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View Full Version : Firing while moving, missing targets, splash damage, etc.


AJP
09-10-2007, 04:21 PM
In DoF, will units, like for example, a horse-archer, or a few archers in a moving siege tower, fire while moving, or will there at least be modding support for it? I thought it was pretty lame for AoE to have units like horse archers and dragoons that have to be stationary to deal out damage. I mean, realistically, the only reason such a unit was so effective, was because of its mobility.

In AoE 3, units just don't miss. ******ed. Will DoF Ranged units be 100% accurate?

Again with AoE, splash damage(ie, using heavy cav/elephants to mow through
infantry) was a miss. It would seem kind of ******ed to watch a unit like an Ogre fight each unit one by one, rather than swinging his club through ranks of units. Will this be something that you guys are looking at?

BTW, I haven't played Warcraft or BFME, so I don't know how any of these ideas works there. I do know that they work in Halo Wars(at least it looks like it) RTW, and M2TW pretty well.

Darvin
09-10-2007, 05:13 PM
Warcraft III had no "shooting while moving", either, although given their game mechanics it would have been obscenely overpowered. As for inaccuracy, that was only an issue if you were fighting uphill, were under the effect of the "curse" spell, or attacking a unit that had a special ability to evade attacks.

BFME was a little better, although it still didn't have "shoot while moving". Mind you, I did see some mods manage to implement this for the battlewagon in BFME2 (think of a chariot with archers on the back). They also had modding support for accuracy, but in general they were 100% accurate as well.

I do think that DoF should take after the Total War series when it comes to these things. They have it right, although I do find a little too much luck with regards to catapults. I've seen units approach without losing more than a dozen individuals, but sometimes I've seen people lose half their army before they get into the melee. Too much luck there, so I think DoF should look for a better balance in that regard.

olauwers
09-11-2007, 12:03 PM
Seeing how radically different the cavalry in this game is, I think it should be possible to have units shoot whilst riding. However, to balance things, I think you should make cavalry units less fast/more difficult to direct/less defensive whilst shooting, as you can't keep your eyes on the road and shoot at the same time. Or you should put two units on one piece of cavalry. One can ride, the other can shoot. That would also higher the cost (since you now need 2 units in stead of 1) of "shooting-whilst-riding"-cavalry.

Joseph Visscher
09-11-2007, 12:52 PM
In DoF, will units, like for example, a horse-archer, or a few archers in a moving siege tower, fire while moving, or will there at least be modding support for it? I thought it was pretty lame for AoE to have units like horse archers and dragoons that have to be stationary to deal out damage. I mean, realistically, the only reason such a unit was so effective, was because of its mobility.


Dof better dam rights add that lol, i am sure it will it would be lame if they cant.


In AoE 3, units just don't miss. ******ed. Will DoF Ranged units be 100% accurate?

No they wont be 100% accurate, infact currently goblin archers must be blind, they miss so much, only good in massive groups.


Again with AoE, splash damage(ie, using heavy cav/elephants to mow through
infantry) was a miss. It would seem kind of ******ed to watch a unit like an Ogre fight each unit one by one, rather than swinging his club through ranks of units. Will this be something that you guys are looking at?


Pretty sure about this one, yes it should and or will.



BTW, I haven't played Warcraft or BFME, so I don't know how any of these ideas works there. I do know that they work in Halo Wars(at least it looks like it) RTW, and M2TW pretty well.

bfme1-2 has all of the above. not sure about warcraft.

Ryan Zelazny
09-11-2007, 01:57 PM
In DoF, will units, like for example, a horse-archer, or a few archers in a moving siege tower, fire while moving, or will there at least be modding support for it? I thought it was pretty lame for AoE to have units like horse archers and dragoons that have to be stationary to deal out damage. I mean, realistically, the only reason such a unit was so effective, was because of its mobility.

It's almost a certainty that we will support this, as we are going for more realistic combat, this is definately something we are looking at.


In AoE 3, units just don't miss. ******ed. Will DoF Ranged units be 100% accurate?

In short, no DoF units will not be 100% accurate, ranged or otherwise. I have explained accuracy and combat mechanics in more detail in another post, here is a quote:

Combat is basically controlled by "dice rolls", much like RPG combat, you will have dice rolls for attack and defense, between the two combatting units. I'm not completely sure on the exact math, but I think how good the attack or defending action works will be determined on the difference between the rolls. E.g. Attack rolls 8, Defense rolls 12, Defending unit would Block & Parry the attack, or Attack Rolls 9, Defense rolls 5, Attack does extra damage from lack of defense.

The same system basically goes for ranged units as well, however ranged units are also effected by visibility (both line of sight and light), range, weapon (tech upgrades), and specific traits to the race they are.


Again with AoE, splash damage(ie, using heavy cav/elephants to mow through
infantry) was a miss. It would seem kind of ******ed to watch a unit like an Ogre fight each unit one by one, rather than swinging his club through ranks of units. Will this be something that you guys are looking at?


We have taken multiple opponents and positioning into account with our combat mechanics, the AI that is going to control how a unit reacts to this is very well done and you will be pleasantly suprised when you get a chance to play it.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-12-2007, 01:18 PM
Will you be able to upgrade the units so their splash damage and accuracy is greater?

Thanks

SPARROW94
09-18-2007, 05:12 PM
kewl ideas are spewing up

Hoenir
09-19-2007, 05:47 AM
Will you be able to upgrade the units so their splash damage and accuracy is greater?
Units gain level and learn new skills RTS style
So this probably means yes ;)

The Witch King of Angmar
09-19-2007, 01:18 PM
So this probably means yes ;)

Sweet. Imagine like an ogre that is uber ranked up how many units he'd kill with just one rock. :D

Joseph Visscher
09-19-2007, 01:45 PM
Sweet. Imagine like an ogre that is uber ranked up how many units he'd kill with just one rock. :D

Or a swing from his club..... oh yea....

Darvin
09-19-2007, 01:46 PM
The only think to be thankful for when something reaches max rank is that they can't get any stronger! Sounds like some units are going to become very fearsome as they level up.

The Witch King of Angmar
09-19-2007, 05:09 PM
The only think to be thankful for when something reaches max rank is that they can't get any stronger! Sounds like some units are going to become very fearsome as they level up.

Yeah. I can't wait to see all the destructive abilities the dragons get as they level up.

Puppeteer
09-20-2007, 02:50 PM
As archer units level up, it would be cool if there accuracy became better too :)

The Witch King of Angmar
09-20-2007, 03:49 PM
As archer units level up, it would be cool if there accuracy became better too :)

It will I think and so will the range of it.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 04:39 PM
so elvs might be an faction to look out for

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 05:20 PM
Depends if Reverie are going for the typical archer heavy Elves like in most games.

jap88
10-02-2007, 05:26 PM
Stereotypically the elves in games are always uber archers that rely on stealth and speed and relative to other factions have low hp and armor.

Ryan Zelazny
10-02-2007, 05:30 PM
Elves will have the best archers, and the best mages, and the fastest mounts which can also attack... plus I think they look the coolest.

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 05:31 PM
Best archers+best mages. Seems like the mages are going to be studying a bit of the fire spells.

jap88
10-02-2007, 05:41 PM
uh-oh, i see a potential problem. If a team can have a "better" mage than the other team, and since magic is such a large part of the game, it occurs to me that Elves are going to be the instant OP faction in the game. Stronger mages will basicallly allow a much stronger faction than normally possible. I hope there is a counter to mages...

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 05:44 PM
I think elven mages will be more vurnable to standart attacks than the ones of the other races.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 05:45 PM
yes my uber pwning orc army

jap88
10-02-2007, 05:47 PM
won't matter if they can't get to the mage with magic due to the elves' uber-mages or get at them with a standard attack under a hail of arrows that probably has a longer range than anything any other faction has.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 05:48 PM
won't matter if they can't get to the mage with magic due to the elves' uber-mages or get at them with a standard attack under a hail of arrows that probably has a longer range than anything any other faction has.

Yeah but imagine if the army can break through. The elves are done for.

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 05:49 PM
An extract from the book "Dealing with those pesky Elves" by Draco Maximus.
"A handy way of getting rid of mages is sending a dragon to swoop in and set their robes on fire before they know what hit them."
I think that should do unless archers are very powerfull versus dragons.

jap88
10-02-2007, 05:50 PM
Archers get a bonus against dragons in flight i believe. Plus, only the dragon faction has dragons, lol. Somewhere i think it was ryan said that dragons were vulnerable to arrows.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 05:50 PM
An extract from the book "Dealing with those pesky Elves" by Draco Maximus.
"A handy way of getting rid of mages is sending a dragon to swoop in and set their robes on fire before they know what hit them."
I think that should do unless archers are very powerfull versus dragons.

They probably will be and that's where drakes come in. Lol there are like 15 people on right now.

Ryan Zelazny
10-02-2007, 05:54 PM
By "best" mages, we mean that elves have the ability to learn more spells than any other race, and this is only the High Elven Archmage.

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 05:55 PM
I thought you meant that they had better stats. More spells should be too much of a problem balance wise.

jap88
10-02-2007, 05:58 PM
yeah, i assumed better stats as well. Ok, that should'nt be much of a problem then.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-02-2007, 06:03 PM
yeah, i assumed better stats as well. Ok, that should'nt be much of a problem then.

It still gives you an edge though.

ShadowyMoon
10-02-2007, 06:07 PM
But not an unbeatable one unlike a stat boost.

SPARROW94
10-02-2007, 06:16 PM
like i said before i would bring my kick @$$ orc army and eat you up and your stinky mage

The Witch King of Angmar
10-03-2007, 02:49 PM
like i said before i would bring my kick @$$ orc army and eat you up and your stinky mage

Not if they had like a bizillion archers hidden in the trees.

SPARROW94
10-03-2007, 05:53 PM
then like i said 3 months ago i would bring my orc shamon and burn your stinky trees

The Witch King of Angmar
10-04-2007, 04:04 PM
then like i said 3 months ago i would bring my orc shamon and burn your stinky trees

He would be dead once he was within 30 feet of them.

SPARROW94
10-04-2007, 05:12 PM
arrgh thats what you said 3 months ago

Gareth121
10-13-2007, 10:21 AM
It's possible that some units an be given counter-skills for ranged attacks in the form of extra defense, i.e. a human unit with a shield.

This could also happen for magic attacks, but I'm not so sure right now.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-13-2007, 05:53 PM
It's possible that some units an be given counter-skills for ranged attacks in the form of extra defense, i.e. a human unit with a shield.

This could also happen for magic attacks, but I'm not so sure right now.

I don't quite understand what you're saying.

Gareth121
10-16-2007, 03:23 PM
I was just speaking in regards to balancing out troop power.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-17-2007, 03:25 PM
I was just speaking in regards to balancing out troop power.

Ok I get it now.

Puppeteer
10-18-2007, 11:41 AM
An orc or dragon mantlet would be awesome :D

The Witch King of Angmar
10-18-2007, 03:44 PM
An orc or dragon mantlet would be awesome :D

What is a mantlet?

Gareth121
10-18-2007, 10:03 PM
Copied from Wikipedia:

A mantlet was a large shield or portable shelter used for stopping arrows or bullets, in medieval warfare. A mantlet could be mounted on a wheeled carriage and protected one or several soldiers.

frankein_fish
10-19-2007, 03:40 AM
Nice it would be great with some units that are similar to the crossbow mens in medieval total war 2

Puppeteer
10-19-2007, 04:55 AM
That's what a mantlet is ;)

Kostia Kaploon
10-19-2007, 07:01 AM
wow thats really cool :D

Gareth121
10-19-2007, 08:38 AM
Mediaval 2: Total War = <3

frankein_fish
10-19-2007, 08:45 AM
that kind of units on a wall :D :D :D

Puppeteer
10-19-2007, 09:23 AM
eugh total war....
anyway I got the ideas from ye old Stronghold 1 game ;)

frankein_fish
10-19-2007, 09:58 AM
eugh total war....
anyway I got the ideas from ye old Stronghold 1 game ;)

I LOVE STRONGHOLD (No conspiracy i swear) :rolleyes:

iceblast
10-19-2007, 10:18 AM
stronghold was a legendary game :)

anyway i think this is a good idea because not many rts games to this

Puppeteer
10-19-2007, 12:47 PM
I like the way native americans had canoes that could be used as mantlets when attacking other tribe. perhaps elves should have some elegant boat like that? or an orc raft lashed togheter with rope that could be a cruder version

The Witch King of Angmar
10-19-2007, 05:48 PM
I like the way native americans had canoes that could be used as mantlets when attacking other tribe. perhaps elves should have some elegant boat like that? or an orc raft lashed togheter with rope that could be a cruder version

Yeah that sounds realistic.

Puppeteer
10-21-2007, 05:23 AM
funny the way you combined "orcs and fantasy" with "realism" :D

The Witch King of Angmar
10-21-2007, 07:40 PM
funny the way you combined "orcs and fantasy" with "realism" :D

They're real to me. :D

frankein_fish
10-22-2007, 03:19 AM
They're real to me. :D

Who knows whats real maybe we are in some holografic device :eek: ........
Well maybe :rolleyes:

Gareth121
10-22-2007, 10:42 AM
Matrix, anyone?

Puppeteer
10-25-2007, 11:40 AM
doughtnuts?

The Witch King of Angmar
10-25-2007, 01:08 PM
Coffee? Anyway, back on topic, would ships be able to fire while moving?

Gareth121
10-25-2007, 01:29 PM
It would make sense to me. Archers can readil fire while on the deck.

What I would like to see is some sort of grapple feature where a ship could attach itself to another and board troops.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-25-2007, 03:36 PM
It would make sense to me. Archers can readil fire while on the deck.

What I would like to see is some sort of grapple feature where a ship could attach itself to another and board troops.

Or just try to jump across the water on to the ship. :D

Gareth121
10-25-2007, 03:55 PM
I have to admit, that would make me laugh. :D

Ryan Zelazny
10-25-2007, 06:22 PM
I could picture Orcs or Goblins trying to leap aboard ships without any ropes...

Anyway, crew on ships will be able to fire while moving, such as archers or crossbow men. However only certain types of artillery could be used while moving, such as cannons. Heavier things that would take more precise aim and control like catapults and such will require the ship to be still.

Darvin
10-25-2007, 10:40 PM
I've wanted to see boarding in naval battles since... well, I can't remember how long exactly ^_^

But yeah, I honestly think that the problem with most naval implementations is that they end up being a side-attraction, or some independent system within the game. I feel they should be a different theater of war, a different scenario for the same units.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-26-2007, 01:17 PM
I've wanted to see boarding in naval battles since... well, I can't remember how long exactly ^_^

But yeah, I honestly think that the problem with most naval implementations is that they end up being a side-attraction, or some independent system within the game. I feel they should be a different theater of war, a different scenario for the same units.

Key example is BFME2. Like in AOE I think a navy should be a must at times to win, not just another side feature.

SvN
10-26-2007, 02:22 PM
BFME2s naval system was completely useless!

if naval is included in this game, make it so that you must use ships to win, as The witch king said.

i would love to see a lot of sea maps, the Mythador map seems to have an archipelago so thats good and also sea creatures:D

Darvin
10-26-2007, 07:15 PM
As I said earlier, I think the key to a good naval system is making it an extension of your land-based army, not something separate. Your boats are just floating piles of wood; it's the units on them that do the fighting. In this sense, the naval battle is just a different environment in which you use the same units. Obviously cavalry and big monsters might be at a disadvantage, but factions dependent on these things could be compensated with superior boats or amphibious creatures.

No one has ever done that well; the naval battles have always been separated from the land variety. The Romans were all about ingenuity. The Carthaginians had an advantage over them at sea, so the Romans boarded their ships with heavy infantry and captured them. They took their own advantage to the enemy. I think a page from realism would be good for gameplay here: the naval battle shouldn't be about creating something entirely different, it should be about importing the same strengths and strategies to a new theater.

Puppeteer
10-27-2007, 03:58 AM
How about you have to man the vessel so it becomes a ship that attacks/moves. For example the superior greek Tyrieme had 3-decks of hundreds of slaves oaring the boat, which made it ram down others very speedily and archers on the deck firing.

The Witch King of Angmar
10-27-2007, 12:26 PM
How about you have to man the vessel so it becomes a ship that attacks/moves. For example the superior greek Tyrieme had 3-decks of hundreds of slaves oaring the boat, which made it ram down others very speedily and archers on the deck firing.

That sounds like a good idea. Maybe laborers could row it since they are already made for work.

frankein_fish
10-27-2007, 12:43 PM
That sounds like a good idea. Maybe laborers could row it since they are already made for work.


lol, you sounds like a dictator :p .... But i agree with you

DaFatalGigabyte
11-26-2007, 03:56 PM
He would be dead once he was within 30 feet of them.

...Which reminds me of a question I had. Will there be "wall bearers"? If so, will you be able to tell a group of units to form up with these defenders so they don't get totally pwned by archers? And if they will be in and you can form them up, I hope they go to the side that's being harassed the most, default being the side of the direction of movement.

Also for orcs, are there "creepy crawlies"? Just wondering because that's what Sparrow will probably use, if they crawl quickly, to mass the crap out of archers. If there are creepy crawlies(are they the goblins?), will they be able to climb up cliffs? Perfect for getting at archers that wanted a safe and high spot. No freebies today! Not to mention they won't be able to see the goblins while they're coming up the cliff? Or you'd have arrows going through rock and that's literally getting old.

The Witch King of Angmar
11-26-2007, 07:08 PM
Walls do have barriers. Look through some screens and you'll see Elf walls with them.