PDA

View Full Version : Community Mod Pack


sneaky_squirrel
10-04-2009, 03:16 PM
As many or none of you may know, Reverie plans for the game to have a version which cannot be modded, and a version where we can mod all we want, is that not correct?

Now here is the problem, there is only one modable version and there is going to be a lot of "Fan Modders" releasing cool new stuff for us to use in the editor :D, and many scenarios might try to take advantage of the new fan content, and then people will have to download them all after downloading the scenario making it a lot of work.

Some might not even bother downloading the scenario because of all the mods they have to get.


So I say, create a file which will hold all of these mods in one place, then all we have to do is simply, update our mods once in while by downloading this file which we will keep feeding as mods are released. (We might have to divide into categories later on though, since there might be some unnecessary mods)


Any suggestions, comments?

Josh Warner
10-04-2009, 03:18 PM
As many or none of you may know, Reverie plans for the game to have a version which cannot be modded, and a version where we can mod all we want, is that not correct?

Now here is the problem, there is only one modable version and there is going to be a lot of "Fan Modders" releasing cool new stuff for us to use in the editor :D, and many scenarios might try to take advantage of the new fan content, and then people will have to download them all after downloading the scenario making it a lot of work.

Some might not even bother downloading the scenario because of all the mods they have to get.


So I say, create a file which will hold all of these mods in one place, then all we have to do is simply, update our mods once in while by downloading this file which we will keep feeding as mods are released. (We might have to divide into categories later on though, since there might be some unnecessary mods)


Any suggestions, comments?

uh, you won't need to mod the game to play custom scenarios. Everything a map maker needs to do, he can do within the scenario editor itself. This is why you need to play more RTSes, this game will end up like wcIII/sc for maps. You can literally do a total conversion map within this editor since it's primarily scripts.

sneaky_squirrel
10-04-2009, 03:27 PM
But remember the game is perfectly modable, and they might make some cool new units, mayb golems, monsters or dragons.

Josh Warner
10-04-2009, 03:43 PM
But remember the game is perfectly modable, and they might make some cool new units, mayb golems, monsters or dragons.

You can create all of those within the editor, again, you need to play WCiii lol. You don't need to modify the game itself, just use the custom scenario editor.

In the AoE line of games the editor is like a handicapped child, seriously. I don't have the editor yet but from everything we've been told you should like those games be able to simply create a new unit within the map itself, new spells etc. and you should be able to import new skins/models as well to maps.

True mods for a game like this is unnecessary, anything you want to do can be done to the map itself, there's a chance I'm wrong I suppose since nobody but the devs have the editor, but the way they talk about it - I'm going to be shocked if it turns out to be worse than an editor that's well over 5 years old, I really can't wait till we can get our hands on it.

sneaky_squirrel
10-04-2009, 03:54 PM
So what you are saying is that we are going to be able to mod units like giant antelope bunnies with octopus arms or giant motherships within the editor, find it kinda hard to beleive as modding new units isn't that easy at all.

You do know that by mods I emant new content right?, not making a map.

Joseph Visscher
10-04-2009, 05:15 PM
I don't know where Haeso pulled that from his butt.

In theory there might be a way to create an entirely new unit from lua scn scripting but it will still require the exported model, animations, texture, sound files (unless you use existing sound files) and what ever else you need. The ability to store those within maps themselves is not yet let been tried even,,, it seems possible but the map's file size would become almost nontransferable, a good 1024x1024 texture is well over 1mb alone.

You can edit existing units quite well though. And make all new gameplay type games. Maps have the ability to load other maps, so map load streaming worlds and mod campaigns is possible.

Other than that you'll really want to be making units outside of the editor otherwise things just start feeling 'hacked'.

Josh Warner
10-04-2009, 05:34 PM
I don't know where Haeso pulled that from his butt.

In theory there might be a way to create an entirely new unit from lua scn scripting but it will still require the exported model, animations, texture, sound files (unless you use existing sound files) and what ever else you need. The ability to store those within maps themselves is not yet let been tried even,,, it seems possible but the map's file size would become almost nontransferable, a good 1024x1024 texture is well over 1mb alone.

You can edit existing units quite well though. And make all new gameplay type games. Maps have the ability to load other maps, so map load streaming worlds and mod campaigns is possible.

Other than that you'll really want to be making units outside of the editor otherwise things just start feeling 'hacked'.

It's a different kind of editor then, are you saying you can't 'copy' a unit then edit it? Because that's all you need, import skins/models on top of the copied unit. Creating a unit literally just copied an existing one, you gave it a new name, then you could edit every bit of info on it. Battlenet right now for custom scenarios is 8mb, and unless you're on dialup doesn't take long, that's several years of netcode refinement though. Is there a way to import textures/models to a map and replace the unit's? Again, I know it increases map size, but that's a minor concern for most people. It shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to Peer to Peer a map.

My assumptions come strictly from experiences in the past with other editors mind you. If using mods is necessary that's fine, just want to know what the custom scenarios are going to be working like then.

And I understand the size constraints, but 8mb years ago? Download and upload speeds have increased, it should be possible. What is the transfer method for user created content - is it from the host when you join or do you have to get maps third party? All in all, the option to create larger maps so you don't have to deal with the hassle of game modification entirely should be available. That's the entire reason battlenet custom games are so popular, is the ease of use. Mods are typically a pain in the ass by comparison. A very good mod manager would be fine I suppose, but you still have to have a way to tell everyone what mods are needed to play each map, which cuts down on the ease of use/ability to pick up and play anything. The trade off is ease of use, versus larger map sizes and the net code to transfer maps peer to peer within the lobby for a game.


Can work with it either way, I just assumed that's the way it would work. If we're going to have to work through mods, things will get messy and we will need something like this I suppose to keep ease of use in line, if we make things too complicated people aren't gonna bother playing the scenarios we end up making, hmm.


So what you are saying is that we are going to be able to mod units like giant antelope bunnies with octopus arms or giant motherships within the editor, find it kinda hard to beleive as modding new units isn't that easy at all.

You do know that by mods I emant new content right?, not making a map.

Everything I've mentioned so far has been done before in an actual editor, using scripts and the basics of the editor in WCIII nobody ever found the need to mod the game, the editor received an update from the players that expanded on it a little, but even without that it was very versatile. The drawbacks are just map size/needing hosts that can actually upload, unless people simply download the map third party and put it in a folder. Which is what they'd need to do with a mod system anyways yeah? A very easy to use mod manager and clear directions on what you need for each map mod wise will work, it's just more complicated, so lazy people will avoid bothering. The real reason Bnet is so popular is just because of the fact that anyone with an internet connection better than dialup can play anything, they don't need to go looking for mods and such. But we'll see, if we need to use mods to do everything we want we'll definitely need something to keep track of all the more commonly used ones, and maps to make it clear what they need to run, I've done both sides of this. Creating maps and everything within them, and mods, I prefer the former, but the latter can work if the community really works at it, otherwise it loses all of it's accessibility.

sneaky_squirrel
10-04-2009, 05:55 PM
Which is exactly why I made this thread to suggest a community mod pack (All mods on popular maps would be added on request of the map's creator), of course this won't be happening for awhile until we have active modders here in the forums that know how this stuff works.

And wow, creating a new unit through scripting, that's...mad.

And I am going to ask what Haeso mentioned:

Will there be a way to download "fan" maps in game?, totally unnecessary, but it would be very convenient. (From a list, be it popular, select, or just like everyone can upload there)

Oh and, for the average pro modder, is the creation of models easy? (Say making a Golem type body model with giant connected boulder or some kind of typhoon effect instead of having legs etc)

Haeso, I don't depend on Mods to make maps, haven't used a single one until now, but Mods would totally improve our maps regardless if were creative or not, now that I think about it, I'd love to sketch out some units that would be cool to see in the game ;p.

Josh Warner
10-04-2009, 06:04 PM
Which is exactly why I made this thread to suggest a community mod pack (All mods on popular maps would be added on request of the map's creator), of course this won't be happening for awhile until we have active modders here in the forums that know how this stuff works.

And wow, creating a new unit through scripting, that's...mad.

And I am going to ask what Haeso mentioned:

Will there be a way to download "fan" maps in game?, totally unnecessary, but it would be very convenient. (From a list, be it popular, select, or just like everyone can upload there)

Oh and, for the average pro modder, is the creation of models easy? (Say making a Golem type body model with giant connected boulder or some kind of typhoon effect instead of having legs etc)

The way Bnet did map transfers was simply in the lobby of the game, you could join any game, then it would DL from the host and anyone else that had the map - that's the best way to do it, but requires more advanced netcode and some other stuff. If we have to do it third party, well that's fine, we'll just need to keep track of all the popular stuff as best we can as a community.

As far as creating a new unit through scripting, that would be a little much, theoretically possible, but not all that practical. obviously we'll be able to edit existing units extensively, I just wonder if we'll be able to at the expense of map size be able to copy a unit, give it a new name, then modify it. It can quickly increase map size, but adds tons of versatility. Have to rethink some of the ways I was going to be doing things for a custom project hmm.. Can't wait to see the editor, really can't.

Models are difficult, retexturing(meshing) is easy. That's universal for all games, at least relatively speaking.

Edit: I'm really quite interested to see how this all works for custom scenarios that change the entire scope of the game, granted I don't think I'll be focusing on them considering MMORTS mode, but it should be interesting. As said I've done it using every way possible, mods and otherwise, I really can't wait to see how it all turns out.. Oh and sorry for derailing this with an assumption. It has lead to some new interesting information and questions at least. Really don't need any of this stuff for the internship since it's mostly quests, but I'm still interested, I used to really love creating custom things.

sneaky_squirrel
10-04-2009, 09:57 PM
Yeah AoM has the same donwload system, but it would be kinda cool to have a page (AoE3 Online had tabs for News, Game List, Quick Match up, Chats, Home Cities and Clan (With clan chat and message board).

Would be cool if there would be a tab where you could see the latest or most popular maps (Players would rate up and down maybe), but that might be too complicated.

Josh Warner
10-05-2009, 12:36 AM
Yeah AoM has the same donwload system, but it would be kinda cool to have a page (AoE3 Online had tabs for News, Game List, Quick Match up, Chats, Home Cities and Clan (With clan chat and message board).

Would be cool if there would be a tab where you could see the latest or most popular maps (Players would rate up and down maybe), but that might be too complicated.

I'd love both of them, really. I like the idea of a community spotlight thing, but it's really important it's done in game for maximum exposure to it rather than a third party, have everyone vote for maps on a scale, and then make it sortable by number of votes, author, map name or rating on the scale.

wills370
10-05-2009, 02:45 AM
I'd love both of them, really. I like the idea of a community spotlight thing, but it's really important it's done in game for maximum exposure to it rather than a third party, have everyone vote for maps on a scale, and then make it sortable by number of votes, author, map name or rating on the scale.

Sounds like a sound plan of action. Would be best done in a number of polls though i beleive however.

LiTos456
10-05-2009, 12:58 PM
And of course everyone will use dofsource to upload and host all their awesome mods. :D
</advertise>

wills370
10-05-2009, 01:59 PM
And of course everyone will use dofsource to upload and host all their awesome mods. :D
</advertise>

Lol yes indeed. Where else is better then DOfsource. (apart form this forum ofcoarse:P)

Andy Joslin
10-05-2009, 04:11 PM
It's a different kind of editor then, are you saying you can't 'copy' a unit then edit it? Because that's all you need, import skins/models on top of the copied unit. Creating a unit literally just copied an existing one, you gave it a new name, then you could edit every bit of info on it. Battlenet right now for custom scenarios is 8mb, and unless you're on dialup doesn't take long, that's several years of netcode refinement though. Is there a way to import textures/models to a map and replace the unit's? Again, I know it increases map size, but that's a minor concern for most people. It shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to Peer to Peer a map.

This is our first game. We have not made any big steps to support fan-mods yet, but still our engine easily lends itself to modding. We are trying to get the game done during development, not as much to work to support modders later on (though we do try to cater to them when the choice comes). Later on things like you said could perhaps be added, ie 'attaching' a new unit to a scenario file (our scenario files are just zips openable in WinRAR after all). But improvements like this most likely will come in late beta, or in a patch, or perhaps never.

LiTos456
10-05-2009, 04:22 PM
Lol yes indeed. Where else is better then DOfsource. (apart form this forum ofcoarse:P)

Wait huh? I mean hosting. This forum can't host your files and mods :P

Josh Warner
10-05-2009, 04:57 PM
This is our first game. We have not made any big steps to support fan-mods yet, but still our engine easily lends itself to modding. We are trying to get the game done during development, not as much to work to support modders later on (though we do try to cater to them when the choice comes). Later on things like you said could perhaps be added, ie 'attaching' a new unit to a scenario file (our scenario files are just zips openable in WinRAR after all). But improvements like this most likely will come in late beta, or in a patch, or perhaps never.

It's not a big deal for me since I'll be playing the MMORTS/working on that hopefully, but for the custom scenario people the ability to make new units and add textures/models directly to a map pretty much allows total conversions without mods, it's one of the few things scripting can't do effectively. It's definitely something you should look into for a patch later on after release. The community will add so much to the longevity of the game if supported well, but MMORTS comes first of course as the main draw to the game. The fact that the editor is primarily designed with scripting in mind already makes it very powerful, it just needs a few basic features to make it fantastic so very few projects will require actual mods, which makes the custom scenario scene way more accessible which is the most important thing if we want it to be popular. The ability to join a game and play without worrying about anything at all is a huge boon to the community, so many more people will play custom games than modded games.

JDmino
10-07-2009, 11:47 PM
Lol yes indeed. Where else is better then DOfsource. (apart form this forum ofcoarse:P)

Ummmmmm...Maybe Dofheaven?

I prefer this site to dofsource though.

As for the mods idea by sneaky, I agree, a subfolder for storing mods is a great idea!

wills370
10-08-2009, 02:19 AM
It's not a big deal for me since I'll be playing the MMORTS/working on that hopefully, but for the custom scenario people the ability to make new units and add textures/models directly to a map pretty much allows total conversions without mods, it's one of the few things scripting can't do effectively. It's definitely something you should look into for a patch later on after release. The community will add so much to the longevity of the game if supported well, but MMORTS comes first of course as the main draw to the game. The fact that the editor is primarily designed with scripting in mind already makes it very powerful, it just needs a few basic features to make it fantastic so very few projects will require actual mods, which makes the custom scenario scene way more accessible which is the most important thing if we want it to be popular. The ability to join a game and play without worrying about anything at all is a huge boon to the community, so many more people will play custom games than modded games.

Ummmmmm...Maybe Dofheaven?

I prefer this site though.

As for the mods idea by sneaky, I agree, a subfolder for storing mods is a great idea!

just signed up, and yes the subfolder idea seems to be the most apropiate of all the options, would be easily transferabble also,

JDmino
10-08-2009, 03:41 AM
I was meant to say I prefer this to Dofsource, oops:p. Cool, hope to see you around there.

LiTos456
10-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Ummmmmm...Maybe Dofheaven?


Aw come on that's just not nice!

But yes the community folder does sound interesting... *tries to stay on topic*

JDmino
10-08-2009, 02:13 PM
Aw come on that's just not nice!

But yes the community folder does sound interesting... *tries to stay on topic*

And its noce to advertise DoFsource as better then DoFH? That is a bit hypocritical. And you have to admit, heavengames has had a lot more experience with new games and keeping forums alive.

Puppeteer
10-08-2009, 03:27 PM
Enough! Keep the rivalry of this thread, and off this forum altogether!

sneaky_squirrel
10-08-2009, 03:41 PM
People, lets just agree that both sites are equally good ;p.

JDmino
10-08-2009, 11:10 PM
Enough! Keep the rivalry of this thread, and off this forum altogether!

Sorry puppet...he started it :p.

Alright Sneaky...

sneaky_squirrel
10-08-2009, 11:13 PM
Things got a bit too quiet, can you start fighting again?, oh right, moral values, forgot you humans liked those.

I have a very important event coming up soon, better go to bed early.

LiTos456
10-09-2009, 01:41 PM
I took it to PMs.
Now, everyone should get back to the original subject.