passive Enemy
An enemy that doesn't want to fight but will if you come to close around their area, or do not give them what they want (such as a bribe). These would mostly include bandits, raiders, wildlife and other creeps. Only Bribe Trading.

Enemy
Default enemy. Only Bribe Trading.

Darvin
10-13-2009, 02:28 AM
The AI in that game was atrocious, so easy to exploit it. My favorite was sitting your fleet where they jump in, you killed a few then they'd all turn around and try to jump out but the AI almost always used group jump at that point so you pick off most of their fleet, was so sad.
You should see it now that you have starbases and minefields. The AI doesn't stand a chance. Pirates are a complete joke after the second or third raid. Of course, the next expansion is supposedly going to fix all this.

That said, multiplayer is as great as ever. The new patch really livened up the underused capital ships. The Sova and Kortul really got a lot of love in particular. I swear by the new and improved Kortul now. No questions asked, best combat capital ship in the game now.

one thing I recall about multiplayer however is that all matches in DoF will start out as a free for all
I doubt that; it makes no sense to remove what is essentially the standard setting for multiplayer skirmish.

Certainly there's a difference between MMO and skirmish diplomacy. Like a lot of things in DoF, these two need to be distinguished. Unfortunately it seems half the people in this thread are talking about one, half about the other. Anyways, good to hear about the MMO diplomacy from Joseph Visscher. Sounds like the kind of thing that will get hammered out in the beta.

Josh Warner
10-13-2009, 03:44 AM
You should see it now that you have starbases and minefields. The AI doesn't stand a chance. Pirates are a complete joke after the second or third raid. Of course, the next expansion is supposedly going to fix all this.

That said, multiplayer is as great as ever. The new patch really livened up the underused capital ships. The Sova and Kortul really got a lot of love in particular. I swear by the new and improved Kortul now. No questions asked, best combat capital ship in the game now.


I doubt that; it makes no sense to remove what is essentially the standard setting for multiplayer skirmish.

Certainly there's a difference between MMO and skirmish diplomacy. Like a lot of things in DoF, these two need to be distinguished. Unfortunately it seems half the people in this thread are talking about one, half about the other. Anyways, good to hear about the MMO diplomacy from Joseph Visscher. Sounds like the kind of thing that will get hammered out in the beta.

I was surprised when I read it, I'll try and find you the quote. But that's the way it was phrased. It mentioned deciding who to team up with once in the game, again, this didn't sound right but that's what was said.


As far as sins, hated single player :p AI was never fun to play against, too dumb. Multiplayer - the sova was the single best rush ship in the game by far. Drain their starter planet on a small-medium map and it was absolutely GG. Granted on larger maps it was absolute garbage. Kortul was good at what it did, nothing great but it soaked damage well. I quit before the 1.1 patch because of the way they were (mis)handling balance for multiplayer and kept making changes that effected both the mp and sp instead of balancing each separately, big mistake. I still facepalm at the nerf to siege ships that made games take forever.

If you really think it's better now I might give it another go, how many people are on mp these days? It was floundering sub-100s when I quit most of the day.



Systematically going through every dev post trying to find this quote on dofh, I know it wasn't here. Edit:2 Oh I found it, it was in reference to MMO mode and whether people started allied based upon their races, must have skimmed over it somehow. Not sure how I came to the wrong conclusion about it, but yeah I always thought that was off. That's good to know now.

Darvin
10-13-2009, 01:05 PM
Multiplayer - the sova was the single best rush ship in the game by far. Drain their starter planet on a small-medium map and it was absolutely GG.
A lot has changed since then. Level 1 embargo took a nerf, and on all but the smallest maps (ie, point blank) an unsupported Sova rush was now a reasonable strategy rather than overpowering. Moreover the expansion pack introduced "quick-start" where you begin the game with your capital shipyard and extractors built. This made Sova rushing practically worthless since any player worth their salt will be capable of pumping LRF by the time you actually arrive. The Sova was relegated to near-uselessness as a result, and the new buff greatly improved its combat capabilities to back up embargo. In fact, it's now feasible to build a Sova and not to pick embargo.

Kortul was good at what it did, nothing great but it soaked damage well.
Kortul is a beast now. Its damage absorbing capabilities make the Kol look like a amateur, and its disruptive strikes drain antimatter from many enemy targets ridiculously quickly, especially with power surge to increase its attack speed. Basically imagine if you combined a Kol and a Radiance and buffed them up on steroids; that is the new Kortul.

I still facepalm at the nerf to siege ships that made games take forever.
The recent patch buffed them back to a reasonable level of strength, though personally I still would rather go for a siege-class capital ship most of the time. Multiplayer balance is actually pretty good right now.

how many people are on mp these days?
Can't tell you how many people, but there are enough that you should be able to find some good games.

Darkes
10-20-2009, 10:30 AM
It's a great suggestion, im tired of in the must RTS games you only can win with wars and fights, i want to win using my great economic or my great culture :D.

I dont know if someone of you played Black and White 2, i love that game because you can win using the peace (with the great culture of your city). The bad of that game is they dont got skirmish, multiplayer, world editor and you can only be greeks xD.

Supreme
10-20-2009, 10:54 AM
You always win by having the best economy, in any RTS. Pumping out the most armies and resupplying them faster than the enemy is what usually wins a battle. (possible exception is total war but even here its a main part)

Granted I did like black and white because it gave some different options. ;)

Puppeteer
10-20-2009, 02:54 PM
There was mention of a sandbox mode at one point, but I'm not sure what happened there. That would be a nice feature.
However, in MMORTS - you can't 'win'!

Darathor
10-20-2009, 05:20 PM
In mmorts mode, you could make it your goal to become a huge economic empire and trade with other players for even more resources. You could have a small army and just pay off anyone who attacks you.

Supreme
10-21-2009, 01:28 AM
To be honest, when I find out, il make sure to attack every 20 minutes.

slamelov
10-26-2009, 05:43 PM
That system was basically the diplomacy system in Sins of a Solar Empire. It was good for the first hour or so of gameplay, then it got boring and people turned "locked teams" on to disable it. You need quite a bit more depth than that to make it interesting, like why an attitude changes over time.

I liked the Space Empires V system, by example. More complex than Sins of a Solar Empire. Europa Universalis II has a great system also, or Dominions, Supreme Ruler...